Islam and Western Society

[YZT580]

Or it could be the religion's foundation principle of jihad....

Matthew. In almost all Islamic countries it is against the law to be anything other than Muslim.  Proselytizing will result in the death sentence as will changing faith from Muslim to any other form of religion.  With those kinds of laws it is little wonder that there is no diversity.  It is also little wonder that Europe and NA are predominantly "Christian" since that was the faith of those who founded both the US and Canada and the faith of those who conquered SA for that matter.  It is only since WW2 that we have had a preponderance of people of other faiths moving into the west.  Hindu, Buddhist and others are relatively tolerant but Muslims will not live and let live.  Take a real good look at Denmark and Belgium if you want to see the end result of allowing them to set the rules and Britain is rapidly joining them.  There are areas in all 3 countries where Islam reigns supreme and others just stay out (or die).  Some of those reading this thread have mentioned elsewhere that we are repeating the story of tar baby and that may be true.  But doing nothing will result in another fable being enacted here: that of the camel in the tent so chose your fable, I much prefer doing it over there rather than watching it happen here.  Regardless, for you folks who have to carry the load, fly safe and watch your six.  Those of us who can't will be praying for your safety. 

EDIT: fixed the quote box.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

After 9/11 I was very confused.  I could understand how easy it could be to brainwash someone inside a totalitarian state.  I could not understand how people operating outside those monolithic states could continue to be brainwashed when given an opportunity to be enlightened with freedom to learn whatever they wanted.  And so I sought out English translations of the Quran and Hadiths.

Short Version is we in the West struggle to reconcile Islam's hate of "western culture" and reach to find all sorts of complicated explanations such as poverty, demographics, etc.  Most of the time it almost appears guilt-based:  "What have we done to bring this upon ourselves?" to the point we literally take the blame for their actions without even understanding what had happened.

What I believe to be true is that why Islamists hate us is in no way complicated.  In fact it is incredibly simple.  It's because each tenet of the written religion is about the unquestioning conquering and domination of all the world's infidels.  Until there is some sort of Islamic Reformation, nothing will change.

For those struggling with this question, please don't take my word for it.  Please don't read other peoples views.  Take the time to read the Quran and Hadiths with your own eyes and common sense and come to your own conclusions.


M.

 

[BorisK]

After 9/11 I was very confused.  I could understand how easy it could be to brainwash someone inside a totalitarian state.  I could not understand how people operating outside those monolithic states could continue to be brainwashed when given an opportunity to be enlightened with freedom to learn whatever they wanted.  And so I sought out English translations of the Quran and Hadiths.

Short Version is we in the West struggle to reconcile Islam's hate of "western culture" and reach to find all sorts of complicated explanations such as poverty, demographics, etc.  Most of the time it almost appears guilt-based:  "What have we done to bring this upon ourselves?" to the point we literally take the blame for their actions without even understanding what had happened.

What I believe to be true is that why Islamists hate us is in no way complicated.  In fact it is incredibly simple.  It's because each tenet of the written religion is about the unquestioning conquering and domination of all the world's infidels.  Until there is some sort of Islamic Reformation, nothing will change.

For those struggling with this question, please don't take my word for it.  Please don't read other peoples views.  Take the time to read the Quran and Hadiths with your own eyes and common sense and come to your own conclusions.


M.

My honest and best efforts in study of theocracy for over ten years led me to a similar conclusion to yours.  I have a few ideas on how to encourage reformation, but in the meantime, my deepest respect to those who stand watch. 

On a more positive note : Happy thanksgiving to all.  Celebrate. 

 

[CougarKing]

Who would have thought that Malaysia, which is more economically developed in some ways than Indonesia, is actually less open to secular ideas of a liberal Muslim scholar from their neighbour? To think it's also illegal to try to proselytize/convert Muslims to another religion such as Christianity in Malaysia...

Malaysian Insider

Indonesian liberal Muslim scholar on immigration blacklist

A Muslim scholar from Indonesia has been barred from entering the country, the Home Ministry said today.

Dr Ulil Abshar Abdalla, who was scheduled to speak at a roundtable discussion on Islamic fundamentalism, has been barred as "he would mislead the Muslims in the country if he is allowed to spread his brand of liberalism here", Home Minister Datuk Seri Ahmad Zahid Hamidi was quoted as saying by the New Straits Times.

The roundtable discussion entitled "Religious fundamentalism threat in this century" is organised by the Global Movement of Moderates Foundation together with the Islamic Renaissance Front and was scheduled for Saturday, October 18, with Dr Ulil set to arrive on Wednesday.

According to NST Online, Zahid said: "Dr Ulil was invited by local NGOs to speak about liberalism but at the same time we received various reports of those who are against his idea of liberalism."

On Thursday, director-general of the Malaysian Islamic Development Department (Jakim) Datuk Othman Mustapha had called for the entire roundtable discussion to be stopped as it involved the Jaringan Islam Liberal speaker from Indonesia.

Bernama reported Othman as saying that Malaysia held to the edict of the National Fatwa Council in 1996 that only the practices of the Ahli Sunnah Wal Jamaah (Shafie sect) are allowed in the  country.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[Colin Parkinson]

the Whabbi's have Malaysia under tight control, the only thing saving us is the Malays are generally laid back and the majority of them will not stay hardcore, must drive the Pakistani's Jihadist nuts trying to keep them motivated. 

 

[CougarKing]

How can these idiots claim to represent university students in the UK if they have these overt, anti-US/western views?

Spectator

‘Islamophobia’ strikes again – national students’ union refuses to condemn Isis
146 comments 16 October 2014 10:01Douglas Murray

In a world often devoid of good news, there has been a fine development on the farthest-flung shores of insanity. The British National Union of Students aspires to represent students, though traditionally tends only to represent those students who are politically ambitious and possess left wing views. In any case, its latest idiocy is that it has tied itself in knots over the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria – Isis.

A condemnation of the ebullient Islamic group was tabled by a student of Kurdish descent. The Kurds, some people will recall, have not been treated well by Isis of late. Of course such a motion would be fairly pointless. It is unlikely that even one Isis fighter will be persuaded to put down their meat-cleaver because the British NUS has passed a motion against them, however strongly-worded.

But sometimes the symbolism of things matters. It would have been nice if the NUS – which has done so much in recent years to smear and otherwise attack the critics of Islamic extremism – could have found it within itself to condemn Isis. But they didn’t manage it. Specifically, they didn’t manage it because, as student officer reported on his blog, the Black Students officer Malia Bouattia declared that the condemnation of Isis consisted of ‘blatant Islamophobia’, and was a shill for ‘pro USA intervention’ to boot.

In fact the motion – which you can read in full here – is absurdly weakly worded, and rather typically over-heavy on its anti-Americanism. But not enough so for Ms Bouattia and the Black Students section of the NUS, who have now succeeded in stopping any condemnation of the most racist, sectarian group of our time.

As I have often said, the word and charge of ‘Islamophobia’ really is deadly. Today it is deadliest of all for the Kurds, the Christians, the Shia and the Yazidis of Iraq and Syria.

 

[George Wallace]

In the 1930's the UK had Neville Chamberlain.  Now, not only the UK, but all of us have thousands of Neville Chamberlains.

 

[Kirkhill]

Same mob George ....

The King and Country debate took place at the Oxford Union debating society of Oxford University in England on 9 February 1933. The motion, that this House will in no circumstances fight for its King and Country, was carried by 275 votes to 153.[1] It is one of the most famous and notorious debates conducted at the Oxford Union.

...

"It is no mere coincidence that the only country fighting for the cause of peace, Soviet Russia, is the country that has rid itself of the war-mongering clique. The justification urged for the last war was that it was a war to end war. If that were untrue it was a dastardly lie; if it were true, what justification is there for opposition to this motion tonight?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King_and_Country_debate

The same mob that I have encountered amongst the Scots that in all seriousness, while taking home a healthy capitalist paycheck, look forward to:

"Come the day! Up against the wall!"  It was common enough during the recent civilized debates on independence.

The closer I get to retirement, the more enamoured of bullets I become myself.

 

[CougarKing]

Shouldn't a practical reason, such as the need to positively identify the individual taking the oath, be another consideration for the court to rule that the niqabs be taken off during citizenship oath-takings?

Yahoo News/Andy Radia's Canadian Politics column

Muslim groups split on Jason Kenney's no-veil policy for citizenship oaths
By Andy Radia | Canada Politics – 19 hours ago

There’s yet another debate taking place in Canada about niqabs, face coverings and religious accommodation.

This one, however, is not focused on Quebec; it’s happening in an Ontario court. And no, it’s not the result of a separatist government. It’s all thanks to multicultural minister, Conservative Party ethnic outreach king and former immigration minister Jason Kenney.

Back in 2011, Kenney and his government amended regulations to place a ban on face coverings — such as niqabs — for anyone taking an oath of citizenship in front of a citizenship judge.

That change is now being deliberated over by a court.

(...SNIPPED)

On Friday, Kenney took to Twitter to reassert his position.

(...SNIPPED)

But in the case of niqabs  — there’s no unified position on the issue within the Muslim community. 

According to the National Post, the Muslim Canadian Congress lauded Kenney, in 2011, calling it  a “courageous decision.”

"The niqab or burka is a political tool by Islamists who wish to segregate Muslims into religious ghettos, cut off from mainstream society," Farzana Hassan of the Muslim Canadian Congress said in 2011, according to the Post.

(...SNIPPED)

Muslim Council of Montreal leader Salam Elmenyawi, who was one of the key figures in the fight against Quebec Values Charter, says he admires Ishaq’s courage and conviction.

"The only places where there are dress codes like this…are in the dictatorships. Not in Canada, Canada is the place that gives freedom of expression," he told Yahoo Canada News suggesting that Kenney has political reasons for pushing for the change.
(...SNIPPED)

 

[George Wallace]

Shouldn't a practical reason, such as the need to positively identify the individual taking the oath, be another consideration for the court to rule that the niqabs be taken off during citizenship oath-takings?

Yahoo News/Andy Radia's Canadian Politics column

Indeed.  As they will also have to have a photo taken for their Citizenship Card, just like a Drivers Licence, how would we be able to identify the person if she is masked?  The cards would be easily passed between many masked women for activities and seeking benefits.  It would promote fraud of our Health Care system, our Highway Acts, and not to mention a security concern for those issuing Passports. 

Those forms of dress are after all cultural, not religious.

 

[CougarKing]

More of the barbarism that shouldn't have a place in today's modern societies...

Reuters

Saudi Arabia steps up beheadings; some see political message
Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:52am

(...SNIPPED)

A sudden surge in public executions in Saudi Arabia in the last two months has coincided with a U.S.-led bombing campaign against Islamic State. This has led to inevitable comparisons in Western media between Islamic State's beheadings and those practiced in Saudi Arabia.

Defenders of the Saudi death penalty say beheadings, usually with a single sword stroke, are at least as humane as lethal injections in the United States. They deplore any comparison between the kingdom's execution of convicted criminals and Islamic State's extra-judicial killing of innocent hostages.

But rights activists say they are more concerned by the justice system behind the death penalty in the kingdom than by its particular method of execution. And critics of the Al Saud ruling family say the latest wave of executions may have a political message, with Riyadh determined to demonstrate its toughness at a moment of regional turmoil.

Saudi Arabia beheaded 26 people in August, more than in the first seven months of the year combined. The total for the year now stands at 59, compared to 69 for all of last year, according to Human Rights Watch.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[CougarKing]

Meanwhile, in France...

International Business Times

Paris Opera House Expels Woman for Wearing Niqab after Cast Refuses to Perform La Traviata

By Ludovica Iaccino | IB Times – 13 hours ago

A Muslim woman wearing a niqab has been forced to leave a theatre in France after the cast refused to perform in protest against her attire.

The niqab is a traditional Muslim garment which covers the head and chest, with the exception of the eyes. It is illegal in France.

The incident occurred during the performance of La Traviata at Opera Bastille in Paris, the opera house's deputy director Jean-Philippe Thiellay told AFP.

The episode is believed to have happened on 3 October. However, French media did not report it until Sunday [19 October].

The woman, from the Gulf State, was visiting France with her companion. She was asked to remove the veil or leave the theatre as "performers said they didn't want to sing," Thiellay explained.

After the deputy-director was made aware of the cast's request, an usher approached the woman.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[Kirkhill]

Apparently "toleration" doesn't survive in French dictionaries....

Another defining characteristic of that nation ... they only ever have room for one thought at a time.

 

[pbi]

My current project at work is requiring me to travel to Europe quite a bit (Norway, Belgium and Germany). On my last trip to Norway, I was surprised to see Norwegian soldiers who were visible minority members. When I was deploying to North Norway in the 90's under AMF(L) and NCF, that idea was unheard of.

This current situation in Norway provoked our team into a discussion of immigration in NW Europe, and why it so often doesn't work well at all. Immigrants seem to have a much worse time being accepted in Europe than they do in Canada or the US.

Of course, France came up as an example of a country that seems to struggle very badly with this whole business, to the point that they seem to think it is OK to tell people what clothes to wear. It's only a short jump to the infamous "Protection of Values" bill that the now-defeated PQ Govt proposed, and which seemed to have similar levels of fear-driven support.

Is there a disposition in Gallic culture towards this view of "The Other"?

I'm fine with stopping immigrants from engaging in barbarous, oppressive or illegal behaviours, but I really couldn't care less what they wear. (And, yes...official government photos should require a full face view)

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I'm fine with stopping immigrants from engaging in barbarous, oppressive or illegal behaviours, but I really couldn't care less what they wear. (And, yes...official government photos should require a full face view)

THANK YOU! 

 

[cryco]

I believe it's not so much wanting to deny newcomers to look differently, it stems from the fear of assimilation, but the other way around.
Here in Quebec, the francos, from what i gathered (my opinion alone) don't have a problem with any religion or clothing or customs, but the fear of being absorbed into NA and the general culture, along with the english language triggers a some sort of protection mechanism.
In order not to lose our identity (I consider myself both - but disagree with a charter), strength in numbers seems to be a way out, so, require that people look like you, talk like you and think like you and tada! A make believe scenario that would supposedly preserve the culture. Now add an exponent to this, and you get France's situation.

 

[CougarKing]

From bullying to outright intimidation, as seen in this incident last year:

Source:American Thinker

November 25, 2013
British Teacher Coerces Kids to Join in Muslim Workshop
By M. Catharine Evans

"A Staffordshire primary school in England tried to force 8 and 11 year-olds to attend an "Explore Islam" workshop by intimidating their parents. The Head Teacher of Littleton Green Community School sent a letter home threatening to brand the children as 'racist' if they opted out."

Refusal to allow your child to attend this trip will result in a Racial Discrimination note being attached to your child's education record, which will remain on this file throughout their school career.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[YZT580]

There are a number of reasons why assimilation doesn't work in Europe.  1.  jobs  - employment opportunities are scarce and the feeling is that the immigrants are taking all the positions  2.  fear  -  there are many areas throughout a number of major cities where indigenous people dare not walk.  Sharia rules are strictly applied by gangs of youth.  The police seldom enter and even more rarely act to enforce the law.  Those cities that aren't affected yet have taken note.  Fear rules. 3.  Crime - crime statistics in both Sweden and Denmark have shown a large upswing particularly rape and assault.  The majority of these crimes are committed by 5% of the population, yes, the Muslim immigrants  Norway in particular has seen this happen and, whether the government acknowledges it or not, the people are less than receptive to having these same minorities allowed into their country.  In addition, the minorities have established street gangs that are rude, intimidating, and belligerent.  When these thugs specialize in swarming.  A 40 something husband with a pot belly, wearing glasses and escorting his wife is easy prey and there are dozens of examples in the neighbourhood but curiously not in the news to ensure that everyone is becoming hostile to the very idea of immigration.  Those stories from north England regarding numerous assaults on children are heard in many other centres as well.  People are living in fear so when devote Muslims show up in veil and scarf it becomes an in your face threat rather than a being simply a person being true to his/her particular religious practices.  I apologise if I seem to be on a rant but these are the things I observed and heard through years of living there.  The change has occurred only in the last 5 years or so. 

 

[pbi]

There are a number of reasons why assimilation doesn't work in Europe.  1.  jobs  - employment opportunities are scarce and the feeling is that the immigrants are taking all the positions...

I think this might be a reason, but the anti-immigrant feeling also exists in Germany, where the employment situation is considerably better than say, Italy or Greece.

2.  fear  -  there are many areas throughout a number of major cities where indigenous people dare not walk.  Sharia rules are strictly applied by gangs of youth.  The police seldom enter and even more rarely act to enforce the law.  Those cities that aren't affected yet have taken note.  Fear rules.

What cities did you have in mind? I would be interested to hear where these are. The suburbs of Paris seem to be in a bad state, in some cases.

e 3.  Crime - crime statistics in both Sweden and Denmark have shown a large upswing particularly rape and assault.  The majority of these crimes are committed by 5% of the population, yes, the Muslim immigrants  Norway in particular has seen this happen and, whether the government acknowledges it or not, the people are less than receptive to having these same minorities allowed into their country... The change has occurred only in the last 5 years or so. 

I was in Stavanger, which is a very modern and well-off city on the southwest coast of Norway. One of the expat Canadians we were working with there plays hockey with the Stavanger police force team. He related that his team mates say their biggest concerns are drugs and rape. These have nothing to do with Muslims, but are connected to the oil industry crews (especially drilling ships) who come into port frequently. From talking to folks while I was there, the immigrant situation in Norway doesn't seem nearly as bad as it does in say, France, Holland or southern Europe. There is a very small right wing anti-immigrant movement in Norway, but most Norgies regard it as idiot fringe.
Norway's official policy is to bring in immigrants who are coming from areas where human rights are at most risk, which seems to have popular support. The generally high levels of education and standard of living in Norway may also have a bearing on the situation. If there were large numbers of poor, ignorant Norwegians their view of immigrants migt be quite different.

 

[The Bread Guy]

There are a number of reasons why assimilation doesn't work in Europe.  1.  jobs  - employment opportunities are scarce and the feeling is that the immigrants are taking all the positions 

When I was in Italy last year, the only jobs I saw foreigners doing were those that university-educated folks, for some reason, weren't doing:  personal care aides for the infirm, street cleaners, etc.  Like with parts of the U.S. that have a lot of immigrant labour, it's a "problem" that they're foreigners, but it would be a BIGGER problem if those (often underpaid) foreigners were told en masse, "can't work, off you go then."