• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

NDP National Leadership

Status
Not open for further replies.

Edward Campbell

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Mentor
Reaction score
4,312
Points
1,160
E.R. Campbell said:
At the end of the 1st ballot the results in the NDP leadership race are:

Mulcair:  30.4%
Topp:      21.4%
Cullen:    16.4%
Nash:      12.9%
Dewar:    )
Singh:    }  Not on the 2nd ballot
Ashton:  )

This is actually an important election. If Mulcair wins he will be tough on the Conservatives but he will be harder on the Liberals. He's a good, vigorous parliamentarian and he does well on TV. He will, I suspect drag the party towards the centre which is bad for the Liberals but good for the country because IF he ever does become prime minister a Mulcair government will do less damage than, say, a Topp led administration would. If Topp wins he will be easy for the Conservative and the Liberals to attack and he will find it hard to fight back. He will also keep the party in the left of the spectrum which means that Canadians will not elect them to govern. But he will also foil Stephen Harper's goal of destroying the Liberals because the left of centre vote will, once again, be divided.

So: Mulcair is better for the country and better for Harper's "annihilate the Liberals" project, but Mulcair might actually win an election in 2019 or later. Topp is doomed to take the NDP back to third party status - maybe even fourth, thus he presents no threat to Canada.

But, as Election 2015 goes into the last 10 days we are asking this question:

Altair said:
Same goes for the NDP.

It's looking more and more like the NDP are going to get smacked hard on election day. I wonder who is best positioned to take a run at the ndp leadership after this. Because if Mulcair doesn't setup down on the night of October 19th or morning of Oct 20th the knives will be sharpened by the 21st.


My bet is on Brian Topp, again ...

   
Brian-Topp-Photo.jpg


He is, currently, chief of staff to Alberta Premier Rachel Notley, but I'm sure he's testing the waters of the NDP's leadership pool with a view to taking it back to the real left.
 
I hope Dewar has been working on his french.

He would be a respectable leader.
 
Altair said:
I hope Dewar has been working on his french.

He would be a respectable leader.


I agree. I know him, slightly (we've attended a couple of seminars together, etc) and I like him. He's a good constituency MP and, I think, an effective critic of an important portfolio.
 
interesting that factions in the party went out of their way to skewer the Muclair bus with the manifesto thing. Better to live nobly in poverty than rich in sin I suspect is their argument.
 
This is the scenario I currently see playing out. Minority situation, Libs and PCs have roughly (+/- 5 seats) the same number of seats. NDP gets smacked hard. Mulcair has to move out of Stornaway, submits his resignation when he gets his Brookfield package for the move. Temporary leader of the NDP is appointed (an elder statesman type, maybe Jack Harris or Wayne Marston, somebody who's been around for a while but isn't going to run for the actual leadership). Temporary leader agrees to support a Conservative budget and government only until the NDP can have their convention, and the NDP will then lose confidence in the government.

PM Harper carries on, a new NDP leader is appointed, and then depending on how Harper sees the situation he has three choices -- run against the new NDP leader, resign and let another Conservative leader run against the new NDP leader, or approach the Libs and say either back me or we have another election, and isn't the Liberal party broke? Options are good things to have, and this scenario seems to favour the Conservatives.

Thoughts?
 
Ostrozac said:
This is the scenario I currently see playing out. Minority situation, Libs and PCs have roughly (+/- 5 seats) the same number of seats. NDP gets smacked hard. Mulcair has to move out of Stornaway, submits his resignation when he gets his Brookfield package for the move. Temporary leader of the NDP is appointed (an elder statesman type, maybe Jack Harris or Wayne Marston, somebody who's been around for a while but isn't going to run for the actual leadership). Temporary leader agrees to support a Conservative budget and government only until the NDP can have their convention, and the NDP will then lose confidence in the government.

PM Harper carries on, a new NDP leader is appointed, and then depending on how Harper sees the situation he has three choices -- run against the new NDP leader, resign and let another Conservative leader run against the new NDP leader, or approach the Libs and say either back me or we have another election, and isn't the Liberal party broke? Options are good things to have, and this scenario seems to favour the Conservatives.

Thoughts?
http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/co...tals-1.3057522

As of this may, party fundraising for Q1

CPC 6.3 million

LPC 3.8 million

NDP 2.3 million.

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blo...ndraising-race

Q2 results

CPC 7.4 million

NDP 4.5 million

LPC 4 million

Don't know if anyone knows the third quarter numbers, but as of the second quarter numbers, the NDP is just as broke as the liberals.

Advantage liberals thanks to them being the official opposition in your scenario.
 
Altair said:
I hope Dewar has been working on his french.

He would be a respectable leader.


Paul Dewar lost his seat ... the NDP, like the CPC, has some time (thanks to a Liberal majority) to consider its options and its positions for the future.
 
I think Mr Muclair has something of an uphill battle brewing. He was seen to campaign to the right of the Liberals, a position his "loony left" faction won't soon forgive. Will there be calls within the party for a leadership review? Perhaps. The NDP was on the cusp of victory. Some might feel a change is in order.
 
Meh, the natural order of things have been rebalanced, circle of life and all that.  The Dippers are back to third party status where they belong.  Upstarts...  And seeing as it's the 21st of October 2015, we're Back to the Future with a Trudeau as PM.  ;)
 
Muclair I suspect is toast, he was stabbed in the back by the party faithful and will likely leave in disgust I suspect he did far better with what he had then anyone expected (self included). I anticipate Nathan Cullen as a potential leadership candidate.
 
The NDP has a couple of problems.

Firstly, I hypothesize that the left needs and favours charismatic leaders more than the right.  Crudely, progressive politics is the politics of style; conservative politics is the politics of substance.  Hence the success of a Pierre, a Jack!, or a Justin; and the failure of an earnest but dull Broadbent or Dion.  Only in conservative politics can a Clark or a Harper have a shot at leadership and government.

Secondly, the NDP can't mute the extremist sub-factions the same way the CPC can.  I think this is beyond the capability of the NDP to address, because I think it is deeply influenced by their ideology.  It is in the nature of progressives to be activists, nearly incapable of not speaking their mind, because ultimately their purposes drive them to seek to involve themselves in the lives of others.  Conservatives can also be activists, but most are content to mind their own business.
 
I am curious as to who, exactly the NDP faithful see as their leader. While I might not like what Mr Mulcair stands for, I do respect his performance as opposition leader and even on the campaign trail; he certainly seemed to be a man of far more substance than even Jack Layton, and I suspect would have made a reasonable Prime Minister (so long as he was able to keep the loony left in check, although as Brad points out, this is seemingly encoded in Progressive DNA).

My limited knowledge of the current personalities in the NDP universe makes it difficult to see many potential effective replacements for Mr Mulcair.
 
Would have said paul Dewar,  he was a respectable MP and great to have on Power and politics and power play.

 
In this column, which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, a sympathetic Jeffrey Simpson gets at two problems (my emphasis added) which the NDP leader, M Mulcair or another, must address:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/globe-politics-insider/jeffrey-simpson-getting-to-the-core-of-ndp-disappointment/article26943330/
gam-masthead.png

Getting to the core of NDP disappointment

SUBSCRIBERS ONLY

Jeffrey Simpson
The Globe and Mail

Published Friday, Oct. 23, 2015

New Democrats, take a deep breath. Yes, the election results came in way below expectations. Very fine MPs were defeated. The dream of government died. Party members feel sore, even shell-shocked.

Step back. The NDP won 44 seats Monday, the largest in its history, except for 2011. It took more than 19 per cent of the popular vote, bettered only by its 31 per cent in 2011 and 20.3 per cent in the 1988 election.

Monday’s election produced a bit of the same morning sickness that arrived in 1988. The party had been scoring well in the polls throughout 1988. Ed Broadbent seemed a popular leader. The Liberals under John Turner were struggling. Becoming the official opposition seemed possible. Instead, the Liberals galvanized an anti-free-trade vote and the NDP sank. The Liberals became the official opposition with about twice as many seats as the NDP.

Compared with the 2011 election, the 2015 NDP results were poor. The party wound up way down in the popular vote and number of seats. Its Quebec bastion disintegrated. Third-party status now beckons. Some excellent MPs lost who deserved a better fate.

What were the 2011 results all about that propelled the NDP into official opposition status for the first time? The start of a bigger and better future for the NDP eventually leading to power or a fluke?

We know that the wisdom of hindsight is hard to beat. In retrospect, the NDP got ahead of itself. The party saw itself first or second in the polls for many months before the election. It rejoiced in the party’s win in the Alberta provincial election. It believed the Liberals were struggling and the Conservatives were stuck. Winning the largest number of seats and forming a minority government seemed possible.

A campaign strategy was framed to help the party, and Leader Tom Mulcair, look like a responsible alternative. The NDP would be socially progressive (child care, affordable housing, more money for health care) but fiscally responsible with balanced budgets. It seemed the proper trade-off. And then, the strategy collapsed. Was it really the strategy that collapsed, or were New Democrats kidding themselves, as they had before?

The 2011 election was a one-off triumph, built on the so-called Orange Wave in Quebec. Outside Quebec, however, the party did not do much better than before. New Democrats were running across Canada against a Liberal Party in the doldrums led by Michael Ignatieff. That they couldn’t do appreciably better outside Quebec ought to have been a cause for concern.

In the period between 2011 and 2015, the NDP blew a provincial election in British Columbia, lost power in Nova Scotia, failed to advance in the Ontario provincial election and saw an NDP government in Manitoba plunge in popularity. Nothing provincially suggested the party was on the rise – an ominous state of affairs for a party whose federal and provincial wings work closely together.

Something more fundamental was at work. The number of Canadians who call themselves New Democrats wasn’t budging even though the number who said they might consider the NDP was rising. The NDP core remained much smaller than the Conservative core and the Liberal one.

More ominously still, the Liberals were regrouping, feeling better about their party, contributing money, attending nomination meetings. A very strong team of Liberal candidates was being built. That old Liberal brand, easy for some to believe was past its due date, was coming back into favour, slowly at first, rapidly toward the end.

The Conservatives invented the slogan about Justin Trudeau that “he’s just not ready.” Despite all the NDP’s efforts, too many voters felt that its federal party was “just not ready” to govern. Maybe this was, and is, unfair. New Democrats would say so, but they aren’t numerous enough to decide.

And then there was the fierce, widespread anti-Harper sentiment that fired so many voters, more than two-thirds of whom said they wanted “change.” The Liberals’ platform was successfully sold as representing more change than that of the NDP. But a deeper factor was at work. Voters had seen the Liberals in office before. Once those who wanted change became somewhat reassured in the competence of Mr. Trudeau, more of them preferred the party that had exercised power before to the one that had not.


There it is: the NDP must grow its base. It cannot depend on having "le bon Jack" every time. And, in my opinion, the NDP has to have better provincial examples than Tommy Douglas in the 1960s and a better, more professional platform, to demonstrate that it can govern well.
 
I doubt the NDP can grow its base above 20%, just as I doubt the CPC can grow its base above 30% or the LPC grow theirs above 20% (where it was for the 2011 election; I don't think the LPC base is 30%).  That would mean about 70% of voters are spoken for.

I think Layton could have beat Trudeau, but only to achieve a minority.  It would have been Style vs Style.  This is the age of Daily Show politics - the politics of snark and LCF are what the under-40 crowd in particular favour.
 
Brad Sallows said:
I doubt the NDP can grow its base above 20%, just as I doubt the CPC can grow its base above 30% or the LPC grow theirs above 20% (where it was for the 2011 election; I don't think the LPC base is 30%).  That would mean about 70% of voters are spoken for.

I think Layton could have beat Trudeau, but only to achieve a minority.  It would have been Style vs Style.  This is the age of Daily Show politics - the politics of snark and LCF are what the under-40 crowd in particular favour.
which is why this electoral reform is going to be huge.

I doubt trudeau goes for PR, he knows he will never be able to get another majority.

I do think he goes for ranked ballots, which may cripple the CPC. The entire CPC machine is about optimizing the 40 percent of voters they can potentially get.

I wonder how many outside of the 40 percent they target will have Tories as their second choice.
 
He may not get another majority but the people behind him who pull the strings will not allow him to mess with a good thing.  Majority wins guarantees a liberal majority or liberal dominated minority at least 50% of the time.  No other system can guarantee those kinds of results.  And for the liberals, it is all about winning. In fairness, the same applies to the conservatives and they are not about to relinquish control to either the NDP or the greens by going for proportional representation.
 
YZT580 said:
He may not get another majority but the people behind him who pull the strings will not allow him to mess with a good thing.  Majority wins guarantees a liberal majority or liberal dominated minority at least 50% of the time.  No other system can guarantee those kinds of results.  And for the liberals, it is all about winning. In fairness, the same applies to the conservatives and they are not about to relinquish control to either the NDP or the greens by going for proportional representation.
Ranked ballots wouldn't rock the boat too much.
 
>I wonder how many outside of the 40 percent they target will have Tories as their second choice.

Concern-troll all you want.  This election proves the Conservative base is about 30+% and the NDP base is 20%-.  Based on election results and polls over the past decade, the Liberal base is somewhere around 20%.
 
Brad Sallows said:
>I wonder how many outside of the 40 percent they target will have Tories as their second choice.

Concern-troll all you want.  This election proves the Conservative base is about 30+% and the NDP base is 20%-.  Based on election results and polls over the past decade, the Liberal base is somewhere around 20%.
I'm a strategist. While I back one side, I can look objectively at the strategies implemented by all sides.

I would have LPC support a tad higher than ndp support, around 25, based on brand loyalty, CPC a tad higher at 32, but other than that I agree with your numbers.

Looking forward, if the LPC switches to ranked ballots like I think they will, I believe that would change the way the conservatives operate moving forward, maybe even who is leader.

Under first past the post, a bounce back isn't too hard. If it goes to ranked ballots or god forbid PR, things get really interesting from the CPC point of view.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top