Need for a new Army dress uniform (Split from: Return To Old Army Officer Rank Insignia)

[SeanNewman]

Can you provide a regimental document that states it was ever officially called "Para" Company?

How about the Pro Patria itself?  Regimental enough?

http://www.theroyalcanadianregiment.ca/rcr_publications/propatria2004/1rcr_pp2004.htm

"On 27 January Cpl Jamie Murphy was killed and three soldiers of Para Company were wounded when a suicide bomber attacked their patrol..."

 

[Michael OLeary]

Actually no, the unit articles in Pro Patria are written by the units, and do not dictate regimental custom in themselves.  The entire issue came about because the unit was using the "Para" naming without formal regimental approval, to the point of loosing the context of the Regiment's tradition for naming (i.e., lettering) companies.

The place it should appear to have regimental backing is in Regimental Standing orders.  The unit had an opportunity to seek approval for it, but never chose to use it.  The Annexes to Chapter 2 of Regimental Standing Orders are supposed to be prepared by the battalions.  Each annex is structured to present the individual unit's organization, symbols and any unique customs or traditions.

I can attest that at least the last three Regimental Adjutants have repeatedly asked the Battalions to update these Annexes for regimental approval and republication.  This annex is one opportunity where a CO and RSM could present their annex to the Regimental Executive Committee and could have requested Senate approval for an unofficial naming of "Para" to be recognized for the company so tasked (since there was no guarantee it would always be Mike Coy).  Unfortunately, that was never done, and attempts at common usage were mistakenly presumed to be a quasi-official change in naming - which the Regiment corrected.  (Seeking recognition through an RSO amendment may not have worked, at least the first time, but it would have put it on the table.)

 

[SeanNewman]

Mr O'Leary,

I appreciate the official nature of your reply, but in a way the staff-iness (tm) of it demonstrates just how far removed the answer is from the ground truth of what a soldier thinks or cares about.

Perhaps the Regimental Adjts and higher care about annexes of Regimental Standing Orders, but I don't think a 19-year-old Pte leaves work and loses a lot of sleep over what the Regimental Executive Committee or Senate talks about at meetings.

They heard their Section Commanders calling it Para Coy, their Pl Comds calling it Para Coy, their OC calling himself the OC of Para Coy, their MWO calling himself the CSM of Para Coy, and the CO and RSM referring to them as Para Coy on weekly battalion parades.  In fact, the "official" crest at the door of company lines was even the Pegasus and Bellerophon logo painted on the wall above the words "Para Company".

Not claiming to know what was inside the heads of all soldiers, I'll go out on a limb and say that to a Pte, whatever their Sgt and CSM said they belonged to was all the "truth" they needed.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Then it was up to their immediate chain of command to do the "staffy" crap to make their "truth" a reality - so you choose who in your mind failed them.

The "official nature" of my reply was to give you the reality-based background on how that could have been achieved.  But if you prefer the colloquial view, by all means stick to that.

 

[Privateer]

Would the desire for a true dress uniform (short of scarlets) be accomplished by permitting the Regular Force army to wear patrols, as the Militia does?

 

[McG]

Would the desire for a true dress uniform (short of scarlets) be accomplished by permitting the Regular Force army to wear patrols, as the some Militia regiments does?

Fixed your question.  To answer with more questions: what is the historical significance of patrol uniforms to the regiments that wear them, and does the whole (or even majority) of the Army share that linkage?

 

[vonGarvin]

Hey, I've got an idea:
How about we figure out how to fight wars and train people to fight wars instead of wondering which buttons or bows to wear?
EDIT TO CLARIFY:

I'm all about heritage and tradition, but not so much that I wish to remain embedded in the past.  As someone once said of The Royal Canadian Regiment, it is much like a tree, some branches are cut off, others grafted on, but in the end, it keeps on growing.  Or words to that effect.

 

[McG]

Whatever we do, let's not dress ourselves (as some other nation may have) like a city police force ...

 

[SeanNewman]

Hey, I've got an idea:  How about we figure out how to fight wars and train people to fight wars...

Slow down there, Mr Cumber-bun-on-his-mess-kit.

 

[vonGarvin]

Slow down there, Mr Cumber-bun-on-his-mess-kit.

:rofl:
Good point.  In fact, you help my point.  I paid for my mess kit, not the crown.  So, there's the difference.  If we're worried about how Her Majesty is going to dress up Her Canadian Armed Forces, then we've jumped the shark.

 

[SeanNewman]

...I paid for my mess kit, not the crown...

Obviously we still have rules to follow in the manner we wear it though.

If there were no control over mess kit people would have everything from foreign badges to their Grade 8 2nd-place in the Discus ribbon.

I would certainly have my rank made out of gold rhinestones if given the chance.

 

[dapaterson]

Obviously we still have rules to follow in the manner we wear it though.

If there were no control over mess kit people would have everything from foreign badges to their Grade 8 2nd-place in the Discus ribbon.

I would certainly have my rank made out of gold rhinestones with the executive curl if given the chance.

Fixed that one for you.

 

[SeanNewman]

Fixed that one for you.

Never!  Curls are for those who wear fa....fabulously white uniforms.

 

[Old Naval Guard]

Hi How about this Since the Army is considering returning to a Pips and Crowns for 2nd LT to Lt Col ie its Tradition's, why not restore Khaki uniforms  in a CF Cut. Also bring back the Summer Tan DEU The Navy uniform reflects the history of the Navy.The Air Force DEU reflects the history of the Airforce  Its about time the army has something that reflects its traditions and heritage. I would hate to be a solider in those winter weight CF on a hot summer day. Tan is a colour of uniform that Canada Soldiers have worn in one form  or another since the Boer War. Canadian Khaki is of a greener shade than British Khaki which is Browner. It recalls Vi my ridge, Passen dale, Dieppe and Normandy as well as Korea.  Its up to the Army what it wants to do. My two  :2c:

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Its about time the army has something that reflects its traditions and heritage.

We have that.  Its called eight years of close combat with a determined foe.

 

[dangerboy]

I think it has been said on more than one thread, the average soldier does not really care to much about their CF uniform.  They care more about the combat uniform and would rather see that changed to incorporate features such as pockets on the sleeves, more modern design of the collar.  The CF uniform is not worn very often Nov 11th, men's Christmas diner and maybe once or twice more a year (unless you are doing troopings or change of command parades).

 

[dimsum]

(slight thread derail) 

Just interested to know what the "modern design on the collar" would be?

Now back to your original programming...

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I would hate to be a solider in those winter weight CF on a hot summer day.

You mean like a sailor today wearing his/her full riggers in the hot summer sun. Don't fix it because it ain't broken.

 

[john. M]

I like the combats just the way it is no changes, but instead of the lime green shirt i rather wear a tan shirt.
like this guy here

 

[Neill McKay]

You mean like a sailor today wearing his/her full riggers in the hot summer sun. Don't fix it because it ain't broken.

I'd describe five pounds of black poly/wool in July as broken!  The navy, at least, has an optional summer rig as well.  (The optional nature of it, of course, limits its use by those who own it.)

I wasn't in when the army got rid of its summer tans, but I've always been curious as to why they did it.  It was a while before they cut back on wearing DEUs and stared wearing combats as often as they do now.