Forced to pay / belong to a mess [Merged]

[a_majoor]

You could also make the same argument about Mess Dues. Why should members be forced to pay Mess Dues when it is a requirement to be a part of a Mess?

All anyone really has to do is walk past a mess and look in the windows. I have served for many years and across many different bases and the vast majority of the time, regardless of where I go, the place is empty or has only a small handful of people inside. If they want to go that is fine, the real argument is why should everyone else be forced to pay for their entertainment choices?

 

[jollyjacktar]

Some of us don’t like the repricusions. Something about it being a parade therefore mandatory.

You pays your money you take your chances, as the saying goes.  Besides, there's far more members here than can attend.  And if one has a signed and stamped pass...it's worth a day's leave for me.

 

[captloadie]

I have a friend who works in a Senior position at a civilian company. It isn't a huge company, and his salary is comparable to a senior Capt/Major. While the office norm is shirt and tie, suits are expected at business meetings. There is the occasional Black Tie affair he is invited to, where a tux is the expectation (and a formal dress for the spouse if attending). Guess what? He doesn't get a clothing allowance. He pays for his attire out of salary. And he doesn't wear the same shabby suit every meeting, because he understands that his appearance reflects on the company, and him personally. He could decline the invitations to attend the Black Tie events, but he also understands that schmoozing is all part of the game of making contacts and furthering his career.

I am getting tired of this growing attitude that "Unless its paid for by the crown, I can't be forced to do it" or "I can't be forced to attend things on my own time".

 

[brihard]

I have a friend who works in a Senior position at a civilian company. It isn't a huge company, and his salary is comparable to a senior Capt/Major. While the office norm is shirt and tie, suits are expected at business meetings. There is the occasional Black Tie affair he is invited to, where a tux is the expectation (and a formal dress for the spouse if attending). Guess what? He doesn't get a clothing allowance. He pays for his attire out of salary. And he doesn't wear the same shabby suit every meeting, because he understands that his appearance reflects on the company, and him personally. He could decline the invitations to attend the Black Tie events, but he also understands that schmoozing is all part of the game of making contacts and furthering his career.

I am getting tired of this growing attitude that "Unless its paid for by the crown, I can't be forced to do it" or "I can't be forced to attend things on my own time".

We don’t work for a private/for-profit employer, so your comparison is of little value. The bar to meet is “is it right for this to be coerced?” not “what happens in other completely unrelated career fields?” Yes, in some other fields people have to essentially brand and market themselves. Got it. That is not the nature of our employment. If they want to justify forcing people to pay for something they should be starting with an absolute clean slate and justifying why the coercive powers of military law ought to be brought to bear on a matter.

 

[winnipegoo7]

I have a friend who works in a Senior position at a civilian company. It isn't a huge company, and his salary is comparable to a senior Capt/Major. While the office norm is shirt and tie, suits are expected at business meetings. There is the occasional Black Tie affair he is invited to, where a tux is the expectation (and a formal dress for the spouse if attending). Guess what? He doesn't get a clothing allowance. He pays for his attire out of salary. And he doesn't wear the same shabby suit every meeting, because he understands that his appearance reflects on the company, and him personally. He could decline the invitations to attend the Black Tie events, but he also understands that schmoozing is all part of the game of making contacts and furthering his career.

I am getting tired of this growing attitude that "Unless its paid for by the crown, I can't be forced to do it" or "I can't be forced to attend things on my own time".

Lol, you admit that your friend has a choice to attend these events....

 

[mariomike]

Lol, you admit that your friend has a choice to attend these events....

Lol, he also said....

but he also understands that schmoozing is all part of the game of making contacts and furthering his career.

Whatever your career, I have read that non-reimbursable expenses are part of the cost of doing business.

I am getting tired of this growing attitude that "Unless its paid for by the crown, I can't be forced to do it" or "I can't be forced to attend things on my own time".

See also,

The "Paying For a Mess Dinner" Merged Thread 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/41585.0/nowap.html
11 pages.

 

[Pusser]

We don’t work for a private/for-profit employer, so your comparison is of little value. The bar to meet is “is it right for this to be coerced?” not “what happens in other completely unrelated career fields?” Yes, in some other fields people have to essentially brand and market themselves. Got it. That is not the nature of our employment. If they want to justify forcing people to pay for something they should be starting with an absolute clean slate and justifying why the coercive powers of military law ought to be brought to bear on a matter.

The fact that you refer to "our employment" is part of the problem.  We are not regular "employees," but rather something well beyond that.  I truly don't understand why anyone would not take advantage of the things messes offer (perhaps not everything, but at least some of it).  We all get to be members of one of the most exclusive clubs in town at a very low cost.  There are many in civil society who are extremely envious of what we have, yet there are many inside the armed forces who couldn't care less.  By and large, I have gotten far more out of my mess dues than I've ever paid in.  If you don't take advantage of what the mess offers, that's your problem.  If you don't like what the mess has to offer, get involved and bring about the things you want.  It's not that hard.

If you've never been to a mess dinner, you've missed out on one of the coolest things about military service and have had a life less lived.

 

[winnipegoo7]

Lol, he also said....

... but he also understands that schmoozing is all part of the game of making contacts and furthering his career.

Exactly. CL's argument is that this person chooses to attend extra events at their own expense because he sees a benefit to his career. This is obviously not the case with Military members being forced to attend events at their own expense.

It's a poor argument.

...If you've never been to a mess dinner, you've missed out on one of the coolest things about military service and have had a life less lived.

Agree 100% I love going to the mess and I love mess dinners, but what is the obsession with forcing people to go?  If they don't want to attend/ participate I don't want them there.

 

[mariomike]

CL's argument is that this person chooses to attend extra events at their own expense because he sees a benefit to their career. 

Some employers may choose to replace employees who choose not to attend extra events at their own expense with those who will.

The most extreme example being a "Salaryman" in Japan: "Salarymen are expected to work long hours, additional overtime, to participate in after-work leisure activities such as drinking and visiting hostess bars with colleagues, and to value work over all else."

If you don't choose to participate, "You are loosening the tendrils that are holding you to the institution, and at the first high wind that comes along, you will be uprooted and blown away, and will probably never know the reason why."

 

[jollyjacktar]

Agree 100% I love going to the mess and I love mess dinners, but what is the obsession with forcing people to go?  If they don't want to attend/ participate I don't want them there.

I couldn't agree more.  If you love them, please, do enjoy.  I would rather, for myself, to just be left alone, thank you very much.  The mess isn't for everyone.

 

[Gunner98]

I always considered mess dues to be union dues and mess dinners like family dinners arranged by the Old Man.  Suck it up and try to enjoy yourself you never know when you need them in your corner.

 

[jollyjacktar]

At least you can claim union dues at tax time.  Mind you, when I was a member of a union, it was only good for leeching your dues out each month.  We were less than enthused with the value bought for our money.

 

[brihard]

The fact that you refer to "our employment" is part of the problem.  We are not regular "employees," but rather something well beyond that.  I truly don't understand why anyone would not take advantage of the things messes offer (perhaps not everything, but at least some of it).  We all get to be members of one of the most exclusive clubs in town at a very low cost.  There are many in civil society who are extremely envious of what we have, yet there are many inside the armed forces who couldn't care less.  By and large, I have gotten far more out of my mess dues than I've ever paid in.  If you don't take advantage of what the mess offers, that's your problem.  If you don't like what the mess has to offer, get involved and bring about the things you want.  It's not that hard.

If you've never been to a mess dinner, you've missed out on one of the coolest things about military service and have had a life less lived.

On the contrary I quite actively attend my regiment's Sgts & WO's mess, and I usually enjoy the mess events I'm able to attend. Always have. I *choose* to attend them, and as a reservist I very easily could avoid them entirely if I wished to. And I will be purchasing mess dress once the army settles on a few outstanding standardization issues pertaining to my regiment's mess dress.

Our relationship with the military is still one of employment. I grant that it's very far from conventional employee-employer relationships, but we are still paid servants of the crown in a democratic society. It's not inappropriate to be critical of the nature of the legal relationship between ourselves and our employer and to occasionally ask if certain thinks make sense and are justified. We face a great many constraints and limitations, most of which make sense- but not all of them. An officer being told that it is illegal *not* to buy mess dress within six months of commissioning is just absurd, for a number of valid reasons that have been pointed out farther upthread.

There is nothing inherent in the employment of a regular force officer, versus a reservist, or a WO, NCO, or junior rank, that makes Mess Dress uniquely requisite for them. Its purely one of the lingering facets of classism that still permeate commonwealth militaries. It's not inherently defensible as a requirement, certainly not when the consequences can be the military justice system and everything that entails.

 

[dapaterson]

There is nothing inherent in the employment of a regular force officer, versus a reservist, or a WO, NCO, or junior rank, that makes Mess Dress uniquely requisite for them. Its purely one of the lingering facets of classism that still permeate commonwealth militaries. It's not inherently defensible as a requirement, certainly not when the consequences can be the military justice system and everything that entails.

This plus 1,000,000.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The Mess.  Some of us are actually away from home, frequently and for varying pieces of time.  Some of the time we're not away from our postal codes, we spent 50%, sometimes more, sometimes less...on standy from 4pm Friday until 8am Monday.  In short, the CAF gets more than their pound of flesh out of us, and when we have time we're not on an electronic leash or away we feel like we've spent enough time with our comrades in arms, between eating with them, travelling with them, flying with them.  Sometimes what we REALLY want is time AWAY from the job and your crewmates;  because you spend some much time with them anyways.  If I am home on a Friday, and not on call (those 2 things were not very common the last several years), I don't want to give that time to anything except my wife and myself. 

Mess dinners?  Make them a parade.  Make them a Thursday evening.  Make the afternoon before "off", and people report for 10am the next morning for a ground training ('no work/training') day.  Let them go home/min manning early on Friday.  Make it a fun, relaxed, enjoyable time and make it part of a 'reward' to the unit, a time of relaxation and recognition and don't make it dig into 'another weekend'.

You'll have no argument from me then;  BUT from what I've seen the past...decade or so...is what is called a "Mess Dinner" is more a "Unit Formal Dinner" than a Mess Dinner.  I looked forward to Mess Dinners;  WOs and Sgts Mess, etc dinners.

 

[ballz]

The fact that you refer to "our employment" is part of the problem.  We are not regular "employees," but rather something well beyond that.  I truly don't understand why anyone would not take advantage of the things messes offer (perhaps not everything, but at least some of it).  We all get to be members of one of the most exclusive clubs in town at a very low cost.  There are many in civil society who are extremely envious of what we have, yet there are many inside the armed forces who couldn't care less.  By and large, I have gotten far more out of my mess dues than I've ever paid in.  If you don't take advantage of what the mess offers, that's your problem.  If you don't like what the mess has to offer, get involved and bring about the things you want.  It's not that hard.

If you've never been to a mess dinner, you've missed out on one of the coolest things about military service and have had a life less lived.

Wowzers, take it easy on the Koolaid!

 

[runormal]

I'm curious, how much roughly are mess dinners in the reg/f likewise mess dues? For myself it's a minisucle cost that I couldn't care less. The savings on beers after work easily pay for itself.

Typically for mess dinners I'll break even as it's always charged by rank.

 

[PuckChaser]

So I'm just curious, how much roughly are mess dinners in the reg/f likewise mess dues?

Depends on your rank. A dinner for me as a Sgt is usually 60 bucks, and maybe 3 times a year (2 are optional). Mess dues are 18 bucks and change a month, was 10 as a MCpl. I also get free food every Friday.

I really don't see the big deal, but $400 a year isn't my hill to die on. Some people would complain if the mess was free but they had to attend all functions.

 

[mariomike]

I'm curious, how much roughly are mess dinners in the reg/f likewise mess dues?

You may find these discussions of interest ( may have to allow for inflation ),

How much do you pay for mess dues?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/96315.0
3 pages.

Mess dues preauthorized withdrawals 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/118091.0

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I usually pay about $30 for a Sqn dinner, and $19 a month for dues (WOs and Sgts Mess).  Jnr Ranks is somewhat lower, Officers is somewhat higher for dues.