Cormorant Down-July 13/ 2006

[Dirt Digger]

It could have been a breeching whale headbutting the aircraft.

I have a degree in Biology and have have eaten fish on numerous occasions.  I'm sure some media outlet would see those credentials as newsworthy.

Leave crash investigation to the crash investigators.  Leave speculation to Brian Daily on Usenet.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Hey, here's a radical idea...

If a reporter wants to write about aircraft accident investigations, there's a little something called "homework".  Heck, flying planes or investigating crashes are both outside my lane, but finding public information is.  Here's a public document to start with:

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/dfs/pdf/AGA135_dec02_e.pdf

True, it won't elicit a sexy headline, but who knows?  Some relevant information without speculation might sneak out there.

Too young to be so bitter?  ;D

 

[Trinity]

Ultimately..

You are all wrong

God must have willed the air craft to crash, simply because it happened. 


Actually, my favourite theory so far is the whale headbutting it!

 

[GAP]

Wouldn't that just get PETA after us for disguising ourselves as "Whale Targets" and injuring the poor whale population through malice of forethought?

 

[navymich]

Wouldn't that just get PETA after us for disguising ourselves as "Whale Targets" and injuring the poor whale population through malice of forethought?

No, we're good with them for a bit.  We're naming the new ships ORCAs so they're happy with the military....for now. 

 

[GAP]

Did they finally develop a whale harness that withstands salt water?

Oh, you mean real human, metal ships named after those thingys in the water!!  :

 

[Jarnhamar]

I like this line.

Quite obviously, looking at the wreckage, I am certain that they must have flown into the sea

Compared to flying into land?  I think the fact that helicopter crashed into the sea was never in question..

 

[medicineman]

If you don't know waht to say - don't say it.  But of course journalists wouldn't understand that would they?

So, to throw in my 2 bits, I've flown in them, got in and out of them, had people try to make me throw up in them.  I can't say much else other than my guess is that little factor of 9.8m/sec2 took over for some odd reason.  Of course, I'm not a crash investigator and failed physics in high school, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night...

MM

 

[boots]

Goodbye, and rest in peace. My condolences to the families and friends, and a quick recovery to the injured. SAR Techs are amazing people.

 

[xmarcx]

Metro ran the story on the front page on Friday, and made three very specific allusions to it being caused by a tail rotor failure.

#1. "Hughes refused to speculate on a potential cause of the crash, or whether persistant structural problems with the aircraft's tail rotor played any part in the accident."

#2. "Because of concerns about potential cracking in the hub of the tail rotors, Cormorant training excercises were limited to three hours."

#3. "The Cormorant fleet was grounded two years ago after a Royal Navy equivalent was involved in a crash caused by a tail rotor brake failure."

Apparently they've already solved the crash, especially impressive since the large photo accompanying the piece clearly shows that the tail rotor is about the only piece of the aircraft still intact.

 

[Zoomie]

In light of further email traffic, I must humbly retract my defaming statement against Mr. Jago.  It appears that Lambie took everything he said out of context.  (Surpise Surprise)

Apparently Lambie interviewed Jago while he was stuck in California traffic (over his cellphone).

Mr. Jago has stated that he would be following up with Mr. Lambie in an attempt to correct his outlandish article.

 

[big bad john]

Any word on the services for the men involved?

 

[military granny]

From 14 Wing site


14 WING GREENWOOD - The 413 (T&R) Sqn Crew Memorial Service for Sgt Duane Brazil, Master Cpl Kirk Noel and Cpl Trevor McDavid will be held on Tuesday 18 July 2006 at 2 P.M. in Hangar 14, 14 Wing Greenwood. The three Search and Rescue team members perished in last Thursday's Cormorant crash while conducting a training mission.

The Service will be open to the public and the media. All spectators and media are to be in place no later than 1:30 P.M.

 

[gaspasser]

My brother was good friends with Trevor and his wife Giselle, I only met Trevor and his family twice.  Trevor leaves behind two young girls and a new one on the way.  I've asked my brother (who will see the family tommorrow when he drives the bus)  to pass on many condolences from myself, my family and this site.
  "That Others May Live"

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

From 14 Wing site


14 WING GREENWOOD - The 413 (T&R) Sqn Crew Memorial Service for Sgt Duane Brazil, Master Cpl Kirk Noel and Cpl Trevor McDavid will be held on Tuesday 18 July 2006 at 2 P.M. in Hangar 14, 14 Wing Greenwood. The three Search and Rescue team members perished in last Thursday's Cormorant crash while conducting a training mission.

The Service will be open to the public and the media. All spectators and media are to be in place no later than 1:30 P.M.

What an unfortunate way to discribe people attending a memorial service..."spectators. "
what ever happened to "congregation" or "those attending?"
RIP brave souls.

 

[beenthere]

I would take that as is states "spectators and media" in a paragraph of it's own and that they be in place at 1330 for a service that starts at 1400 they are referring to "spectators and media" as opposed to others.

 

[aluc]

http://www.torontosun.ca/News/Canada/2006/07/20/1693587-sun.html



Thu, July 20, 2006
Chopper worked OK

By SUN WIRE SERVICES



HALIFAX -- Investigators have ruled out mechanical problems as the cause of a helicopter crash that killed three airmen and are now looking at other potential causes, such as human error and environmental factors, an air force spokesman said.

The crash occurred last Thursday during a nighttime training exercise off eastern Nova Scotia.

 

[Loachman]

#3. "The Cormorant fleet was grounded two years ago after a Royal Navy equivalent was involved in a crash caused by a tail rotor brake failure."

Although there could, I suppose, be a helicopter somewhere on this planet or another that has a tail rotor brake I do not know of one, or why one would have such.

It was the Merlin's MAIN rotor brake that was implicated in the crash.

As many have noted on this thread and others, idle speculation is futile at best. Many of the accidents near and dear to me turned out to have causes very, very different from initial speculation.

The investigation may take months - two Kiowa crash investigations that I am particularly familiar with took about nine months each - because they are exceedingly thorough.

And while I have had reason to dispute very minor aspects of some findings in some crash investigations in the past I have never had reason to doubt either the quality of any investigation or the integrity, professionalism, and dedication of any Directorate of Flight Safety investigators.

They have all either flown or fixed aircraft for years and will usually go back to that so they have a vested interest in getting it right.

For now, the head-butting theory is as valid as any other.

 

[Strike]

Loach,

I suspect that the presence of a CVR/FDR will help speed up the process somewhat.

Here's hoping (and praying) for a quick recovery of the rest of the guys.

As for Mr Lambie, I noticed that the Halifax rag has yet to publish any of those wonderful comments about him from our brethren.

 

[Scoobs]

Having been the Wing Flight Safety Officer (WFSO) for a short time, I was amazed at the speed the investigation team said that no mechanical failure caused the crash.  I seriously doubt, as a person who has both the Basic Flight Safety Course and Advanced Course, an aerospace eng degree, etc., that mech failure can be ruled out so quickly.  All modern helos have a FDR or CVR or a combo, such as in the Griffon.  Also, not knowing what the Cormorant has in it exactly, another system that could be useful is the Health Usage Monitoring System (HUMS) or whatever it may be called in the Cormorant (assuming it has one).  The HUMS was very useful in the Griffon crash in Goose Bay where the two pilots passed away (RIP my friends). 
Having survivors, especially the pilots, will provide a wealth of info to DFS (Directorate of Flight Safety), who is responsible for investigating mil aircraft crashes.  By the way, I personally know one of the pilots on board (I'm not sure if he was flying as there were 3 onboard), and I can say without a doubt that he is a very experienced pilot.  He was relatively new on the Cormorant, but I would have flown with him anytime while I was at 427 Sqn.
Another point, a tail rotor assembly should not have to be replaced every 100 hrs.  This is extremely costly in terms of manhours, aircraft downtime, aircraft availability, etc.  If this is true that the Cormorant has to have its tail rotor assembly replaced every 100 hrs, then Augusta-Westland (AW) should be taken out back and taught a lesson on aircraft design.  Last year, some tail rotors had to be replaced after only two hours, and Augusta-Westland personnel didn't even get past the CAS while briefing him on the status of the solution to the tail rotor problem.  The 1 Cdn Air Div Commander was expecting the AW team, but didn't obviously get to meet them.  This came straight from the General to our FS course.  I hope that Augusta-Westland did make changes, as has been detailed in some news reports.

We all need to give DFS time to do a proper investigation.  Patience is a true virtue here and we may not know the cause (cause factor for us FS folks) for a year.  The thing about FS is that there are always other factors that led up to the crash and DFS will look at all of this so that we can do the aim of FS:

"To prevent the accidental loss of aviation resources".

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of our downed airmen.