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Canada's New, Liberal, Defence Policy

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Edward Campbell

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MCG said:
You don't command machines, you operate them.
Operating machines is done by NCMs and in some cases supervised by junior officers, either individually or in teams.
Majors are not required where there are not people to command.


I agree, wholeheartedly, with both assertions.

Even the most complex and lethal machinery is the business of the NCOs. Officers, junior officers, ought to learn how to operate the machines, but only so that they can properly supervise and manage their deployment and use.

Most captains and all majors and above ought to be involved in leading and managing the processes through which the NCOs and their deadly machines serve the country's interests.
 

Old Sweat

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dapaterson said:
If, for the sake of argument, we assume Majors command groups of 100 personnel, and only one in three majors is so employed (with the remainder working in staff organizations), then the number of majors required is approximately 2000 - or about half the current tally.

If I can return to the majors, in my opinion a contributing factor is the increase in CRA. Harkening back to the 282 infantry majors listed in the 1965 officers list, at that time CRA for majors was 49. In the mid-70s it was raised to 55 and then raised again to 60 in the mid-90s. Given the minimum culling of the herd in the CAF, the extra PYs have to be employed somewhere.

I know at least one GO had anticipated this and used to rant about how the majors (depending upon his mood he used to qualify them with various uncomplimentary adjectives) had hoodwinked the senior management into giving them six more years of pensionable service.
 

Remius

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Let's also not forget that we have professional groups like JAG, TDOs, etc that are not necessarily leading anyone (or very few) but due to their professional status are at that Rank. 
 

Stoker

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Looks like the CAF been given their marching orders


Canadian Forces to draft plan to help resettle Syrian refugees

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadian-forces-to-draft-plan-to-help-resettle-syrian-refugees/article27041233/
 

Old Sweat

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Chief Stoker said:
Looks like the CAF been given their marching orders


Canadian Forces to draft plan to help resettle Syrian refugees

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadian-forces-to-draft-plan-to-help-resettle-syrian-refugees/article27041233/

Having served in J3 Plans and J3 Ops in the old DCDS shop, I would be very surprised if a plan with various contingencies had not been in the works for several weeks, if not months.
 

Kirkhill

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E.R. Campbell said:
I agree, wholeheartedly, with both assertions.

Even the most complex and lethal machinery is the business of the NCOs. Officers, junior officers, ought to learn how to operate the machines, but only so that they can properly supervise and manage their deployment and use.

Most captains and all majors and above ought to be involved in leading and managing the processes through which the NCOs and their deadly machines serve the country's interests.

So...

Do we go back to Captains are leaders of men and Lieutenants and Sergeants are there to assist them?

Captains then command Operators and Corporals, capable of pushing many buttons and operating many machines. (Corporals flying aircraft and operating GBAD Troops and individual tanks?)

With Captains being commanded by a Captain-General?

How many Lieutenants does the Captain-General need? Servants-Major-General?, Leaders of Brigades, Leaders of Columns?

How many Lieutenants do the Column Leaders need? Servants Major? 

How many Servants do the Officers need?

Being a pig about this because the whole rank structure is based on tradition and addresses a problem that was defined thousands of years ago.

In the modern industrial world, arguably spear-headed by the Ordnance Department, both ashore and afloat,  armies don't look like Moses's mob.  That bunch is just one part of the Army (to include Aerial and Floating members - most of which are gunners and their servants).
 

Lumber

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E.R. Campbell said:
Even the most complex and lethal machinery is the business of the NCOs. Officers, junior officers, ought to learn how to operate the machines, but only so that they can properly supervise and manage their deployment and use.

I'm not sure if you're asserting that this is how it is, or that this is how it should be, but aboard a warship, it's a little different. The firing of our weapons is the business of the junior officers and petty officers. (again, not saying this is how it should be, but how it is).

We do train the NCOs to fire the guns and AA missiles, but that is considered an emergency back-up. In the primary role, it is Lt(N)/PO1 who fires the main gun and ESSM, and it is ALWAYS  a Lt(N)/PO1 who fires the Harpoons and Torpedoes; no one junior to them is trained on those systems.

Aboard HMC Ships, the Lt(N) and PO1 of a warfare division actually have the same exact job; fight the ship using the people and weapon systems in their respective division. Who actually does the fighting depends simply on who happened to be on watch when crap hit the fan. The off-watch director simply stands next to him and helps out however he can.
 

George Wallace

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Chief Stoker said:
Looks like the CAF been given their marching orders


Canadian Forces to draft plan to help resettle Syrian refugees

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadian-forces-to-draft-plan-to-help-resettle-syrian-refugees/article27041233/

In Germany they are in serious trouble finding clothing and shelter for the numbers that they are getting.  They are upset that other nations are not lightening the burden.  They are even discussing with the American Forces in Germany for assistance that may include housing.
 

McG

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E.R. Campbell said:
Even the most complex and lethal machinery is the business of the NCOs. Officers, junior officers, ought to learn how to operate the machines, but only so that they can properly supervise and manage their deployment and use.
That is the army model.  I think pilots illustrate that the air force uses a different model.

Remius said:
Let's also not forget that we have professional groups like JAG, TDOs, etc that are not necessarily leading anyone (or very few) but due to their professional status are at that Rank. 
I acknowledge the professional groups, but note rank inflation exists there too.  Within these occupations, the statement still is true: Majors are not required where there are not people to command.  There is no reason for the local office of lawyers to be all majors when all but one could be captains.  They have thier own pay scale; they don't need extra compensation with inflated ranks.


 

Blackadder1916

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Old Sweat

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Blackadder1916 said:
Or, you just dust off the old plans that have already been used.

Operation MAGNET

Operation MAGNET II  (I was at the Griesbach Barracks location for a short spell)

Operation MAGNET III

Operation PARASOL

If anybody can find them, it is a good start, especially if there are any lessons learned or after action reports. I know I did a file search, etc before I drafted the NEO plan for Haiti in 1991 after a coup overthrew Aristide and then later revised it in 1993 or 1994.
 

dapaterson

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Remius said:
Let's also not forget that we have professional groups like JAG, TDOs, etc that are not necessarily leading anyone (or very few) but due to their professional status are at that Rank.

The sum total of the PML for all TDOs and Legal officers at all ranks is still smaller than the PML for Infantry at Major.  Besides, that was intended as illustrative; there are some differences in employment models between occupations which may result in some skewing.  The problem space remains: the optimal ratio of officers to NCMs - what should it be?

(And I stand corrected: the PML for Inf Maj is well under 400, closer to 300).
 

Old Sweat

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That PML is still inflated compared to the 13 battalion army with four large brigade groups.
 

Remius

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dapaterson said:
The sum total of the PML for all TDOs and Legal officers at all ranks is still smaller than the PML for Infantry at Major.  Besides, that was intended as illustrative; there are some differences in employment models between occupations which may result in some skewing.  The problem space remains: the optimal ratio of officers to NCMs - what should it be?

(And I stand corrected: the PML for Inf Maj is well under 400, closer to 300).

Not sure what the ratio should be but it should be based on occupation or occupational organisation.  Take the infantry and figure out how many officers are required, for how long, succession planning and where to send them when done.  So say an infantry company requires a Major.  Maybe he does a stint before as OC of a training company or something else for three years, three years as OC of a rifle company then cycled to another or back to a school in a more advanced course or staff position before promotion to LCol.  So for each rifle company Major you need one in the wings, one on, one moving on.  3 Majors for each actual command position of a rifle company.  Mind yuou then you might want some depth due to realeases, injuries, failures etc but you likely have some star captains that could step up.  Heck you could send some to the reserves to be DCO/CO depending on their size. 
 

ModlrMike

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Remius said:
Heck you could send some to the reserves to be DCO/CO depending on their size.

Somehow I think you meant something different from what you wrote.  ;D
 

Kirkhill

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Remius said:
Not sure what the ratio should be but it should be based on occupation or occupational organisation.  Take the infantry and figure out how many officers are required, for how long, succession planning and where to send them when done.  So say an infantry company requires a Major.  Maybe he does a stint before as OC of a training company or something else for three years, three years as OC of a rifle company then cycled to another or back to a school in a more advanced course or staff position before promotion to LCol. So for each rifle company Major you need one in the wings, one on, one moving on.   3 Majors for each actual command position of a rifle company.  Mind yuou then you might want some depth due to realeases, injuries, failures etc but you likely have some star captains that could step up.  Heck you could send some to the reserves to be DCO/CO depending on their size.

Isn't the "waiting in the wings" Major supposed to be a Captain? 
 

overseer

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The beauty of being a public servant. We can easily shift allegiance with justification. "Give to Ceasar what is suppose to be to Ceasar, to God what is suppose to be to God". We all now report to Prime Minister Trudeau. :salute:
 

Edward Campbell

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There is an opportunity, given Russia's renewed attention to the Arctic, for Prime Minister designate Trudeau to reorient Canada's foreign and defence policies in directions that may please more Canadians than did Prime Minister Harper's:

  First: get out of thew Middle East ~ completely out;

  Second: stay engaged in Eastern Europe with a mix of naval, land and air elements;

  Third: focus more and more attention on the North ~

      a. Commit to defined (larger) number of AOPS and to accelerating the construction of the CCGS John G Diefenbaker;

      b. Increase the number, duration, frequency, intensity and, especially, visibility of Army exercises in the North;

      c. Keep the promise to cancel the F-35 but commit to buying aircraft (fighter/interceptors and long range patrol) that will do better at maintaining sovereignty over the Arctic; and

      d. Commit to an integrated space, air, terrestrial and underwater sensor/warning/communications system to give Canada near real time coverage of all the territory and contiguous waters (and maritime approaches) we claim as our own and the airspace over both.
 

BurnDoctor

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overseer said:
The beauty of being a public servant. We can easily shift allegiance with justification. "Give to Ceasar what is suppose to be to Ceasar, to God what is suppose to be to God". We all now report to Prime Minister Trudeau. :salute:

Nope, that's not how it works. Technically we report to the Governor General.
 
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