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Forced to pay / belong to a mess [Merged]

OldSolduer

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Thucydides said:
Sadly, this practice was forcibly ended once the various messes noticed their bar receipts were declining...

And how was/is this legal?
 

X Royal

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Jim Seggie said:
And how was/is this legal?
My guess is they were going in uniform. I can't see many bringing a change of clothing for after the training night.
If off duty and wearing civilian clothing not much could be done to reservists.
 

bcbarman

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Speaking of combined Officer/Sr NCO messes there is a inherent problem in that the numbers of both messes are small compared to that of the Jr's. (at least in the reserves, larger bases probably do better)

I do have an issue with combined messes but I strongly support a combined Bar.  If laid out correctly, you can have a wraparound bar that serves both messes, lowering costs while still separating the two messes.  One bartender, one fridge and one stock, separate rooms, and you divide the profits down the middle (even though the Sgt mess will be drinking 3-4 times more)

If you want to drink with the troops, bring a case of beer to a neutral location or go to a pub.
 
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aesop081

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bcbarman said:
If you want to drink with the troops, bring a case of beer to a neutral location or go to a pub.

Which is what happens at some bases, hence why the messes there are dying. It's always nice getting b****ed at by the base Chief for not supporting the mess though.
 

beach_bum

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I understand why a combined mess doesn't work everywhere, but it does here.  I have friends of all ranks and enjoy being able to have a drink in the mess with them. We have never had a problem here.
 

Pat in Halifax

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NFLD Sapper said:
That being said, guess you haven't been to CFS ST.JOHN'S then as both the SNCO and Officers mess has been combined for many years and seems to be working all right.....

We are talking designated and NOT mixed Messes here. I too have been posted to places where the Mess itself is a combined Mess with little or no issues. I am talking about specific Jnr rates, Snr rates and Officer's Messes.
 

a_majoor

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Jim Seggie said:
And how was/is this legal?

Combination of most people did not bother to change clothes and the usual berating people for not supporting the mess ("why our profits are down "x"% because you aren't supporting the mess"; as if someone else's profit margin is our concern).

The manager of Kelsey's does not demand your custom (nor can he order you to spend money in his establishment), he invites it by offering something that his/her customers desire at the price they are willing to pay. Something struggling messes might give a little thought to.
 

Eye In The Sky

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PuckChaser said:
That's the military factor in your pay. Much like being ordered to attend and pay for a mess dinner.

That is actually not correct; you can be ordered to attend a mess dinner, but not to pay for it.  You could sit there like an idiot while every eats and has a great time around you, but you can't be ordered to pay.  (However, I don't know anyone who has ever done that and I hope I never meet someone who is 'that kind' of person  :nod:)

I'm sure officers get enough money, they can cover the mess kit cost. I did it as a MCpl with 2 kids and a car payment, its not that expensive.

But, that isn't the issue, whether they can afford it.  It is the validity in making it a requirement to have, and expecting the member to pay out of pocket for it.  For you (and I) it was optional and we both did it, but that was our choice. 

What could the CAF do, reasonably, to someone who said "no, I will not spend $1700 of my own money on a uniform".  It is lawful to order someone to pay $1700 of their own money on something required for use by the military?  Because if the military told me "you are going on this trip but you have to pay for your hotels yourself"...I wouldn't be going on that trip.  Why is a mess kit any different?  If it is truly a requirement, why it is not provided by the Crown?

 

Eaglelord17

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Eye In The Sky said:
That is actually not correct; you can be ordered to attend a mess dinner, but not to pay for it.  You could sit there like an idiot while every eats and has a great time around you, but you can't be ordered to pay.  (However, I don't know anyone who has ever done that and I hope I never meet someone who is 'that kind' of person  :nod:)

But, that isn't the issue, whether they can afford it.  It is the validity in making it a requirement to have, and expecting the member to pay out of pocket for it.  For you (and I) it was optional and we both did it, but that was our choice. 

What could the CAF do, reasonably, to someone who said "no, I will not spend $1700 of my own money on a uniform".  It is lawful to order someone to pay $1700 of their own money on something required for use by the military?  Because if the military told me "you are going on this trip but you have to pay for your hotels yourself"...I wouldn't be going on that trip.  Why is a mess kit any different?  If it is truly a requirement, why it is not provided by the Crown?

You could also make the same argument about Mess Dues. Why should members be forced to pay Mess Dues when it is a requirement to be a part of a Mess?
 
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jollyjacktar

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Hamish Seggie said:
Which will probably be denied despite any regulation that says it can’t be denied.

It hasn't to date.  I've never attended a mess dinner and plan to keep it that way.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Eaglelord17 said:
You could also make the same argument about Mess Dues. Why should members be forced to pay Mess Dues when it is a requirement to be a part of a Mess?

The counter-argument might be different;  if people stop buying mess kits, Andrea's will feel it.  If people stop paying mess dues, entire Mess's would close in short order (IMO). 

Mess membership (which comes with dues) are a requirement for ALL CAF mbr's, though.  Mess kits only apply to the smaller % in sheer numbers;  Reg Force Commissioned Officers.
 

Eaglelord17

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Eye In The Sky said:
The counter-argument might be different;  if people stop buying mess kits, Andrea's will feel it.  If people stop paying mess dues, entire Mess's would close in short order (IMO). 

Mess membership (which comes with dues) are a requirement for ALL CAF mbr's, though.  Mess kits only apply to the smaller % in sheer numbers;  Reg Force Commissioned Officers.

Still it is essentially theft from the members, you force them to belong to a organisation that they may not wish to belong to, and then force them to pay to be a part of it. If it is a requirement for service it should be paid for just like all other things that are required for service (be it service arms, uniforms, food, etc.). On top of that different messes have different pricing dependant on the specific mess, so you could argue a increased hardship depending on location which is something you are also unable to control.
 
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jollyjacktar

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If members, given a choice, opted out of mess membership in such numbers that operations had to cease, would it be such a bad thing?  In this scenario, it would suggest it wasn't an institution that was on the whole, required by the majority of members. 

Maybe that is what should be the normal evolution in military social activities?
 
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jollyjacktar

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But one that I'll take nevertheless.  I'll leave mess dinners to those of you that wish to participate.
 

Scoobie Newbie

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jollyjacktar said:
But one that I'll take nevertheless.  I'll leave mess dinners to those of you that wish to participate.
Some of us don’t like the repricusions. Something about it being a parade therefore mandatory.
 
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