Liberals want Handgun Ban

[Fry]

A 338 is quite powerful, but I agree, I wouldn't exactly hunt elephants with it. I'd opt for a larger calibre for sure.


And well, if firearms were banned, and infact none existed in Canada... and this individual wanted to kill this officer, he'd be trained in some other form of killing, knives, self defense, using a car , etc.

Just because handguns, or non-restricted firearms get banned, does Martin think all of those people with murderous intent will simply gather around and sing campfire songs? I think not.

My point, if someone really wants to murder, they will, whether it's with a gun or a car.

 

[Old Ranger]

My point, if someone really wants to murder, they will, whether it's with a gun or a car.

Or a Seal Club...

 

[Infanteer]

<sigh> - you know this is going to give impetus to this inane political move by the Liberals.  Meanwhile, this, which happened on the same day, will be ignored.

 

[48Highlander]

Some witnesses said she had been standing outside a Foot Locker store when she was shot in the head.

One man was working at the store's cash register when people began rushing in to safety.

"I just came out and I saw a girl lying, she was bloody on the ground, she was still shaking, I don't think she was quite dead yet."

Heh, a few years ago I was working at that store as a security guard.  That area is so bad that in a 50 meter radius 4 out of 5 stores all had security.  Sam the Record Man is just across the street and they had both uniformed and undercover.

Instead of banning guns, how many of these victims could have been saved if the guards were properly trained and armed?

 

[Kal]

Instead of banning guns, how many of these victims could have been saved if the guards were properly trained and armed?

    That's expensive though, dude.  :  Seriously though, those types of guards are obviously going to command a higher price than non-armed, poorly trained guards, and I'm not sure if many stores would be willing to pay the extra cost.  Mabe after a shooting, but it's too late then, right?  Then again, better late than never right?  Anyways back to what I was saying.  I'm not sure how well the public image would go over if suddenly armed guards were to patrol and while I don't care about that so much, I'm sure the companies would if it relates to negative images and lower profits. 

I would image that it would be a bit of a headache for the security agency getting guards trained PROPERLY and to keep up their training and certification on an on-going basis and for some agencies it may not be worth that headache. 

 

[Old Ranger]

I've seen Armed guards in US malls.  Only a few walking around a huge mall makes a big difference.

Or do Police Deparments put satalite stations in malls?  They have one at the Cookstown Outlet mall (400 & 89) and it has worked pretty well there.

 

[Blackhorse7]

One of those wounded was an off duty Police Officer.  Why in Canada are off duty Police Officers not allowed to carry a firearm off duty?  That may have at least stopped this poor girl from being killed.

 

[Infanteer]

One of those wounded was an off duty Police Officer.  Why in Canada are off duty Police Officers not allowed to carry a firearm off duty?  That may have at least stopped this poor girl from being killed.

...because Canada doesn't want any trained citizens carrying guns around - it is an anathema of the nanny state.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Just in:

NEWS RELEASE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For Immediate Release
December 29, 2005

AN OPEN LETTER FROM PREMIER MCGUINTY TO FEDERAL LEADERS ON GUN CRIMES

Dear Prime Minister Martin, Mr. Harper, Mr. Layton and Mr. Duceppe:

Earlier this week, in the middle of a holiday season that should be filled with family, friends and happiness, the life of one young woman was taken and six others were injured in a downtown Toronto shooting spree. As you are very much aware, this is only the latest in a series of shootings that continue to kill and injure.

I know you share my deep concern and determination to do all we can to make our streets safer.

Effectively addressing guns and gangs will require a renewed and sustained effort on the part of all levels of government working together with our police. Among other things, we need to address the inadequacy of Canada's criminal penalties for gun-related crimes. It is in this vein that I am writing to you.

While any effective plan to address gun crimes must be comprehensive in nature and address both the causes of crime as well as the crime itself, part of any such plan must include severe penalties.

Only severe penalties can clearly convey the gravity of gun-related crimes and our society's intolerance for them.

On behalf of Ontarians, I am asking for your commitment to move as quickly as possible under the new Parliament to amend the Criminal Code in order to:

Impose a ban on handguns
Impose a mandatory minimum sentence of four years for illegal possession of a handgun
Impose increased mandatory minimum sentences for all gun crimes
Create two new Criminal Code offences with mandatory minimum sentences for robbery with the intent to steal a gun and for breaking and entering with the intent to steal a gun
Impose a reverse onus on bail for all gun crimes, and
Set more severe penalties for any breach of bail conditions.

We must -- and will -- continue to work together on behalf of all Ontarians to ensure our communities are safe. This work can only succeed if we build on a criminal justice system that treats gun crimes with the severity they deserve.

Yours truly,

Dalton McGuinty

Premier

c: His Worship David Miller, Mayor, City of Toronto

Chief William Blair, Toronto Police Service

Chief Armand La Barge, President, Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police

Mr. John Tory, Leader, Ontario PC Party

Mr. Howard Hampton, Leader, Ontario NDP Party

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Yesterday on Fox News' "Your World", Fox's Stewart Varney, who is apparently
a naturalized conservative American ( and a VERY devoted and loyal one from
the sounds of him - originally from Unfree Kingdom ), had it out with a
Canadian named Patrice Brunet ( attorney - The Quebec Law Network ), about
gun control.

Varney REALLY got pissed at this little SOB, who kept claiming that
therecent shootings in Canada were the fault of the U.S., because "we don't
have any gun control laws", and of course Canada does because they're all
civilized etc.

He said that if cars had existed 200 years ago, they might have been
considered a right like keeping and bearing arms are, and it might be
illegal to license them here now too. As a libertarian, I actually often
wonder why we have to get government permission to move about freely on the
roads. Restrictions on our right to travel using modern means,  seems as
socialist as gun control laws.

I wish Varney had been better briefed before the interview, then he could
have pointed out to slick, that the U.S. already has 21,000 some gun control
laws and THEY DON'T WORK because attempts at prior restraint only infringe
the rights of good people, they don't stop criminals, because CRIMINALS
DON'T OBEY LAWS. Duh!

Which is WHY criminals are ILLEGALLY smuggling banned guns into Canada and
committing crimes with them. Duh!

I wish Stewart Varney would at least follow up with this information and am
sending Fox News a copy of this email from my groups.

But kudos to Stewart for being such a loyal and devoted liberty-loving
American.

Yours In Liberty,  Melissa  - Colorado, U.S.A.

 

[Infanteer]

Let Ontario ban handguns; I will only laugh harder when more guys in Toronto bust caps into each other in the future as politicians are patting their backs for being self-serving statists.  Handguns are only good at close range anyways; I don't need them for when they come with the fetters....

 

[UberCree]

I detect there is some kind of twisted illogical paternalistic (racist) undertones amongst those that proclaim to want to ban guns.  I notice that the talk of these crimes being the product of 'marginalization' as Paul Martin says, is increasing.  No one amongst the anti-handgun lobby is suggesting that we crack down hard on these criminals, because by golly they are poor, helpless minority folk that are acting out of desperation.  As if minorities are incapable of reasonable thought and forced to act on instinct.  The fact that the talk of banning handguns pisses off army types (like us) probably pleases them beyond belief.  I imagine that they dislike us more than they dislike the inner city gangbangers.  They invision hangun owners to be the 'good ol boys' ... 'the man'... that should suffer and lose some of our power.   

Thoughts of an angy Cree man.

 

[Blue Max]

If Ontario wants to have some chance of solving their gang-banging troubles, then they had better hope that the Liberals are not voted in again.

It is not to say that the other parties have a sure fire solution to this troubling gang problem, but the Liberals are only about what looks good and feels good in the short term (ban all Hand Guns) without any clear thought to wether this will have any real affect upon the problem.

Vote CPC.

 

[3rd Herd]

Last night in Vancouver (Surrey) there were three hand gun shootings, it is almost a everyday occurrence. What really gets me is almost all of them are "new" comers to Canada. For get the high fa luting gun laws and who about enforcing some on the book immigration laws. It was nice to see the Indian army waitting for a Vancouver street racer who killed a lady on his return to his mother country. Happens once in a blue moon. So those of you back east quit whining, night clubbing in Van, flack jackets are the wear.

 

[Blackhorse7]

3rd Herd... poor attitude. 

There have been 57 gun related deaths in Toronto this year.  One of them was a guy killed at a FUNERAL of another young lad killed by gunfire.  Lets not turn this into an east/west, who has the bigger problem thing.  Gun violence is a problem everywhere.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

  Gun violence is a problem everywhere.

Guns are as inanimate as fenceposts. GANG violence is a problem everywhere. There lies the problem. Solve that, and you'll solve a large part of what ails us.

 

[3rd Herd]

Blackhorse
not trying to turn this into an east/west battle but I grew up in the area of T.O. where allot of the shooting now occur. Mostly I blame the media, more coverage back east. I think the above post by Reeceguy re: Gangs is accurate, solve the gang problem and you will solve allot of the gun problems. And yes there has been out here some recent successes in the "gang arena". As for the flack jacket comment you would be surprised at the number of weapons I have confiscated/had the RCMP confiscate and then charge student/parenet going down to the primary school level.

 

[Blackhorse7]

3rd Herd

Recceguy is right.  I'm just pointing out that we have problems everywhere, not just in the LMD.  And I wouldn't be surprised at the amount of guns you have come across.  I come across them pretty regularly myself.

 

[Infanteer]

Are we really going to eliminate these things?  As far as I understand it, guns are a cultural thing - Japanese people don't buy guns because they've never done so.  As far as I see it Canada will never get away from firearms - our proximity to the United States (founded upon the notion of the armed citizen) and our own "frontier" culture, replete with hunting and shooting, ensures this.

The best solution to me appears not to try and hide and eliminate things that will not go away (War on Drugs anyone?), but to educate citizens and deal severely with those who continue to threaten the rest of society.   If somebody goes off the deep-end or wants to shoot a rival gang-member, they WILL find a gun to do it with no matter how many yellow ribbons we hand out for December 6.  This seems to be a two-fold strategy:

1)  Arm citizens - give those who wish the appropriate level of training in use of force, shooting, proper carriage and handling, threat identification, etc, etc the right to carry.  Ensure that citizens who wish to do this are vetted and regularly updated.  This is the citizen's insurance policy - LEO's will not always be around and there is nothing that should say they need a monopoly on use of firearms for self defence.  What if situations like Lupine or the Toronto shooting could have been avoided if the average citizen was more vigilant and prepared to defuse a situation with force?

2)  Slam the book, big time.  Gangs, petty crime, and youth violence will never go away - it is hardwired into man's competitive biology.  However, using a firearm in the commission of a crime should demand a big automatic sentence.  We'll see how tough gang-members in Toronto are when, upon being arrested, they are sent to a penal colony for 5 years for illegally possessing a firearm.

I repeat - if somebody wants to go out and shoot somebody, they WILL find away to do so - no amount of wishing or political rhetoric will change this fact.  The only thing that will protect us is if society is prepared to meet the threat head on....

 

[The_Falcon]

2)  Slam the book, big time.  Gangs, petty crime, and youth violence will never go away - it is hardwired into man's competitive biology.  However, using a firearm in the commission of a crime should demand a big automatic sentence.  We'll see how tough gang-members in Toronto are when, upon being arrested, they are sent to a penal colony for 5 years for illegally possessing a firearm.

These penal colonies would of course by located in the far north, right?