CF Pay Raise 2009/2010

[dapaterson]

Given the CF's notorious tail-to-tooth ratio, some of the pay and benefits need to be re-examined, and moved from "everyone gets it" to "those actually doing it get it".  With over 10% of the Reg F trained effective strength in the NCR, things are out of whack.

 

[begbie]

Since I joined the PS, I have been under PSAC and PIPSC, and both have had renegotiated C.A.'s which led to increased brackets. Haven't you?

I am a member of CAPE and I misunderstood your comment. 

I used to work in an environment where some of us were classified as economists and others as scientists.  The economists were getting the standard 2.5%.  What I consider to be a cost of living raise.  The scientists were getting their 2.5% cost of living raise and getting another 'pay' raise on top of that for various reasons for which I can't recall.  It's that additional pay raise which is what I thought you were referring to.

 

[begbie]

Well... that is also what I received. And it is to cope with inflation. And it is sufficient, I think, in the current economic context.

Agreed.  Never underestimate the effects of compound growth (interest).  Just ask the guys who are buying back reserve time for their pension.

It's the most powerful force on earth.

 

[BinRat55]

Hmmm... a little bit of reading (and a lot of squinting) through the Minister's Message (found at Reports on Plans and Priorities) you find a financial report that has funds set aside for a CF pay raise for 08/09 ($90M) and $180.4M for 09/10. I take that as an acknowledgement? Daddy needs a new pair of socks!!!

 

[CountDC]

Given the CF's notorious tail-to-tooth ratio, some of the pay and benefits need to be re-examined, and moved from "everyone gets it" to "those actually doing it get it".  With over 10% of the Reg F trained effective strength in the NCR, things are out of whack.

hmmm seems you are saying those of us that DND decided to post to NCR should not have the same benefit as those that are posted to such wonderful places as Halifax, Toronto, Vancouver, etc.

 

[dapaterson]

I'm saying that an office job is different from a sea job, and the compensation and benefits should be adjusted in consequence.  I'm suggesting that compensation for moves and upheaval should probably be weighted more heavily to those who get postings every 2 years or so, and those who spend a decade or more in one location should get less over time.  I'm suggesting that rather than spreading bilingualism pay over all CF members, only those with a valid profile should get it.

In short, I'm suggesting a much more tailored compensation system where the Maj with 20+ years in the NCR would see less benefits, and the PO2 who's bounced from coast to coast with stops in St Jean in between would see a richer package.


Of course, since it's the 20+ year Majors in Ottawa who drive these decisions, so it's not very likely to happen...

 

[CountDC]

I'm saying that an office job is different from a sea job, and the compensation and benefits should be adjusted in consequence.  I'm suggesting that compensation for moves and upheaval should probably be weighted more heavily to those who get postings every 2 years or so, and those who spend a decade or more in one location should get less over time.  I'm suggesting that rather than spreading bilingualism pay over all CF members, only those with a valid profile should get it.

In short, I'm suggesting a much more tailored compensation system where the Maj with 20+ years in the NCR would see less benefits, and the PO2 who's bounced from coast to coast with stops in St Jean in between would see a richer package.


Of course, since it's the 20+ year Majors in Ottawa who drive these decisions, so it's not very likely to happen...

ouch - talk about one big can of warms

office job to sea job - guess that would be why I received Sea Pay while on the ship.

More pay for bilingual profile - see everyone running. Profile already gives an advantage on promotion boards and then add a higher pay level.  What is the use of the profile if you are never posted to a unit that needs it?  Guess you would have to make it if you are french, have an english profile and are posted to an english unit (or vice versus) then you get paid more - of course you have to allow for the different profile levels.

Got to say as a clerk - I sure don't want to see any of this.  We have our pay levels, enviro allowances, cost move claims and allowances that all together create a pretty good package. To start and admin a plan of johnny got moved 5 times while harry stayed local so lets give Johnny more pay is a night mare.  Mind you for the most part it will be support trades such as us clerks that will benefit - most hard sea and combat arms do not move around a lot.  I know of sailors that spent their entire career in Halifax bouncing from ship to ship and occassional land billets while some clerks have gone from office to office in different cities every 2 years.

Majors in Ottawa drive decisions?  I thought they were coffee boys.

Basically I would have to disagree with you on this one - there are simply way too many conflicts and admin headaches involved.

 

[PMedMoe]

More pay for bilingual profile - see everyone running. Profile already gives an advantage on promotion boards and then add a higher pay level.  What is the use of the profile if you are never posted to a unit that needs it?  Guess you would have to make it if you are french, have an english profile and are posted to an english unit (or vice versus) then you get paid more - of course you have to allow for the different profile levels.

Not to mention, trying to get on a French course for years, only to be told you don't need it and then getting posted to Ottawa.  :

Also, and this is only my opinion, it seems easier for a Francophone to be considered bilingual than for an Anglophone.

 

[TimBit]

Also, and this is only my opinion, it seems easier for a Francophone to be considered bilingual than for an Anglophone.

As far as testing goes, I would say it depends on a lot of factors, i.e. where you do it (heard Ottawa was easier), who you do it with (a friend of mine, who is clearly not as good as me, got a better grade... go figure), whether you're just out of training, bla bla bla...

As far as actually being bilingual, well stats seem to show that more francos are bilingual than anglos... I guess for most francos who want to explore the world a bit, English is not optional.

Anyway good luck on getting your course, I do understand the frustration for people posted here or in bilingual areas.

 

[dapaterson]

Done well, compensation systems can be relatively simple and reward behaviours we want, and give people options.

In the mid 90s there was a proposal to delink rank and pay to some extent - as your breadth of skills grew, the theory went, you became more valuable to the system - so it would be possible for a Cpl infnatryman with, say, advanced pioneer and advanced mortar skills to be paid more than a new Sgt.

However, since there was no new funding available, Trade Advancement through Skill and Knowledge (TASK) died - there would have been winners and losers, and no one wanted to make such a decision.


Admittedly, some support trades may well come out better off in the system I propose.  So?  If you're having more disruption to your life than an NCIOp who is posted to the left coast for a decade, shouldn't that be recognized in a more rewarding manner than just your MPRR?

Complexity can be managed through well-designed systems.  Many civ employers use elaborate compensation schemes - the time to make changes is now, as we prepare to retire the twin dinosaurs of CCPS and RPSR.

 

[CountDC]

I also remember that talk in the 90s and a factor that helped kill it was a Cpl making more than a Sgt that was their boss. If someone could make more as a Cpl than a Sgt then where is the incentive to advance?  I'll stay a cpl, do courses and make more money without taking on the responsibilities. Use to see this a lot in the reserves where the guys didn't want to get promoted as there were more employment opps as a Cpl. Then there is the question of where is the value achieved if the person has the skill but does not use the skill?
You now have a cpl for life that is restricted to pioneers as a mortarman in order to maintain his pay level. I can imagine all the ROGs that would generate.  I'll stick with the pay by rank system - wan't more money - work hard, get promoted.

Those that are posted do receive compensation in the form of posting allowances thus if you are posted more then you receive more. I received a months pay to move to Ottawa plus all my expenses were covered. Just wish they did not go to the current system as in the "old" days I knew people that would make over $10k on a move. Guess that is one reason they did change the system.  Still a months pay sounds like good compensation for something I knew would happen when I signed on the magic line. In fact the moves was one of the reasons I made the jump from pres to regs.  Really don't see the need for additional compensation for the more moves.  Would like to see better rules in place for allowable expenses from core funding plus the new rules this year are out to lunch for people that are home owners (discussed in another thread).

Overall I think our current pay and compensation system is good and only needs some minor tweaks vice a complete overhaul.

As for the last - "Complexity can be managed through well-designed systems..." you do remember you are talking about DND and Government? 

 

[dapaterson]

As for the last - "Complexity can be managed through well-designed systems..." you do remember you are talking about DND and Government?

Note the use of the words well-designed - I can dream, can't I?

Alternatively, we can develop complex, unmanagable systems, but everyone involved will get "leading change" points on their PERs.

 

[CountDC]

now that is the military way!!

Sometimes it seems it would be nice to go back to the old and simple pay system. Adding machines front and centre, pay book to side, writing stick at the ready.  Pay problem?  No problem, come and see me and we will figure it out and give you your money.

 

[RetiredRoyal]

i hear management is taking a rollback on salary and we're being ordered to unionize and restructure.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

i hear management is taking a rollback on salary and we're being ordered to unionize and restructure.

Come again?  Source?  Links?  The CF will be unionized??

 

[spike2222]

Actually the pay raise last year for the forces was 2% IAW the CANFORGEN I had seen. Also why the cripes has the military pay raise always been tied to the civil servants? Where did the military component of the pay raise go(the reason military memebers get more pay ie putting life ones life on the line, eating lousy food, operating and living in lousy conditons) The US military pay raise certainly is not done this way and militay members just suck it up and take whatever crumbs they can get. Who made the public service the guide for military pay raises in Canada? Why not adopt something  like the US National Defense Authorization Act in which congress actually passes the annual pay and benefits. This year it was 3.9% http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:S.3001. Why does the Canadian military not have proper representation fighting for their men and women and why is there always a delay it seems. It used to be raises were every April???

 

[Michael OLeary]

Actually the pay raise last year for the forces was 2% IAW the CANFORGEN I had seen. Also why the cripes has the military pay raise always been tied to the civil servants? Where did the military component of the pay raise go(the reason military memebers get more pay ie putting life ones life on the line, eating lousy food, operating and living in lousy conditons) The US military pay raise certainly is not done this way and militay members just suck it up and take whatever crumbs they can get. Who made the public service the guide for military pay raises in Canada? Why not adopt something  like the US National Defense Authorization Act in which congress actually passes the annual pay and benefits. This year it was 3.9% http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:S.3001. Why does the Canadian military not have proper representation fighting for their men and women and why is there always a delay it seems. It used to be raises were every April???

You must be new.

Military pay has not always been tied to the civil service.
The military component is in there, the scales are related, but we're not paid on the civil service scale.
Every April? Ever hear of the years of no pay raises, not even IPC increases.

Try doing some research before running off in a rant.

 

[Lil_T]

Actually the pay raise last year for the forces was 2% IAW the CANFORGEN I had seen. Also why the cripes has the military pay raise always been tied to the civil servants? Where did the military component of the pay raise go(the reason military memebers get more pay ie putting life ones life on the line, eating lousy food, operating and living in lousy conditons) The US military pay raise certainly is not done this way and militay members just suck it up and take whatever crumbs they can get. Who made the public service the guide for military pay raises in Canada? Why not adopt something  like the US National Defense Authorization Act in which congress actually passes the annual pay and benefits. This year it was 3.9% http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:S.3001. Why does the Canadian military not have proper representation fighting for their men and women and why is there always a delay it seems. It used to be raises were every April???

You of course realize that CF members are paid a fair bit more than our American counterparts?

http://www.dfas.mil/militarypay/militarypaytables.html

Officer Pay  http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfor-ofr-eng.asp

NCM pay  http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfncmr-mrfr-eng.asp

 

[CountDC]

You must be new.

Military pay has not always been tied to the civil service.
The military component is in there, the scales are related, but we're not paid on the civil service scale.
Every April? Ever hear of the years of no pay raises, not even IPC increases.

Try doing some research before running off in a rant.

curse you for bringing up the dark ages!!

The pay raises (when given) in the last 24 years have been more tied to Nov/Dec time frame back dated to Apr than actually given in Apr.  I think it is planned to give everyone that nice bit of back pay just in time for christmas holidays.

 

[dapaterson]

curse you for bringing up the dark ages!!

The pay raises (when given) in the last 24 years have been more tied to Nov/Dec time frame back dated to Apr than actually given in Apr.  I think it is planned to give everyone that nice bit of back pay just in time for christmas holidays.

Planned?  Not really.  More of the ability of DND/CF to assemble required documentation, negotiate with staff in the Treasury Board Secretariat, get a slot before Treasury Board, get TB approval, then announce.  Remember, over the summer much of gov't slows down to a crawl because TB rarely sits - so if it's not approved by 31 May you're probably looking at 30 Sept in a best-case scenario.