New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Navy_Pete]

CBC is going to CBC.

Every piece by CBC must be read with a eye that it is a Liberal PR piece first and foremost. After that if any real info is presented is mostly by accident or happenstance.

It seems to be something Trudeau stated in this case; but would take the excerpt with a grain of salt unless there is a full quote. Highly likely it's a spin/ or misunderstanding from the PMO as that's something Davie has been pushing for years as a straight up lie.

Trudeau took a shot at the Conservatives, saying that the government of former prime minister Stephen Harper "chose to exclude Chantier-Davie" from the strategy. He said that his Liberal government has been working since its election in 2015 to bring Davie into the fold.


Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, right, responds to reporters' questions at a news conference after announcing major investments in shipbuilding on Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at the Davie shipyard in Lévis, Que. Quebec Premier Francois Legault, left, looks on. (Jacques Boissinot/The Canadian Press)
"The Conservatives were not interested in doing this," Trudeau said in French.

 

[Kirkhill]

It seems to be something Trudeau stated in this case; but would take the excerpt with a grain of salt unless there is a full quote. Highly likely it's a spin/ or misunderstanding from the PMO as that's something Davie has been pushing for years as a straight up lie.

Was Adm Norman asked his opinion?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Was Adm Norman asked his opinion?

He was (wrongly) run through the ringer over Asterix, which has nothing to do with the NSS (although it's reported under the annual report for reasons).

Davie bid on the non-combat package and lost. I read their bid, it was scored fairly but they placed 3rd for a good reason.

 

[GR66]

He was (wrongly) run through the ringer over Asterix, which has nothing to do with the NSS (although it's reported under the annual report for reasons).

Davie bid on the non-combat package and lost. I read their bid, it was scored fairly but they placed 3rd for a good reason.

According the the Canadian Defence Review they are getting to negotiate for the contracts for six program icebreakers and one Polar Class icebreaker.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced Chantier Davie of Lévis, Quebec, will become the third strategic partner under the National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSS). This agreement between the company and the federal government marks the start of negotiations for contracts to support Canada's future shipbuilding needs and create good jobs. This will include the construction of six program icebreakers and one polar icebreaker for the Canadian Coast Guard. These ships will play an essential role in the growth of Canada's economy, supporting year-round marine trade, and will serve as essential platforms for search and rescue and environmental response operations.

 

[Halifax Tar]

He was (wrongly) run through the ringer over Asterix, which has nothing to do with the NSS (although it's reported under the annual report for reasons).

Davie bid on the non-combat package and lost. I read their bid, it was scored fairly but they placed 3rd for a good reason.

Arguably, our bidding process is flawed if you compare the serviceability of the AOPs with Asterix.

 

[MilEME09]

According the the Canadian Defence Review they are getting to negotiate for the contracts for six program icebreakers and one Polar Class icebreaker.

I wonder how the buying of Helsinki shipyards will affect this?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Arguably, our bidding process is flawed if you compare the serviceability of the AOPs with Asterix.

Not really, Asterix is an old ship that Davie bolted on some new equipment and a superstructure to (which was built in Europe and shipped over) so it wasn't a build, and still had a number of defects. If Davie had to design and build Asterix from scratch it would have taken much longer, cost a lot more and had a lot more quality issues (see STJ and TOR). I think it was 'under budget and on time' because the budget and schedule were generous. The initial NSS schedules were a pipe dream and the initial estimates an optimistic ROM.

You can't reasonably compare the two, and fully expect the first ice breakers to be the same story as AOPs from ISI and the CCG ships from VSY (which is a separate yard from VSL in Victoria). That would be like saying a garage that fixed a car could design and build a car.

Davie isn't even the top yard repairing our ships, so not sure why everyone is expecting them to be so good at building ships. Their unions seem even less flexible than the two coastal ones, so best of luck getting flexibility like having electricians able to tack on studs for cable brackets, having a lot of trades doing basic rigging, and all the other efficiencies that cut down on the labour hours with some cross training on basics.

 

[Good2Golf]

Again, this fiction keeps getting propagated; Davie put in a bid for NSS but was 3rd place, with only 2 spots (combatant and non-combatant).

Wish they would stop this as there is a big box full of the Davie bid sitting in the NSS office with all the scoring and was considered. They just lost.

I believe the verb and tense you were looking for was, “They Bombardier’d.”

 

[Navy_Pete]

I believe the verb and tense you were looking for was, “They Bombardier’d.”

I don't know, it wasn't a bad attempt, but it just wasn't comparable. Curious to see what kind of upgrades they will do though; they still lack some of the modern shipbuilding facilities they would have needed under the 2010 standard for the shipyards, and will need to figure out how to do that construction around the planned CPF DWPs.

 

[Spencer100]

I don't know, it wasn't a bad attempt, but it just wasn't comparable. Curious to see what kind of upgrades they will do though; they still lack some of the modern shipbuilding facilities they would have needed under the 2010 standard for the shipyards, and will need to figure out how to do that construction around the planned CPF DWPs.

I think the Helsinki yard is a key piece of the puzzle. It's one of the most experienced icebreaker yards in the world. I would expect to a ton of Fins with Canadian work permits in the near future. I which in the long run would be a good thing....got to learn from someone.

 

[tomydoom]

I believe the verb and tense you were looking for was, “They Bombardier’d.”

Why are you insulting artillery junior NCOs?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Not really, Asterix is an old ship that Davie bolted on some new equipment and a superstructure to (which was built in Europe and shipped over) so it wasn't a build, and still had a number of defects. If Davie had to design and build Asterix from scratch it would have taken much longer, cost a lot more and had a lot more quality issues (see STJ and TOR). I think it was 'under budget and on time' because the budget and schedule were generous. The initial NSS schedules were a pipe dream and the initial estimates an optimistic ROM.

You can't reasonably compare the two, and fully expect the first ice breakers to be the same story as AOPs from ISI and the CCG ships from VSY (which is a separate yard from VSL in Victoria). That would be like saying a garage that fixed a car could design and build a car.

Davie isn't even the top yard repairing our ships, so not sure why everyone is expecting them to be so good at building ships. Their unions seem even less flexible than the two coastal ones, so best of luck getting flexibility like having electricians able to tack on studs for cable brackets, having a lot of trades doing basic rigging, and all the other efficiencies that cut down on the labour hours with some cross training on basics.

All I'm saying is one ship is deployed, again, and doing it's business. The other ones aren't.

 

[Navy_Pete]

All I'm saying is one ship is deployed, again, and doing it's business. The other ones aren't.

Sure, and I would agree that Davie is a better repair yard than ISI, but they haven't demonstrated they can build ships.

Would be hilarious if they somehow build the ships in Finland and completely undercut the point of NSS and build in Canada. I would expect some pretty angry shouts and threats of lawsuits/CITT complaints on the GoC if they did that. THere are a lot of NSS requirements that really handcuff the build yards that didn't apply to Asterix, but if they get the icebreakers under NSS with a waiver for all that will be a totally different playing field.

 

[suffolkowner]

The reality is Washington and Irving cant handle the work by design as Ian Mack has admitted was an error in their assumptions going into the NSS. The result is we have 3 yards to engage in the recapitalization of the RCN and CCG ships. All three will build ice capable ships even if Seaspan doesnt do the Dief. The other two yards havent distinguished themselves overly and Heddle is on its second or third chance as well. Theres been shenanigans building the type 26 too so seems like shipbuilding is something to keep an eye on especially when we keep doing this start and stop thing. Hopefully when all is said and done we will have 3 yards that can compete for government work or at least two

 

[DBNSG]

I don't know, it wasn't a bad attempt, but it just wasn't comparable. Curious to see what kind of upgrades they will do though; they still lack some of the modern shipbuilding facilities they would have needed under the 2010 standard for the shipyards, and will need to figure out how to do that construction around the planned CPF DWPs.

It will be interesting how any Funds sent to Davie to "upgrade the facilities" will be perceived and screamed about and rightly so by Seaspan and Irving. Tis the Quebec way I suppose.

 

[dapaterson]

Irving and Seaspan have both received lavish subsidies to modernize their facilities.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Irving and Seaspan have both received lavish subsidies to modernize their facilities.

Seaspan hasn't received anything; they funded that all internally.

Irving got a forgivable, interest free loan from the province, which pissed a lot of people off, but was technically in the rules, which was there was no federal funding for the upgrades.

Because it was supposed to be funded by the profits, the shipyards got some guarantees on the work packages, which basically had a penalty to pay them back for the modernization investments if the expected profits from the builds weren't realized because ships were cut. That's why a replacement for Polar in the non-combat package was put in, as otherwise we would have paid out a partial penalty.

If Davie gets something from the QC provincial level, that would be similar to Irving, but if they get federal funding that would be a massive change from the existing Umbrella agreements from the initial contract.

 

[suffolkowner]

Seaspan hasn't received anything; they funded that all internally.

Irving got a forgivable, interest free loan from the province, which pissed a lot of people off, but was technically in the rules, which was there was no federal funding for the upgrades.

Because it was supposed to be funded by the profits, the shipyards got some guarantees on the work packages, which basically had a penalty to pay them back for the modernization investments if the expected profits from the builds weren't realized because ships were cut. That's why a replacement for Polar in the non-combat package was put in, as otherwise we would have paid out a partial penalty.

If Davie gets something from the QC provincial level, that would be similar to Irving, but if they get federal funding that would be a massive change from the existing Umbrella agreements from the initial contract.

Im pretty sure I read somewhere that Quebec is loaning Davie $500 million

 

[Navy_Pete]

Im pretty sure I read somewhere that Quebec is loaning Davie $500 million

That seems like an awful lot; that's about 10 times more than they expected for shipyard modernizations a decade ago for what was a more challenging work package with a lot more concurrent work.

 

[suffolkowner]

That seems like an awful lot; that's about 10 times more than they expected for shipyard modernizations a decade ago for what was a more challenging work package with a lot more concurrent work.

originally I saw it in a tweet but I cant seem to find it now

Quebec shipyard added to federal shipbuilding plan after lobbying, delays

The excitement was palpable on Tuesday as Prime Minister Justin Trudeau formally admitted Quebec-based Chantier Davie into the exclusive club of shipyards eligible for billions of dollars in federal work. The announcement was the result of a decade of intense lobbying by the company and delays...

montreal.ctvnews.ca

"Both Trudeau and Legault, whose province will be contributing $500 million to help Davie expand and upgrade its facilities to build the much-needed icebreaker fleet, also expressed confidence that work on the fleet would begin soon."