• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

Navy_Pete

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
2,569
Points
1,040
Clearly the answer is Nuclear power…
Really more about the short term power demands and things like cooling, not the actual power generation.

The boffins are looking at different options, but really depends on the actual laser power requirements, as well as parallel advances in solid state electronics. Big battery banks are their own risk, and for good reason, some safety issues around them on combatants still need to be figured out.

Power System and Energy Storage Models for Laser
Integration on Naval Platforms

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1014946.pdf
 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
4,698
Points
1,060
Lasers seem to be in the same power band as typical industrial motors - 20 to 300 kW.

The US Army is integrating a 20 kW-class laser weapon system into its new Infantry Squad Vehicle (ISV) to help soldiers down smaller unmanned aerial systems (UASs), according to the director of the service's Rapid Capabilities and Critical Technologies Office Lieutenant General Neil Thurgood.


The Directed Energy Maneuver Short Range Air Defense (DE M-SHORAD) system is a 50-kilowatt laser weapon mounted on a Stryker infantry carrier vehicle. Instead of a Stinger missile, think of a high powered beam of energy directed at a target.


There was exciting news for the US Navy last week as it was announced that Lockheed Martin finally delivered the 60+ kW-class high-energy laser with integrated optical-dazzler and surveillance (HELIOS), the first tactical laser weapon system to be integrated into existing ships. The weapon is also capable of providing directed energy capability to the fleet.


Giant US defense contractor Lockheed Martin says it has delivered a 300 kW electrically driven laser - the most powerful it has ever produced - for weapons demonstration efforts by the US Army.


Harry De Wolfs have four 3600 kW generators. 25% of that power, 1 generator, would power 12 of the highest energy lasers currently available.
 

Good2Golf

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
10,397
Points
1,360
Lasers seem to be in the same power band as typical industrial motors - 20 to 300 kW.













Harry De Wolfs have four 3600 kW generators. 25% of that power, 1 generator, would power 12 of the highest energy lasers currently available.
1664382063022.gif
that would make for some awesome SOVPATs!
 

Navy_Pete

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
2,569
Points
1,040
Harry De Wolfs have four 3600 kW generators. 25% of that power, 1 generator, would power 12 of the highest energy lasers currently available.
It's not the power, it's the instantaneous demand requirement and cycle time, which is why they use batteries/capacitors that need recharged. 30 kW delivered in a fraction of a second is completely different than over a few minutes.

You can have the same amount of energy in a bucket of fuel and some explosives, but they each have different applications. Same idea here.
 

Lumber

Army.ca Veteran
Donor
Reaction score
490
Points
1,060
Also, there's a limited window of utility for lasers. Once countries start making the exterior of their missiles and UAVs out of mirrors, the gig is up!
 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
4,698
Points
1,060
Also, there's a limited window of utility for lasers. Once countries start making the exterior of their missiles and UAVs out of mirrors, the gig is up!

Like these?


 

Underway

Army.ca Veteran
Donor
Reaction score
3,445
Points
1,040
Also, there's a limited window of utility for lasers. Once countries start making the exterior of their missiles and UAVs out of mirrors, the gig is up!
Not just that, ceramic coatings would degrade the heating properties of lasers significantly. Tiles from the space shuttle for would essentially make a target invlunerable to laser damage in that area. Engineering challenges there for sure though. You'd have to keep sensors free from ceramics (which can block EM quite well), and being tough but brittle their material properties are not ideal for aircraft.

It's not the power, it's the instantaneous demand requirement and cycle time, which is why they use batteries/capacitors that need recharged. 30 kW delivered in a fraction of a second is completely different than over a few minutes.

You can have the same amount of energy in a bucket of fuel and some explosives, but they each have different applications. Same idea here.

Completely agree with this. The power draw may be much higher then just a continuous load DG can provide. This is one of the flaws of the railgun system, where you needed to charge capacitors before firing, reducing the continuous firing rate. I wouldn't be surprised in the future if a laser system had its own dedicated DG to keep the load high enough to rapidly charge batteries/capacitors continuously in a combat situation.
 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
4,698
Points
1,060
Another eternal truth.

even the most elegant idea or design is a hypothesis. It remains a hypothesis until reduced to engineering, subjected to rigorous field trials, and vindicated—or not—in the real world. It may suffice once amended to meet the test of reality. Or it may not. Failure is always an option.

 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
4,698
Points
1,060
Suddenly, CSC doesn’t look so expensive, does it?

Still wish we had Danish project managers and bookkeepers.

The Danish answer: their $340 million, 6,600-ton Iver Huitfeldt “Stanflex” frigate.

That’s a lot of ship for the price. But a leading US expert, Bryan Clark, tells us that the Danes may be undercounting their costs by about $50 million, since some of the frigates’ weaponry was recycled from older ships going out of service — an economy made possible by the Danish navy’s Stanflex system of interchangeable equipment modules. That would put the frigate at under $400 million, which is still pretty good compared to LCS or international competitors. The thing is, Clark argued, the costs to the US would be much higher once the design was upgraded to US Navy standards, fitted with US weapons and electronics, and built in less efficient US yards.

 

MTShaw

Full Member
Reaction score
95
Points
430
Still wish we had Danish project managers and bookkeepers.



60 billion for the entire project from 2017 to 2042. The Type 26 was designed as a warship, while the Iver Huitfeld was not. Tons of compartments take alone takes a lot of time and money to build.

I’ve read that also covers the operating costs of the already built CSC ships but I can’t find a reference right now. It’s only 9 o’clock over here.

Also buying sub standard equipment for sailors makes their s jobs harder and probably hurts retention. Cutting corners is how Canada’s defense to gdp is still probably 1.3%.

It also makes it look like bunch of feckless bitches. Hopefully Pierre won’t pull a Harper and a Chretien before him decide that war is over forever and cancel the military.
 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
4,698
Points
1,060
Construction began in September on HMS Venturer, the inaugural vessel for the Royal Navy. The five (Type 31 - Arrowhead 140 - Iver Huitfeldt) ships Britain has ordered will cost £1.25bn, (1.95 BCAD) meaning they cost about a quarter as much as the more sophisticated type 45 Destroyer.

390 MCAD per hull for the Brits





FTSE 250 company Babock will provide Poland with three frigates based on the Royal Navy’s Type 31 design.

Babcock beat a rival bid from Germany's Thyssenkrupp to lead the £1.4bn (2.19 BCAD) contract. The win will come as a relief for Babcock after it lost out on a three-ship contract with Greece to France’s Naval Group.

The ships will be built in Nato member Poland’s shipyards with Babcock’s design and will feature combat equipment from Thales and anti-aircraft firepower from missile maker MBDA, which is part-owned by Britain’s BAE Systems.

730 MCAD per hull for the Poles






A Type 31 or Inspiration-class frigate is a general-purpose, light frigate developed by Team 31, led by Babcock International as a prime contractor. The design of the Type 31 vessel is based on Odense Maritime Technology’s (OMT) Iver Huitfeldt-class hull form, which is currently in service with the Royal Danish Navy.

The Royal Navy is buying five similar Type 31 frigates, but Babcock says the baseline Arrowhead 140 design can be configured to meet a broad range of operational requirements specifically tailored for Indonesian operations.

The $720 million deal is a triumph for Jakarta as it looks to benefit from a transfer of technology, not only to build its own military hardware in the future, but to contribute to the economic benefits of developing the country’s shipbuilding industry.

360 MCAD per hull for the Indonesians

2x Absolon
3x Iver Huitfeldt
5x Type 31 (Brit)
3x Type 31 (Pole)
2x Type 31 (Indonesian)

Global fleet of 15 hulls - complete by 2028?
 

quadrapiper

Sr. Member
Reaction score
119
Points
510
Still wish we had Danish project managers and bookkeepers.



The comment about "less efficient US yards" is a bit surprising.
 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
4,698
Points
1,060
RN sucking up Danish lessons learned on the Type 31. Poles tying into the same fount of knowledge.



Polish set up.

According to the information revealed by the conference attendants, the Miecznik frigates will be 138.7 meters long, 19.7 meters wide, and 5.5 meters deep, with a displacement of about 7000 tonnes. The frigates will be able to operate at sea for 30 days without replenishment. The maximum speed will be 28 knots, and the range at 18 knots will be more than 6,000 nautical miles. The crew of the ships will be about 100-120 people, but the frigates will be able to accommodate up to 160 people.


The frigate’s armament appears to be in line with expectations. 4 quad SSM launchers with RBS-15 mk3/mk4 are mounted at various points on the ship. The Arrowhead140PL is equipped with a 32-cell VLS, and according to a March 4 announcement, MBDA will equip the Sea Ceptor air defence system with CAMM family missiles. Considering that one cell can hold four CAMM missiles, the maximum load of the VLS will be 128 CAMM missiles. The illustration also indicates that the new frigates will be armed with a 76-mm gun and a 35- mm gun. The ship will be capable of carrying and launching MU -90 torpedoes against submarine threats.

There is not much information about the sensor suit, but the image shows that the Miecznik frigate will be equipped with an SM-400 AESA S-band radar supported by an NS -50 rotating radar. The conferees indicate that CAPTAS variable depth sonar and a hull-mounted sonar will be equipped for ASW purposes.


RN set up

General characteristics
NameType 31 frigate
BuildersBabcock International[5]
Operators
  • 23px-Naval_Ensign_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png
    Royal Navy
  • 23px-Flag_of_the_Indonesian_Navy.svg.png
    Indonesian Navy
  • 25px-PL_navy_flag_IIIRP.svg.png
    Polish Navy
Preceded byType 23 frigate
Cost£268 million (2019)[1] per unit (est.)
In service2027[2][3]
Planned
  • 10 (Total)[4]
  • 5 (UK)
  • 2 (Indonesia)
  • 3 (Poland)
Building1
Completed0
TypeGeneral purpose frigate
Displacement5,700 t (5,600 long tons)
Length138.7 m (455 ft 1 in)
Installed power
  • 4 × Rolls Royce/MTU 20V 8000 M71 (8.2 MW) diesel engines[10]
  • 4 × Rolls Royce/MTU 16V 2000 M41B (900 kW) generators
Propulsion
  • CODAD propulsion System
  • MAN Alpha VBS Mk 5 CP propeller
  • 2 Shafts [6]
SpeedIn excess of 28 knots (52 km/h; 32 mph)
Endurance9,000 nmi (17,000 km; 10,000 mi)
Complement80–100 (accommodation for up to 160)
Sensors and
processing systems
  • TACTICOS combat management system
  • Thales NS110 3D radar
  • Raytheon Warship Integrated Navigation and Bridge System
  • Terma Scanter and Raytheon NSX navigation radars
  • 2 Mirador Mk2 EOS
  • Viasat Ultrahigh-frequency satellite communications[7]
  • Sonar 270[8]
Electronic warfare
& decoys
Vigile-D ESM
Armament
Aircraft carried
  • 1 × Wildcat, armed with:
    • 4 × Sea Venom anti ship missiles, or
    • 2 × Sting Ray anti submarine torpedoes, or
    • 20 × Martlet multirole air-surface missiles
    • Mk 11 depth charges
  • or
  • 1 × Merlin, armed with:
Aviation facilitiesHelicopter hangar and flight deck
Notes
  • Mission bay under flight deck for 6 TEUs
  • Three boat bays for RHIBs and USVs/UUV

Danish Huitfeld set up

General characteristics
Class overview
Builders
Operators
23px-Naval_Ensign_of_Denmark.svg.png
Royal Danish Navy[4]
Preceded byNiels Juel-class corvette[3]
SubclassesType 31 frigate
CostUS$325 million per ship[1][2]
Built2008–2011
In commission2012–present
Planned3
Completed3
TypeAir defence frigate
Displacement6,645 t (6,540 long tons) (full load)
Length138.7 m (455 ft 1 in)
Beam19.75 m (64 ft 10 in)
Draft5.3 m (17 ft 5 in)
Propulsion
Speed30 knots (56 km/h; 35 mph)
Range9,000 nmi (17,000 km; 10,000 mi) at 18 knots (33 km/h; 21 mph)[6]
Complement165
Sensors and
processing systems
  • 1 Thales Nederland SMART-L long-range air and surface surveillance radar
  • 1 Thales Nederland APAR air and surface search, tracking and guidance radar (I band)
  • 1 Terma SCANTER 6000 surveillance and helicopter guidance radar
  • Atlas ASO 94 hull mounted sonar
  • 2 Saab CEROS 200 fire control radars
  • ES-3701 Tactical Radar Electronic Support Measures (ESM)
Electronic warfare
& decoys
Armament
Aircraft carried1 × MH-60R
Aviation facilitiesAft helicopter deck and hangar

Danish Absolon set up

General characteristics
Class overview
BuildersOdense Staalskibsværft
OperatorsRoyal Danish Navy
Preceded byFalster class minelayer
CostDKK2.5bn (total),[1] (~US$189m/ship) excluding weapon modules
Built2003–2004
In commission2005–present
Completed2
Active2
TypeFrigates (formerly support ships)
Displacement
  • 4,500 tonnes light,[1]
  • 6,600 tonnes full load[1]
Length137 m (449 ft 6 in)[1]
Beam19.5 m (64 ft 0 in)[1]
Draft6.3 m (20 ft 8 in)[1]
Propulsion
  • 2 × MTU 8000 M70 diesel engines
  • Two shafts
  • 22,300 bhp (16.6 MW)[1]
Speed24 knots (44 km/h)[1]
Range9,000 nmi (17,000 km) at 15 kn (28 km/h)[1]
Boats & landing
craft carried
2 × RHIBs, 2 × SB90E LCP
Complement100, plus aircrew and transients (accommodation for up to 300 in total)
Sensors and
processing systems
  • Thales SMART-S Mk2 3D volume search radar
  • Terma Scanter 6002 surface search radar
  • Atlas ASO 94 sonar
  • 3 × Saab CEROS 200 fire control radars
  • ES-3701 Tactical Radar Electronic Support Measures (ESM)
Electronic warfare
& decoys
  • 4 × 12-barrelled Terma DL-12T 130 mm decoy launchers
  • 2 × 6-barrelled Terma DL-6T 130 mm decoy launchers
Armament
Aircraft carried2 × EH-101 helicopters[1] or 2 MH-60R helicopters
Aviation facilitiesAft helicopter deck and hangars
 
Top