Combat Support Company?

[McG]

That is particularly true when one considers that we are augmenting BGs with TUAV flights and surveillance squadrons overseas.

 

[Journeyman]

I suspect that pretty soon many infantry folks will understand the maxim, "be careful what you wish for."
The op tempo is going to force some changes, many of which may not be.....uh, wise. Imagine if you will, all 9 Bns having two mech coy and one light (there was even talk about penny-packeting out CSOR so that each Bn would have a "Special Ops Platoon" but that's too stupid to even contemplate). Imagine some MOCs being told they are now "infantry-like" (perhaps Armd Recce employed as Mech Inf)....

The Int cell could be co located with the Recce Pl to process stuff faster as well. I think Recce and perhaps the snipers would be better located with HQ Coy, so the commander can have these assets at his finger tips, so to speak.

For operational purposes, think of OC Recce as administering Recce/Snipers, but have no doubt that the CO has them at his fingertips! (OC Recce does more than that, but it helps clarify thinking).

As for sniper employment, on one Kosovo roto, the snipers belonged within the Int Sect, with the IO having direct tasking (and care, cleaning, and feeding) authority/responsibility. I suspect that was a one-off based on personalities and the IO's background. Of course, that security environment also called for more "eyes on" tasks and less "trigger time."

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

VonGarvin,

By "zero-sum" I mean that manning numbers (both for the institutional army and deployed forces) are finite.  The infantry did indeed have mortar platoons until 2002/03, but those cuts were made in part to counter the hollow-battalion phenomenon.  We have the mortars in theatre, but to crew them means that something else will not get done.

If it is indeed zero-sum in terms of manning, what platoon or capability should get cut?  A rifle platoon?  Recce platoon?  Perhaps its not zero-sum, but if the answer is to cut the M777 to get mortars than I'm not in favour of it (not that anyone is saying that).

Please believe me that I'm a big supporter of mortars at both platoon and company level and have written reports to that effect.  I'd like to see indirect fire assets at company level to allow the M777 to be focused on the main effort.

 

[HItorMiss]

Recce PL fall's under OC Combat Support Coy, however this is just for Admin purposes only, while deployed Recce is the BG asset and is moved around at the whim of the BG CO or even higher then him, Snipers as well fall under this arrangement. It's an admmintstarive move only for ease not for operations. This arrangement works just fine

 

[vonGarvin]

2Bravo
Seen.  Problem with the manning (to man bayonets at the expense of 81mm of RDX raining from the sky is beyond me, but...) those "hollow battalions" are just as hollow as they were with the support platoons.  With no option but to remain with the boneheads, more and more soldiers are OT'ing than before (as far as I can tell).

 

[paracowboy]

Recce PL fall's under OC Combat Support Coy, however this is just for Admin purposes only, while deployed Recce is the BG asset and is moved around at the whim of the BG CO or even higher then him, Snipers as well fall under this arrangement. It's an admmintstarive move only for ease not for operations. This arrangement works just fine

yup.

Seen.  Problem with the manning (to man bayonets at the expense of 81mm of RDX raining from the sky is beyond me, but...) those "hollow battalions" are just as hollow as they were with the support platoons.  With no option but to remain with the boneheads, more and more soldiers are OT'ing than before (as far as I can tell).

yup

 

[COBRA-6]

Methinks Pioneers will be back sooner rather than later...

The voices in my head tell me the same thing 

I want to grow the beard  ;D

 

[Gunnerlove]

There are enough mortars for everyone. Arty should have mortars as should the infantry. Hell they are just a pipe with a nail in it. This should not be us trying to take something away from each other, but us trying to get what we need to do our jobs.

 

[vonGarvin]

There are enough mortars for everyone. Arty should have mortars as should the infantry. Hell they are just a pipe with a nail in it. This should not be us trying to take something away from each other, but us trying to get what we need to do our jobs.

This isn't about pipes with nails in them, or boards with nails in them.  It's not about tools.  It's about structure and form.
There may be enough tools; however, there are only so many toolmen.  The arty (the structured units, not the guns) are the masters when it comes to dropping 'stuff' from the sky, flying UAVs and much more.  Having mortars in an infantry battalion allows the gunners to do their job without having to worry about the 5km (or so) targets. 
The best "synergy" I remember with gunners and doughnut eaters (read: mortar men) in a battle group or combat team together is the FOO and MFC combination.  And the FSCC running things for the artillery battery commander.  And so on and so forth.

To sum up, it seems as though we are trying to find a form or structure for the TF when deployed, and it seems as though the more we modify the "Advance with Purpose, lead with sensors, overmatch with long range precision effects and exploit with infantry" model to one that actually works, the more we seem to be adapting to a model that was proven in battle and modified due to emerging technologies.  In other words, a TF (or battle group) of four rifle companies, augmented by a squadron of tanks, a squadron of combat engineers and a battery of guns, and supported integrally by platoons of close recce patrolmen, snipers, pioneers, and dare I say it,  of TOW and Mortars.  The only real difference is the pushing down from Brigade level asset to Battle group asset of the Recce Squadron.

 

[paracowboy]

To sum up, it seems as though we are trying to find a form or structure for the TF when deployed, and it seems as though the more we modify the "Advance with Purpose, lead with sensors, overmatch with long range precision effects and exploit with infantry" model to one that actually works, the more we seem to be adapting to a model that was proven in battle and modified due to emerging technologies.  In other words, a TF (or battle group) of four rifle companies, augmented by a squadron of tanks, a squadron of combat engineers and a battery of guns, and supported integrally by platoons of close recce patrolmen, snipers, pioneers, and dare I say it,  of TOW and Mortars.  The only real difference is the pushing down from Brigade level asset to Battle group asset of the Recce Squadron.

now, you're just talking crazy! We do that, and how does everyone get their tick in the box for PDRs, and hang on to their mini-empires?

 

[Kat Stevens]

I really hope you guys do get the pioneers back, because they're fun to watch, just like when you hire the handicapped.

 

[vonGarvin]

Pioneers: a mix of "Jackass" and "Special Olympics" then?  LOL

 

[Kat Stevens]

Yeah, only with blasting caps.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Let's remember - Engineers are just Pioneer wannabees....

Dave

Former Pnr Pl Comd

 

[Kat Stevens]

No, no, no... it goes; "Pioneers are just engineer couldnbees"  >

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Engineers lack the imagination to do it without calculations - Pioneers just make it bigger.... ;D

 

[McG]

I've asked the question before, but I'm interested to see if the answer has changed.  Which would people rather see return first: the "old style" Cbt Sp Coy or the 4th Rifle Coy?

 

[vonGarvin]

Cbt Spt Coy, hands down. 

IF you are in a place where mortars, TOW missiles and our friends the Dirty necks aren't needed (Cyprus, for example), you have some 200 trained riflemen you can re-roll (they are all infantrymen, remember)

A fourth rifle coy cannot "up arm" to mortars, pioneers, etc. if that is needed

 

[paracowboy]

Cbt Spt Coy, hands down. 

abso-fuckin'-utely!

 

[McG]

While rolling over one of the Pls may be easy (how do numbers in AAPl compare to a Rifle Pl), it may not be as easy to re-task the Coy HQ, but . . .

IF you are in a place where mortars, TOW missiles and our friends the Dirty necks aren't needed (Cyprus, for example), you have some 200 trained riflemen you can re-roll (they are all infantrymen, remember)

A fourth rifle coy cannot "up arm" to mortars, pioneers, etc. if that is needed

Given current ops, would your Cbt Sp Coy spend more time acting as a Rifle Coy or doing the Cbt Sp "thing"?