Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF

[Lumber]

I'm surprised that this isn't a more active threat...

The issue with even recreational use in the CAF, IMO, is this:

Alcohol and Cannabis have a peculiar inverse correlation with respect to dosage and lethality, and dosage and inebriation.

A large amount of alcohol will kill you, even in one sitting; a large amount of cannabis, even in one sitting, will not.

However:

A small amount of alcohol (i.e. a beer) will have zero (or very little) noticeable psychological affect on those consuming it (obviously, that's not always the case, some people do get inebriated after one drink); a small amount of cannabis, on the other hand, will have an immediate inebriating affect. Sure, this might not be true of someone who has developed a tolerance, but we're talking about CAF members here. I'd hope that even if it was made permissible recreationally, that they wouldn't all start lighting up on a daily basis.

So, I can have one beer and go back to work and feel fine, but I imagine that if I smoked a joint at lunch I think that I'd be noticeably inebriated for the rest of the afternoon.

If we allow occasional (i.e. outside of work) recreational use of cannabis in the FORCES, I think you're going to see a measurable increase in unauthorized use of cannabis both before or during work (i.e. lunch). Since even a small amount can have a significant inebriating affect, I think this is dangerous.

Once cannabis becomes legal at large, I think you will be hard pressed to successfully convict members of the CAF for using it recreationally on weekends/after hours (just my opinion, I have no legal trg to confirm this).  So, my recommendation would be to leave it as is; illegal in the CAF. Once legal in Canada, use will go up, charges and convictions in the military will go down, but we'll still have the tools we need to deal with those who abuse.

Thoughts?

 

[Remius]

I honestly think that it will take time for the CAF to catch up to whatever legislation is put in place.  So while it might be legalised in Canada, it might still be a service offence.  Now whether it gets enforced is another matter.

 

[RocketRichard]

It makes sense that if you're impaired you can not be on duty. Hence, smoking  marijuana at lunch and/or before duty would most likely make you unfit for duty. Ingesting marijuana on the weekend should be good to go as members can also become very impaired using and abusing alcohol. We serve the nation and marihuana is to be legalized. Could be problematic for the CAF to state members can not use marijuana in their off time. It will be very interesting going forward to see how the military, Emergency Services, civil servants handle this for employees.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You be able to smoke it outside of the barracks in Shilo, in -30, that should encourage use  [

Seriously though I would not want to smell it if living in the barracks, let them eat it inside or smoke it outside.


Keep in mind also for future users that insurance agencies will consider you a "smoker" if you use pot and will adjust your premiums accordingly. Not telling them you smoke could invalidate your future claims.

 

[George Wallace]

A large amount of alcohol will kill you, even in one sitting; a large amount of cannabis, even in one sitting, will not.

A large amount of anything could be fatal.  I know of a case from my youth, of two young guys sitting on a step of their residence drinking large quantities of water becoming 'intoxicated', and one of them having a fatal overdose.  (Not being a medical expert, I can not remember the name of this condition on the body's blood. -- It was discussed in another thread.) 

A small amount of alcohol (i.e. a beer) will have zero (or very little) noticeable psychological affect on those consuming it (obviously, that's not always the case, some people do get inebriated after one drink); a small amount of cannabis, on the other hand, will have an immediate inebriating affect. Sure, this might not be true of someone who has developed a tolerance, but we're talking about CAF members here. I'd hope that even if it was made permissible recreationally, that they wouldn't all start lighting up on a daily basis.

Then we apply similar rules as already exist in reference to alcohol and "no consumption X hours prior to driving a military vehicle".

 

[George Wallace]

Keep in mind also for future users that insurance agencies will consider you a "smoker" if you use pot and will adjust your premiums accordingly. Not telling them you smoke could invalidate your future claims.

Now there is an new twist.  Insurance companies and their policies.  Their fine print and changing criteria could have serious ramifications on Insurance Claims.  They are not very good at "grandfathering" things.  (I remember them changing the requirements for wood stoves and changes to the Building Codes with a threat to void my Policy unless I made changes to my home to make my wood stove meet NEW Building Code regulations.)  Nothing like paying mega bucks for insurance, only to find that they will not cover you due to you invalidating one of the articles in your Policy's fine print.

 

[Stoker]

Interestingly enough at work my PA says that what he is hearing out of health services that it will remain illegal for forces members to while employed by DND. I can imagine the problems we will run into when you are tested, test positive and blame it on off duty use. I can see the CF trying to avoid all of that by having it remain illegal.

 

[Rifleman62]

.....quickly drinking large quantities of water becoming 'intoxicated', and one of them having a fatal overdose.

WATER INTOXICATION (HYPONATREMIA)

CAUSE:  DRINKING TOO MUCH WATER TOO QUICKLY - DILUTION OF THE SODIUM IN THE BLOOD.

SYMPTOMS
1. Symptoms can resemble those of heat stroke or heat exhaustion except body temperature does not rise.
2. Associated with water intake of 10-20 L over a period of a few hours.


FIRST AID
1. When water intoxication is suspected, diagnosis must be made at a medical facility.

 

[Altair]

It's amusing that people think this will change how people approach weed use in the forces.

I know of many people who barely hide the fact they use it off duty, I doubt that's going to change once it's legalized.

 

[JesseWZ]

It's amusing that people think this will change how people approach weed use in the forces.

I know of many people who barely hide the fact they use it off duty, I doubt that's going to change once it's legalized.

And you don't report these (still) illegal actions to your chain of command or the Military Police as you are obligated and ordered to do so?

 

[the 48th regulator]

Keep in mind also for future users that insurance agencies will consider you a "smoker" if you use pot and will adjust your premiums accordingly. Not telling them you smoke could invalidate your future claims.

Never heard of this happening yet, not towards me or other Legal Cannabis users.  Further, there are other methods of injestion other than smoking.

dileas

tess

 

[Altair]

And you don't report these (still) illegal actions to your chain of command or the Military Police as you are obligated and ordered to do so?

:sorry:

Not touching that can of worms.

Besides, with the blind pee tests I'm sure the forces know how many soldiers are using what.

 

[larry Strong]

If your smoking a joint for the first time at lunch I would think you would maybe be a little impaired 

If you are a reqular user I would wager a guess you would be in no worse shape than Bloggins who had a barley sanggie for lunch.

Cheers
Larry

 

[PuckChaser]

It's amusing that people think this will change how people approach weed use in the forces.

I know of many people who barely hide the fact they use it off duty, I doubt that's going to change once it's legalized.

If its legal for the general public, I don't see why we should care in the CAF. Should be treated like alcohol, with an appropriate "toke to work" ratio similar to the 8 hour "bottle to throttle" that's used now. Same system for impaired driving or abuse, it should lead to remedial measures or release much the same as alcohol does.

 

[Jarnhamar]

And you don't report these (still) illegal actions to your chain of command or the Military Police as you are obligated and ordered to do so?

What would happen if I went to an MP detachment and  told them that I know Cpl Smith  was smoking pot off duty?

 

[JesseWZ]

What would happen if I went to an MP detachment and  told them that I know Cpl Smith  was smoking pot off duty?

I'd like to start by pointing out that "off duty" has very little meaning to it when we are talking about (still) illegal drugs (even marijuana). On a visit to Victoria, the PM stated very clearly that possession of MJ was still illegal. (caveats abound here).

The MP detachment would start an investigation. They may hand it off to the National Drug Enforcement Team of the CFNIS if it were serious enough.

They may use the information for intelligence gathering purposes (i.e. where is Cpl Smith getting the drugs? Are others getting them too? Is he selling them? Does he sell other drugs?) or they may attempt to gather evidence of use and then swear what is known as a "Test for Cause" which compels the member to provide a sample. Members may also be investigated for possession, production or trafficking as the situation warrants.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

:sorry:

Not touching that can of worms.

Besides, with the blind pee tests I'm sure the forces know how many soldiers are using what.

Was there a point here?  Whatever point you are trying to make seems to be lost in translation.

You said "Not touching that can of worms." , then you  proceeded to do just that.

 

[Stoker]

If its legal for the general public, I don't see why we should care in the CAF. Should be treated like alcohol, with an appropriate "toke to work" ratio similar to the 8 hour "bottle to throttle" that's used now. Same system for impaired driving or abuse, it should lead to remedial measures or release much the same as alcohol does.

I guess the fact we're not just the public and really at the end of the day they can ban what they want. The drug has been stigmatized for so many years in Canada that I can see Health Services pushing for a general ban just because like smoking can cause harm and the perception to the public of a member off duty. Alcohol is already out there and accepted but not so much of Cannabis yet. As well when we get into the testing aspect to determine on duty and off duty use which will be a large can of worms and I can see a general ban to avoid that as the CF is risk averse.  The cost of the extra testing that will no doubt come is very expensive which police services across Canada are finding out about and are concerned about who will pay. Also remember a sizable amount of the general population do not agree with legalization and I expect the same in the CF, including the decision makers.  I think its a given that the drug won't be allowed on DND property and I can very well see it remain as a service offence. Down the road with more acceptance who knows.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I wonder if the RCN will govern MJ usage like it does booze.  None at sea, 2 joints ashore unless otherwise authorized.

 

[medicineman]

The big issue is going to be in terms of "bottle to throttle" times (I didn't think "Toke to stoke" would work)...an issue with THC is that is a fat soluble drug, which is why it likes your brain so much.  However, because of that, it also is less predictable metabolically as far as degradation, unlike alcohol, which I can pretty much time with a stop watch.  As an extreme, I had a rather obese patient of mine that was a very regular weed smoker that had a safety sensitive job that required regular testing - they were still pissing positive for well over 6 months after they quit, because the stuff was stored in their fat cells...and they were actively losing weight to boot, so it was coming out in droves.  So, we have to either say no use is good use, OR that you'll have to maintain a certain body fat percentage if you want to use.  The other issue of course is abuse - just like alcohol, if you let them have a little, they sometimes take a lot, and continue to.  The standards for misuse/abuse will have to be maintained/adjusted - if you show up stoned, tough tiddly winks just as if you're drunk.

:2c:

MM