Islam and Western Society

[George Wallace]

This is a very controversial question.    With the recent actions of extreme Islamic Fundamentalists around the world, in Iraq, Spain, Russia and many other places and the fear of moderate Muslims to act against or voice opposition to the radicals, are the grounds for a 'Reverse Jihad' in the makings?

I don't want to call it a "Holy War" like the Crusades, where Christianity and Islam clashed in the distant past, but perhaps and "UnHoly War" in which all nations of the world....all religions; band together to totally end the madness and eradicate Islam from the face of the earth.   These fanatics have no compassion, even for their own religion, and keep them in fear, and attack any who are not of their faith; be it Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddist, etc.   It is not only the West who are becoming more aggravated by these terror tactics, but also the East (Nepal, India, Pakistan) who are also being targeted.   What will happen when the 'Sleeping Dragon' China is awakened?

Unless the moderates start turning in the 'Fanatics', are we headed for a major disruption of our societies?   Will we see Islam banned from nations other than those in the Middle East?   What does the future hold in store for us?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I for one would hate to see such an action being taken. Does ethic cleansing, genocide or mass murder ring a bell? What are we going to do next forced conversions? I have quite a few friends that follow Islam and always get upset when terrorists use their religion as a scapegoat and as a way of promoting their evil agenda. Is there a solution for dealing with terrorists whether they follow Buddha, Allah, Jesus or two headed space monkeys?Thats beyond my pay level but the day the CF starts rounding up people to put in "labour or resettlemet camps" is the day I get out

 

[Torlyn]

This is a very controversial question.  With the recent actions of extreme Islamic Fundamentalists around the world, in Iraq, Spain, Russia and many other places and the fear of moderate Muslims to act against or voice opposition to the radicals, are the grounds for a 'Reverse Jihad' in the makings?

Unless the moderates start turning in the 'Fanatics', are we headed for a major disruption of our societies?  Will we see Islam banned from nations other than those in the Middle East?  What does the future hold in store for us?

Eradicate the Islamic religion from the face of the earth?  I think the last person that thought like that on a grand scale was Adolph Hitler.  Hopefully we've learned enough since then to not repeat that particular mistake.  Just because a few Islamic extremists have done some stupid things doesn't mean you should paint the entire religion with the same brush.  I sincerely hope you posted this just to play devil's advocate...  As well, keep in mind that there are WAY more Islamic people than Christian.  Islam is a more "popular" religion than Christianity...  You may have a hard time gathering conscripts.

B.N.S.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I don't see this as a religious thing at all. Its about power or more concisely,the need to achieve power. The assholes in the Russian school were NOT followers of Islam, that might have been the religion they were born or claim to be but there is a big difference of convenience and commitment.
I don't believe in the God thing[wish I did but can't fake it] however if you were to ask me what religion I am I would state" United" as thats what I was born. If I take hostages does this make me a "united terrorist" or just another asshole?
As for the original question this is going to be hard to stop as they hide behind the cloakings of the "moderate" Islam when it suits their purpose, I predict a long and bloody decade ahead of us.  The kind our great-great grand-children will read about and shake their heads wondering how man could ever be that barbaric.

 

[Pieman]

I think what George Wallace is suggesting requires that the Islamic world would have to band together against the rest of the world. I don't think that would ever happen on a large enough scale that the rest of the world would see the religion itself as a threat, rather than a group of extremist people.

The religion itself is not the problem here, the religion is used as a front or an excuse for their actions. What the primary motivation for the actions they take is the core of the issue. If the extremists were true believers of the faith, they would not kill the innocent. So if the attitude is 'kill all the non-believers' it is a front to assert and maintain power for their tribe, the religion is just the excuse used to take the action. The book 'The Lucifer Principle' explains this kind of human behaviour in detail.

So in my book, it would never happen because these extremist groups will always remain small. But I am afraid that Bruce's prediction is probably going to be very true as there seem to be more extremist groups taking action. Tough times on the horizon.

 

[winchable]

Someone has posed this question to my face, in a serious and frank discussion, so I took no offence. I don't take offence to what Mr. Wallace is asking either.
I compare this idea to the Atkins diet, believe it or not.

Studies have shown the Atkins diet, while producing good short term results, actually does a great deal of harm in the long run. One of the few reasons it's still being used is because people like the easy way out, and lets face it, if anyones tried the Atkins diet...you knew it was too good to be true. Anything really good, is going to take hard work and a long time...eradication of an entire religion (and most likely in the progress an entire ethnic group) may seem like a daunting task, but compared with the other option, slug it out and do a proper job at it.

Without arguing the basic logistics of how one would go about eradicating Islam, I believe (Simply an opinion) no matter how bad it may seem at the time(bombings, death destruction) eradicating the entire religion would have rammifications that would last as long has human beings have a recorded history on the planet earth.

Just so we're clear, there are over 1 Billion Muslims living on the planet. To eradicate every last one would require a systematic genocide the likes of which I don't think have ever been seen, or ever will be seen again. So once again, on a personal note I sincerely hope that this doesn't happen. I would die (and I suppose i really would!) knowing that humanity will have to live with this kind of thing on their conscience until what I would presume to be, the end of existence.

Oh and folks...tread carefully on this one..it does have potential..but could just as easily incite illogical and passionate hate.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I think its been asked and answered.  There is nothing 'fundamental' about so-called Islamics waging open war against everyone else in the world; we're lucky that right now, people understand that - including those in a position to do something about fighting Islam (read: United States).

I'd be more concerned about a genocide of the Palestinians as that is starting to look like a better idea all the tiime to some people.

Never understood the big deal about what kind of church my neighbour prays in, but as Bruce points out correctly, these things are rarely about religion per se anyhow.

 

[Infanteer]

I think you're referring to "The Fence".  I don't know if the term "genocide" would be a good term of reference for "The Fence" or for the Palestinian issue in general.  A recent article in Foreign Affairs has argued that places in which the Fence is completed have experienced a dramatic decrease in the level of violence perpetrated against civilians.  Whether or not it will work remains to be seen, but as I see it, I don't have to see destroyed buses full of daytime shoppers as much anymore.

Far from "genocidal solutions", I feel the wall can convince the Palestinians that their fate is in their own hands.  Their actions can tip the balance between a move to peace or one to further violence.  The problem is, they have let their people become the whipping boy for everybody with an agenda against Westernism/Consumerism/the UN/Judaeism/Progress in General.

Don't like the Jewish settlers setting up their own state?  Tell the Palestinians to uproot themselves under the notion that they may return when every Hebrew man, woman, and child has been driven into the sea.

Don't like the fact that "Zionist occupationists" are still around after trouncing your third-rate, Soviet backed army in the field and you are stuck with a large refugee population of people waiting to go back into a Palestine devoid of Jews?  Forcibly eject them from your country using the same military force in attacks on their ad hoc communities, resulting in violence that is worse than any Jewish action against Palestinians.

Don't like the fact that a political solution that does not include the existence of Israel is impossible?  Radicalize your society, spend any development money from the international community on turning your organization into a criminal terrorist empire, and strap explosives to angry youth and send them into throngs of innocent people trying to live out their lives.  (Pakistan did the same thing in the 1980s to heighten Resistance against India, they are now suffering the consequences of this)

I'm all for a resolution in the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, one that is fair to all the people who inhabit that tortured land.  But the Palestinian people need to grow up, realize that they will not solve anything by trying to commit random acts of mass murder against Jewish civilians, and take their destiny into their own hands rather then leaving it up to autocratic Tyrants, rabid Mullahs, and the corrupt machinations of that terrorist Arafat (who has done nothing but stall any effort to peace).

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Infanteer, good post!
What really scares the Palestinian "leaders" of whatever movement they follow is that if the wall goes up the people might see that without the artificial proppings of hate, these clowns couldn't lead a dog to a bone.
I predict that  the completion of the wall will eventually be the catalyst to start the internal revolution necessary to bring the long suffering Palestinian people to their destiny

 

[Torlyn]

Yes, because building a wall between two ideologically opposed groups is a good idea.  Berlin wall sure worked, didn't it.  I agree we need a solution, but a wall?  Seems to be backsliding to me...  Is the wall really going to keep out determined suicide bombers?  I doubt it...  Probably cause more military casualties, as they'll still be performing their acts of terrorism, but at checkpoints instead.  `spose that's why we have checkpoints, but I'd still rather not see a new berlin wall built.

B.N.S.

 

[Gunnerlove]

A little off topic, but placing the blame on either the Israelis or the Palestinians can not be done. Both sides have done horrible things and are reaping the rewards.

What we are seeing in Palestine is the result of hatred and dehumanization by both sides. It will take decades to repair relations, if not longer. Build the wall and hide behind it, soon you will have to think up a solution to the changing demographics on the Israeli side.

(Israeli Arabs are allowed to vote but are barred from most public jobs and the military. I doubt it will remain as such for much longer as the Arabs are outbreeding the Jewish citizens by a great deal and soon they will have control of the Israeli democracy.)

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Comparing this wall to the Berlin wall is ludicrous, that wall split up a country that wanted to be whole.
If this was happening out west or in Quebec/Maritimes.[Ont thought ahead, we have our wall] I would want a divider. Who wouldn't except those whom it helps to keep the madness moving along?

 

[George Wallace]

Some interesting points coming up, but there seems to be a tendency to swing towards the light like moths and change the subject to the Israelis and Palestinians.  The problem is more wide ranging than that.

Why I am asking these questions, is because of a talk show I caught portions of today that was discussing some of the reactions to the Terrorists who have for the last decade been Muslims.  A comment was brought up on the show about a radical Muslim group that once again was planning a celebration in England to mark the date of 9/11.  Last year they wanted to celebrate the 19 "Martyrs", but cancelled it at the last minute.  A well educated Muslim woman phoned in and clarified some things about the Islamic faith and went on to say that she and many moderates condemned the actions of the terrorists in Russia, but said that she was afraid to condemn them publicly.  She said that there are Radicals here in Canada, in Ottawa. 

Will the escalation of any more terror tactics by the Radicals, and no condemnation of their actions by the moderates of that faith, condemn them to a backlash worse that what we have seen before?  Will the rest of the world pull off a 'knee-jerk Chretien reaction and focus on all Muslims and drive them out?

Most Western nations are quite tolerant of different races, religions, etc., but will continued escalation of Terror change that?

GW

 

[Torlyn]

Will the escalation of any more terror tactics by the Radicals, and no condemnation of their actions by the moderates of that faith, condemn them to a backlash worse that what we have seen before?  Will the rest of the world pull off a 'knee-jerk Chretien reaction and focus on all Muslims and drive them out?

Most Western nations are quite tolerant of different races, religions, etc., but will continued escalation of Terror change that?

GW

Thanks for re-focusing..    I'm starting to see your point as well..  (I applaud your patience)I think that given some of the reaction we have seen from some western nations, (or at least their citizens) it is indeed a major concern.  We are already racially profiling at airports, border-crossings, etc.  IF the terror activities increase, will we, if not condemning islam, more tightly regulate it?  It's kind of scary, and seems to be a downward spiral.  We get tough on "target" groups, who in turn resent being targeted, and (perhaps) nudge some moderates toward the extreme..  Obviously, I have no answer.  You have, however, given me much pause to think about this subject, which is still an answer of sorts.  To acknowledge the problem is the first step in solving it.  George, a big plus on the ratings for you.

(a more humble) B.N.S.

 

[winchable]

I'm sorry George, I'm just wondering if you could clarify your ideas again, really spell it out. I feel I'm missing something here.

 

[Slim]

Personally I think the terrorists (I won't call them Muslims because there is nothing in the Koran that says doing this to your neighbours is OK) want to try and drive a wedge between Muslims and the rest of the world.

They want the anti-Muslim backlash so that even the moderates who just want to live in peace, will be forced to take up arms against  the "Zionist west"

Then they will truly have a war of religion.

But the terrorists...Just the disenfranchised of the world using a different name...And they're criminals, not freedom fighters. Criminals who need to be placed in a cage so that society can live in peace.

Cheers all.

Slim

 

[pbi]

If we are talking about targeting terrorists who threaten us or our allies, I'm with you. No question about that, whether they're Catholic IRA, Protestant Unionists, Sikh plane bombers or Islamic fundamentalists.

If, however, we are talking about a 21st Century Crusade, as posited by some of the more mouth-breathing elements of the religious Right in the US, then sorry, you're on your own. Several posters have pointed out the dangers there.

The problem, IMHO, comes from our perception of Islam. Before coming over here to Afghanistan, I made it a point to read whatever I could get my hands on about Islam, including a good primer assembled by our Bde Chaplain. Unlike most Western Christians, who long ago learned to compartmentalize their faith from their daily life, keeping it in a box for Sunday/Easter/Christmas, Muslims' everyday life is informed by their beliefs. They do not need to be in church to communicate with God. For the most part, from what I can make out, Islam is a very pragmatic religion: almost common sense. In particular it expresses kinship and respect for the other two "peoples of The Book": Christians and Jews. They regard our God and Allah as the same deity. So, because their faith informs all aspects of their life, it is inseparable from the way they do politics or fight wars.That is, for those Muslims who respect the teachings of their faith. They have backdsliders, same as any religion does.

However, I think we see this all through the lens of our cultural upbringing (I'm talking about WASP or liberal-Catholic mainstream middle class Canadian upbringing...) and see it as a dangerous confusion of "church and state". We assume that religious faith must require a mindless, unquestioning obedience that unavoidably leads to slaughter, suicide bombing, etc. I suggest that while those who engage in these acts will certainly produce an Islamic justification for doing so, the real issue is one of power or the lack thereof. In my opinion, Islamic fundamentalism is strongest in those places where the Islamic population is the most disposessed and powerless, or is in a struggle for power (such as in Pakistan). It is weakest amongst Islamic people who live in relative peace and security (Canada, the US, the UK).

So, let's go after the real baddies, through intelligence sharing, border control, good international police work, and military whack/smack as required. But let's not degenerate to the level of those we seek to defeat. Cheers.

 

[NavyGrunt]

I don't believe in Islam. I dont believe that it is a similar religion to Christianity, however I do believe in someones right to believe any religion they choose. Any set of belief patterns they want. I would never seek to impose my beliefs on someone else. If they want to talk thats fine I'll share.

Worship a TV set for all I care, however use your beliefs as a recruiting tool for soldiers and terrorists and we have an issue. If you'll live in peace with me and mine I'll live in peace with you and yours.

 

[bossdog]

I've spent the last two days trying to figure out a way to script my thoughts on this issue so nobody takes offence or gets the wrong impression.

Basically, my views or school of thought, relates to the link between certain religions and their morals and ethics.

I don't think that that terrorism is linked directly to any sect or religion, rather they can be tied to the way of life and culture that is associated with a religions general population.

The media portrays Islamic cultures to be very aggressive, demanding and protective. How much truth there is to this, I don't know. As a Christian, I was raised with the fear of an all loving God, and respect for others, regardless of their actions or lifestyle.

Here is a quote from an article I was reading:

Most Muslims are not profound Koranic analysts. For a vast number of "believing" Muslim men, "Islam" stands, in a jumbled, half-examined way, not only for the fear of God â ” the fear more than the love, one suspects â ” but also for a cluster of customs, opinions and prejudices that include their dietary practices; the sequestration or near-sequestration of "their" women; the sermons delivered by their mullahs of choice; a loathing of modern society in general, riddled as it is with music, godlessness and sex; and a more particularized loathing (and fear) of the prospect that their own immediate surroundings could be taken over â ” "Westoxicated" â ” by the liberal Western-style way of life.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/rushdie/yes_its_about_islam.htm

There is a slew of articles that can offer a huge amount of insight into all the issues wrt Islam, Muslims, morals and ethics that can be found here:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles.htm#terrorism

I encourage all users that are interested in this thread to give it a browse.

I hope that I didn't get too lost in my thoughts for anybody here.

 

[48Highlander]

Look at Christianity in the early days.  Someone in a villiage gets sick?  Find a suspicious looking woman and burn her to death.  She must have been a witch.  They feard science the same way Islamic extremists fear western culture, and any sort of thought that went against the teachings of the bible was considered ground for torture or death. 

So how can any Christian really judge Islam for the things being done in it`s name now?  The religion itself isn't the problem.  Like with any other religion, it's the sadistic bastards who misinterpret it and use it as a device for controlling others that are the problem.  And the social/political situation that exists in some Islamic countries makes it almost impossible for anyone to change that.  One thing that`s easy to notice is that the ammount of religious control practiced within a given country is usualy tied to it`s economic situation.  A country in poverty creates more people looking to God for a solution, as well as creating more opportunities to misuse religious beleifs in order to take advantage of others.  A prosperous country creates the opposite.  Extremists, those who seek to control others through the use of religion, will always exist, in every country and every religion.  Just look at Pat Roberts.  But when people are have food, water, are educated, entertained and comfortable, they generaly tend to ignore people like that.