Forced to pay / belong to a mess [Merged]
- Thread starter KnuckleHead
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aesop081
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Pat in Halifax said:
Every private in the CF has earned his/her way into the JR mess as well. Every officer in the CF has had to earn his/her right to stay in theirs. When i look around the Sgts & WOs mess, i see more than one person who got there by sticking around long enough without "earning" it.
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I assume you meant "bear" with me -- unless your Mess is....different.Pat in Halifax said:
~yawn~
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CDN Aviator said:
Any ship I have been on inter messing has been strictly forbidden. We eat, sleep and work in a confined area, the mess is a refuge from the stresses of work and more importantly from a Jr's perspective their boss.
Yes I have seen how the RCAF works, Jr's calling their bosses by their first names and other familiarities, here's one for you " familiarity breeds contempt". I go out of my way on the ship to stay away from the Jr's mess, especially when I may have to send one of those Jr's into harms way. A Jr upon joining is automatically a mbr of the mess, as a C & PO we get promoted into our mess.
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Contempt, like respect, is earned; sorry to hear about your insecurity.Chief Stoker said:
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aesop081
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Chief Stoker said:
And yet we all followed each other into battle in Libya..............
Chief Stoker said:
That's the key. I don't send people into harm's way. I go with them, leading the way.
News flash, when they join and report to CFLRS, recruits are part of the recruit mess, not the JRC. Only once they have passed BMQ do they become members of a JRC. It is small but they earned it.
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Chief Stoker said:
Chief, when I was BWK and DECKO in the MCDVs I didn't notice a huge difference from where I am now (and then) in the RCAF. Small-ship mentality and aircrew mentality aren't that far apart. Yes, we will call each other by first names in the RCAF sometimes but I've noticed that when not at sea, the MCDV crews do go out together and drink together. I and my housemates had many a house party back in Esquimalt that several crews from OS to LT(N) showed up to (even the occasional LCdr if an NRD is in town.)
One of the reasons (a pretty flimsy one but it's one still) that the RCAF doesn't seem as hierarchical is that rank doesn't equal positional authority in aircraft crews. If I remember correctly (CDN Av you can back me up on this), one of the old COs (LCol) in Comox was a Navigator-Communicator, with a Capt as his Tactical Coordinator and "boss" in the 10 or so hours in the air. Same goes with where I am posted now.
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Dimsum said:
Fair enough and I concede that the crews do mix together while ashore sometimes, however I maintain inter messing on board ship is a no no and eventually will erode good order and discipline.
Your right I think the RCAF is very non hierarchical and I hear that a lot especially from friends who have CT's to air force trades and in a lot of ways its like working in a civy shop compared to what their used to in the Navy. On board ship my position could possibly cause me to send Jr personnel in hazardous situations, I would perfer not to know these personnel on that sort of basis that could cause me or others to hesitate in making those sort of decisions and thus put the ships safety in jeopardy.
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Chief Stoker, I agree with you that aside from special/rare exceptions, such as Christmas "At Home" or other such events and in addition to the valid operational concerns you noted, that as a general rule, the respective messes provide their members with a 'social refuge', and that is just as valid for any rank grouping from any other - Recruit, JR, Sgt & WOs/Chiefs and POs, and Officers alike.
Separate from these messes, as I noted in an earlier post, I believe that there is also a place for group social events, either ad hoc, say on the flight deck during a sailing deployment or in a squadron's hangar during an operational pause, or established as a permanent fixture such as a base or wing or dockyard social centre. It should be understood that attendance, particularly at permanently established all-ranks social facilities, implies no particular 'social refuge' per se, but also that social interaction at such facilities be conducted in a mutually respective and appropriate manner.
Regards
G2G
Separate from these messes, as I noted in an earlier post, I believe that there is also a place for group social events, either ad hoc, say on the flight deck during a sailing deployment or in a squadron's hangar during an operational pause, or established as a permanent fixture such as a base or wing or dockyard social centre. It should be understood that attendance, particularly at permanently established all-ranks social facilities, implies no particular 'social refuge' per se, but also that social interaction at such facilities be conducted in a mutually respective and appropriate manner.
Regards
G2G
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CDN Aviator said:
I find it pretty comical that a recruit passing BMQ equates to a Snr NCO making Sgt or PO in the RCAF. I find it appropriate the Air Force equates a Pte to a Senior Tech.
:sarcasm: I'm sure the Air Force finds both ranks interchangeable. :sarcasm:
I have been AF and know to which I speak.
Cdn Aviator needs to stay where he's posted, obviously, there's ton's of LAC's to do his job, including any Mess jobs he might be assigned.
;D
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Before things get too carried away, there are places like the Curling Club, Bowling Alley or the local Hug & Slug that ORs can mix with Senior Ranks. Hell, go to, and support the Legion!
My Mess is my refuge, if you're not a member (or invited for some rare occasion), stay the fuck out.
My Mess is my refuge, if you're not a member (or invited for some rare occasion), stay the fuck out.
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:goodpost:
Airforce can do what they like, don't really care what they do as long as they don't do it in my mess. If I want to inter mingle with people that are a different rank then me, and have them tell me how much more they know, or if they were incharge how the would run thing, then I just come on here and see whats the latest line.
Airforce can do what they like, don't really care what they do as long as they don't do it in my mess. If I want to inter mingle with people that are a different rank then me, and have them tell me how much more they know, or if they were incharge how the would run thing, then I just come on here and see whats the latest line.
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For clarity, I'm fully on the side of those who don't want riff-raff (ie - others) in my Mess.
My contribution was solely concerning "know your troops and promote their well-being" being a tenuous first step towards "familiarity breeds contempt." :
My contribution was solely concerning "know your troops and promote their well-being" being a tenuous first step towards "familiarity breeds contempt." :
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Pat in Halifax said:
That being said, guess you haven't been to CFS ST.JOHN'S then as both the SNCO and Officers mess has been combined for many years and seems to be working all right.....
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Chief Stoker said:
And yet the level of respect from the junior to senior peers, just isn't there. I have sailed on numerous surface vessels, and since switching over to the RCAF, I have noticed the level of respect among the crews, is much higher, and it was the same on the sub.
I don't know what it is, but it is a completely different work environment, and much more professional.
The RCN has a system in which they think is working, but is it? Sure from the rank of PO2 and up, you get treated pretty damn good, from MS down, you get treated with a lot less respect, the accommodations issue alone is evident of that.
On the Aurora we have to take out the crapper, and pisser when we land, how much do you want to make a bet that if the Navy was running the show, the Ptes would be tasked with that duty at the end of every flight?
I realize that is a small example, but I don't think I am far off in making that statement.
So maybe that's why the all ranks mess works in the RCAF and small units, because the level of respect is higher. Even if you could all drink in the same mess in the Navy, who would want to? From reading on here, all the senior ranks don't want it, and I am willing to bet you won't find a Junior member who supports it either.
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aesop081
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A few years ago, the WCWO "invited" all the Sgts & WOs to the mess one morning for a talk. He went on for about an hour about how lowsy were were for not supporting the mess as it was going under. He berated us repeatedly for going into town on Fridays rather than going to TGIF and was even more irate because people were having their DWDs in town.
When the idea of a combined mess came up, he said "if you want to drink with f*****g Corporals then go in to town !!!!"
Well, yeah. We are.
When the idea of a combined mess came up, he said "if you want to drink with f*****g Corporals then go in to town !!!!"
Well, yeah. We are.
CountDC
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:rofl:
Worked Navy, Army and Air Force and what I have learned is every place has a system that works for them.
For the Navy sitting on a ship I think the seperate mess is the best way. It is the one place where you can get away from each other and bitch about the boss or subordinates. Adding an all ranks mess just isn't possible on a something where real estate is at prime.
Most army bases should have the seperate messes available along with an all ranks mess. Gives the bitch area along with unit cohession areas for all possibilites with out the need to go off base which presents its own problems.
Air Force - isn't that the Civillain branch?? Why a mess??(couldn't resist). The all ranks mess is the best for them but I like to have a seperate mess or section for those of us that are not aircrew and want to have a drink and bitch session without the boss or subordinate there.
In the end it is a matter of what works for the location and people there.
Worked Navy, Army and Air Force and what I have learned is every place has a system that works for them.
For the Navy sitting on a ship I think the seperate mess is the best way. It is the one place where you can get away from each other and bitch about the boss or subordinates. Adding an all ranks mess just isn't possible on a something where real estate is at prime.
Most army bases should have the seperate messes available along with an all ranks mess. Gives the bitch area along with unit cohession areas for all possibilites with out the need to go off base which presents its own problems.
Air Force - isn't that the Civillain branch?? Why a mess??(couldn't resist). The all ranks mess is the best for them but I like to have a seperate mess or section for those of us that are not aircrew and want to have a drink and bitch session without the boss or subordinate there.
In the end it is a matter of what works for the location and people there.
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