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Canada's New, Liberal, Defence Policy

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dapaterson

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SeaKingTacco said:
Fine. Stipulated.

Corporate welfare is still wrong.

Fully agree.  It's what gave us gull-winged cars in New Brunswick, greenhouses in Newfoundland...
 

daftandbarmy

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dapaterson said:
Fully agree.  It's what gave us gull-winged cars in New Brunswick, greenhouses in Newfoundland...

And, of course: http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/should-the-federal-government-bail-out-bombardier/
 

Pencil Tech

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E.R. Campbell said:
There is an opportunity, given Russia's renewed attention to the Arctic, for Prime Minister designate Trudeau to reorient Canada's foreign and defence policies in directions that may please more Canadians than did Prime Minister Harper's:

  First: get out of thew Middle East ~ completely out;

  Second: stay engaged in Eastern Europe with a mix of naval, land and air elements;

  Third: focus more and more attention on the North ~

      a. Commit to defined (larger) number of AOPS and to accelerating the construction of the CCGS John G Diefenbaker;

      b. Increase the number, duration, frequency, intensity and, especially, visibility of Army exercises in the North;

      c. Keep the promise to cancel the F-35 but commit to buying aircraft (fighter/interceptors and long range patrol) that will do better at maintaining sovereignty over the Arctic; and

      d. Commit to an integrated space, air, terrestrial and underwater sensor/warning/communications system to give Canada near real time coverage of all the territory and contiguous waters (and maritime approaches) we claim as our own and the airspace over both.

100%
 

Fishbone Jones

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daftandbarmy said:
And, of course: http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/should-the-federal-government-bail-out-bombardier/

Read Bombardier = Power Corporation

I say we shouldn't, but Power Corporation all but owns the Liberal party so we probably will.
 

Eye In The Sky

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SeaKingTacco said:
The simple answer is that you cannot carry torpedos externally on anything other than a helicopter and expect them to actually work when you need them in an environment like Canada's.

They actually do need to be protected in a heated bomb bay. That rules out most aircraft, right there.

I also doubt the Q400 has the speed or fuel reserves to make it out 1500nm from shore and actually be able to hang around long enough to do anything useful.

None of this is to say that we have to do MPA work with something like the P3. It is just that the alternative solution is not obvious to me.

Like the army had to deal with the LSVW...the RCAF might have to deal with a 'less than optimal' solution, that benefits things like industry better than military requirements...if I had to take either of those, I'd drop the sono's, MAD and kill stores and make it 'the next generation Challenger'/CP-140A...

But I'd rather have the non-LSVW platform.  I just don't think we will get it.
 

Kirkhill

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Eye In The Sky said:
Like the army had to deal with the LSVW...the RCAF might have to deal with a 'less than optimal' solution, that benefits things like industry better than military requirements...if I had to take either of those, I'd drop the sono's, MAD and kill stores and make it 'the next generation Challenger'/CP-140A...

But I'd rather have the non-LSVW platform.  I just don't think we will get it.

Would that make it something like this?

Danish air force planning Challenger 604 mid-life upgrade

20 APRIL, 2015 BY: BETH STEVENSON LONDON

The Royal Danish Air Force is preparing to embark on a mid-life upgrade of its Bombardier Challenger 604 maritime patrol aircraft, which is expected to be implemented by 2018.

The four-strong fleet of Danish 604s will receive a series of modifications including a new downlink and a multirole radar capable of carrying out surface surveillance, weather monitoring and oil slick detection, as well as a new cockpit to the Challenger 605 standard.

A new aircraft is not on the cards due to the requirement for a new fighter to replace Denmark’s Lockheed Martin F-16s, which is currently the procurement funding priority.

Final discussions are under way to decide on financing and how the upgrade will manifest. Denmark has sought information from Bombardier, but it is not clear if the airframer would be expected to lead the upgrade programme.

The Danish 604s currently boast satellite communications, radios, the Telephonics OceanEye APS-143 maritime surveillance radar, an automatic identification system and a FLIR Systems Star Safire electro-optical/infrared sensor.

The OceanEye was expected to be able to monitor oil slicks but was unable to do so, so the air force procured one side-looking aperture radar for this role.

“We have found ourselves in a situation in which we didn’t have the radar we needed,” Maj Jacob Bos, airstaff from Defense Command Denmark, told the SMi ISR conference in London. “The surveillance radar isn’t reliable enough, nor is the FLIR, and our consoles don’t support flexibility, so we are looking at this mid-life upgrade for the Challenger.”

Of the four 604s in the air force’s inventory, three are currently utilised in the MPA role and one in a VIP and transport configuration, according to Flightglobal’s Ascend Fleets database.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/danish-air-force-planning-challenger-604-mid-life-upgrade-411400/

Or more like this?

Sentinel R1


The aircraft, Sentinel R1, is a modified version of the Global Express, which is an executive business jet manufactured by Bombardier.

5 (Army Co-Operation) Squadron
RAF Waddington
Role

The Sentinel R1 is the RAF’s only long-range wide area battlefield surveillance asset, providing critical intelligence and target tracking information to British and Coalition forces.

Specifications
Engines: 2 BMW/Rolls Royce 710 engines
Thrust: 14,750lbs each
Max speed: 530kts
Length: 30.30m
Max altitude: 40,000ft
Span: 28.49m
Aircrew: 5

Aircrew: 2 RAF Pilots. 1 RAF Mission Commander. 2 Image Analysts (either RAF or Army Intelligence Corps).

Using the aircraft’s powerful radar the mission crew can identify and track numerous targets over great distances, passing the information in near real time to friendly forces. The mission crew is backed up by a team of intelligence specialists who conduct in-depth forensic analysis of data collected by the aircraft, generating intelligence products that are passed to commanders and decision makers enabling them to plan future operations. The on-board Intelligence Analysts are a mix of RAF and British Army Intelligence Corps SNCOs. The GS provide a longer term analytical capability to answer more in-depth questions and Requests for Information (RFIs). The GS are staffed by Intelligence Analysts from the Intelligence Corps and RAF, and supported by R Signals and REME technicians, both at RAF Waddington and the deployed operating base.

The Sentinel R1, which entered service in December 2008, is the most advanced long-range, airborne-surveillance system of its kind in the world.

The aircraft has been deployed operationally in Afghanistan since 2009 and provided vital intelligence during NATO operations in Libya in 2011, and French operations in Mali, in 2013.

Sentinel System

After the 1990 Gulf War, it was identified by the allies that Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance had played a key role in the success of this operation. In particular, the use of Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) and Ground Moving Target Indicator (GMTI) had proved invaluable in the tracking and prosecution of enemy ground forces. This galvanised the UK to acquire its own capability and in 1993 the requirement was endorsed by the MOD.

The solution chosen by the MOD was the Airborne STand-Off Radar (ASTOR) to be known as the Sentinel system. The Sentinel system consists of Air, Land and Support segments. The Air segment consists of 5 converted Bombardier Global Express aircraft, named the Sentinel R1, fitted with a Dual Mode Radar (DMR). This radar is similar to the U2 ASARS radar, and collects SAR imagery and GMTI data. The Land segment consists of 2 transportable Operational Level Ground Stations (OLGS) and 6 mobile Tactical Ground Stations (TGS). These ground stations (GS) are connected to the aircraft via data links and provide Near Real Time (NRT) intelligence to commanders and their staffs at multiple levels of command.

Sentinel was originally intended for conventional war-fighting operations, to track armoured formations and conduct strategic reconnaissance tasks. However, the capability has been shown to be flexible and has been adapted for use in a number of different roles by 5 (Army Cooperation) Sqn.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/sentinelr1.cfm
 

Kirkhill

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On that score

Suppose the Government told the RCAF to take yet another look at the FWSAR project and suggested this:

Separate the SEARCH function from the RESCUE function.

Look for a SEARCH capable aircraft that would ADD to the capabilities of the CP-140 fleet - taking some of the patrol duties off them and increasing the number of aircraft updating the Common Intelligence Picture.  The remaining CP-140 hours could be focused on either ASW work, Anti-Vlad work or Anti-ISIL work.  (No bombs need be dropped).

Meanwhile, the RESCUE function could be handled by adding a flight of Hercs and another 6 pack of Cormorants, Chinooks or Cyclones.

Maaaaaybeeeee?

Additional Canadianization could be achieved through more MDA satellites and Canadian Space Agency.  That would leave room for some American MALE UAVs.

And punt the F35 decision until after the next election.
 

PuckChaser

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Isn't the point of FWSAR to get an A/C out to locations a larger distance away, and once located, start the rescue? If you have 2 A/C, now you're having to wait on station to put the SAR Techs on the ground while the other A/C transits.
 

Eye In The Sky

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I think pollution monitoring is a task for another department.  That's me.  I like the Sentinel but it's a one-trick pony;  if we are talking about a MMA/LRPA I think it, like the Aurora, needs to be able to perform multiple tasks.  We just don't have the $$ for 1-tricks (IMO).

I'll leave the thoughts on SAR assets to those who are in that business.  LRPAs are SAR back-up now when required/directed, but it isn't our bread and butter. 

The concern I have over purchasing strictly 'search' airframes is that they can do only that;  search.  You want to be able to localize, track and...if required, prosecute a contact.  Before it slips away and you lose it. 

 

kev994

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Chris Pook said:
On that score

Suppose the Government told the RCAF to take yet another look at the FWSAR project and suggested this:

Separate the SEARCH function from the RESCUE function.

Look for a SEARCH capable aircraft that would ADD to the capabilities of the CP-140 fleet - taking some of the patrol duties off them and increasing the number of aircraft updating the Common Intelligence Picture.  The remaining CP-140 hours could be focused on either ASW work, Anti-Vlad work or Anti-ISIL work.  (No bombs need be dropped).

Meanwhile, the RESCUE function could be handled by adding a flight of Hercs and another 6 pack of Cormorants, Chinooks or Cyclones.

Maaaaaybeeeee?

Additional Canadianization could be achieved through more MDA satellites and Canadian Space Agency.  That would leave room for some American MALE UAVs.

And punt the F35 decision until after the next election.
The patient is going to bleed out between when they are found and when they are rescued.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Chris Pook said:
On that score

Suppose the Government told the RCAF to take yet another look at the FWSAR project and suggested this:

Separate the SEARCH function from the RESCUE function.

Look for a SEARCH capable aircraft that would ADD to the capabilities of the CP-140 fleet - taking some of the patrol duties off them and increasing the number of aircraft updating the Common Intelligence Picture.  The remaining CP-140 hours could be focused on either ASW work, Anti-Vlad work or Anti-ISIL work.  (No bombs need be dropped).

Meanwhile, the RESCUE function could be handled by adding a flight of Hercs and another 6 pack of Cormorants, Chinooks or Cyclones.

Maaaaaybeeeee?

Additional Canadianization could be achieved through more MDA satellites and Canadian Space Agency.  That would leave room for some American MALE UAVs.

And punt the F35 decision until after the next election.

There is a reason it's called "pararescue"  ;)

The Buffalo's have a few SARTECHs on board ready to jump with kit if they find who/what they are looking for. 

I imagine the CC130 Hs are the same.  S&R and LRP are, in reality, two unrelated functions.
 

GR66

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Eye In The Sky said:
I think pollution monitoring is a task for another department.  That's me.  I like the Sentinel but it's a one-trick pony;  if we are talking about a MMA/LRPA I think it, like the Aurora, needs to be able to perform multiple tasks.  We just don't have the $$ for 1-tricks (IMO).

I'll leave the thoughts on SAR assets to those who are in that business.  LRPAs are SAR back-up now when required/directed, but it isn't our bread and butter. 

The concern I have over purchasing strictly 'search' airframes is that they can do only that;  search.  You want to be able to localize, track and...if required, prosecute a contact.  Before it slips away and you lose it.

I think it makes sense for the aircraft to have at least some ability to respond.  Underwing torpedoes may not perform very well and a jet might not be great for low-level work, but at least the Global Express has torpedoes, can carry Harpoon, has MAD, sonobouys and can drop SAR pods, all with pretty good speed and patrol endurance.  It certainly is not as good as good as an Aurora on a one to one basis, but IF you could get them cheap enough they could make a real difference to a key defense tasking. 
 

Kirkhill

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GR66 said:
I think it makes sense for the aircraft to have at least some ability to respond.  Underwing torpedoes may not perform very well and a jet might not be great for low-level work, but at least the Global Express has torpedoes, can carry Harpoon, has MAD, sonobouys and can drop SAR pods, all with pretty good speed and patrol endurance.  It certainly is not as good as good as an Aurora on a one to one basis, but IF you could get them cheap enough they could make a real difference to a key defense tasking.

The advantage of the Global Express variants are they are made in Canada - where money is no object - as opposed to the Boeing P8 which is made in the US - which doesn't need our money.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Eye In The Sky said:
I think pollution monitoring is a task for another department.  That's me.  I like the Sentinel but it's a one-trick pony;  if we are talking about a MMA/LRPA I think it, like the Aurora, needs to be able to perform multiple tasks.  We just don't have the $$ for 1-tricks (IMO).

I'll leave the thoughts on SAR assets to those who are in that business.  LRPAs are SAR back-up now when required/directed, but it isn't our bread and butter. 

The concern I have over purchasing strictly 'search' airframes is that they can do only that;  search.  You want to be able to localize, track and...if required, prosecute a contact.  Before it slips away and you lose it.

yep already covered by Transport Canada
surveillance.jpg
 

cld617

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PuckChaser said:
Isn't the point of FWSAR to get an A/C out to locations a larger distance away, and once located, start the rescue? If you have 2 A/C, now you're having to wait on station to put the SAR Techs on the ground while the other A/C transits.

Absolutely it is. The norm for a rescue op usually requires two assets, however two fixed wing simply cannot get it done. Fixed wing covers the majority of the ground in the search, drops SAR mbrs on scene while the helo makes its way to the site. Fixed wing asset then maneuvers into top cover position while helo brings everyone home.

As soon as you introduce another air frame you must bring bring along the entire unit and logistics system behind them to make it work. If you've seen the latest manning lvl's in 500 series trades you'll know this simply isn't an option to be considered.
 

Edward Campbell

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The Prime Minister's Mandate Letter to the MND is here. It says, specifically:

  "In particular, I will expect you to work with your colleagues and through established legislative, regulatory, and Cabinet processes to deliver on your top priorities:

    Work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to end Canada’s combat mission in Iraq and Syria, refocusing Canada’s efforts in the region on the training of local forces and humanitarian support.

    Ensure that the Canadian Armed Forces have the equipment they need. This includes:

      working with the Minister of Finance to maintain current National Defence spending levels, including current planned increases;
      working with the Minister of Public Services and Procurement to launch an open and transparent competition to replace the CF-18 fighter aircraft, focusing on options that match Canada’s defence needs; and
      working with the Minister of Public Services and Procurement to invest in strengthening the Navy, while meeting the commitments that were made as part of the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy.

    Work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to renew Canada’s commitment to United Nations peace operations. This includes:

      making Canada’s specialized capabilities – from mobile medical teams, to engineering support, to aircraft that can carry supplies and personnel – available on a case-by-case basis;
      working with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to help the United Nations respond more quickly to emerging and escalating conflicts and providing well-trained personnel to international initiatives that can be quickly deployed, such as mission commanders, staff officers,
      and headquarters units; and
      leading an international effort to improve and expand the training of military and civilian personnel deployed on peace operations, while insisting that any peacekeepers involved in misconduct be held accountable by their own country and the United Nations.

    Maintain Canada’s strong commitments to the North American Aerospace Defence Command (NORAD) and to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).

    Conduct an open and transparent review process to create a new defence strategy for Canada, replacing the now-outdated Canada First Defence Strategy.

    Renew Canada’s focus on surveillance and control of Canadian territory and approaches, particularly our Arctic regions, and increase the size of the Canadian Rangers.

    Work with senior leaders of the Canadian Armed Forces to establish and maintain a workplace free from harassment and discrimination.

    Work with the Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence to reduce complexity, overhaul service delivery, and strengthen partnerships between National Defence and Veterans Affairs.

    Support the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness in a review of existing measures to protect Canadians and our critical infrastructure from cyber-threats.

    Work with the Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence to develop a suicide prevention strategy for Canadian Armed Forces personnel and veterans.

These priorities draw heavily from our election platform commitments. The government’s agenda will be further articulated through Cabinet discussions and in the Speech from the Throne when Parliament opens.

I expect you to work closely with your Deputy Minister, the Chief of Defence Staff, who has direct responsibility for the command, control, and administration of the Canadian Forces, and their senior officials to ensure that the ongoing work of your department is undertaken in a professional manner and that decisions are made in the public interest. Your Deputy Minister will brief you on issues your department may be facing that may require decisions to be made quickly. It is my expectation that you will apply our values and principles to these decisions, so that issues facing your department are dealt with in a timely and responsible manner, and in a way that is consistent with the overall direction of our government.

Our ability, as a government, to successfully implement our platform depends on our ability to thoughtfully consider the professional, non-partisan advice of public servants. Each and every time a government employee comes to work, they do so in service to Canada, with a goal of improving our country and the lives of all Canadians. I expect you to establish a collaborative working relationship with your Deputy Minister, whose role, and the role of public servants under his or her direction, is to support you in the performance of your responsibilities.

In the coming weeks, the Privy Council Office (PCO) will be contacting you to set up a meeting with PCO officials, your Deputy Minister, and the Prime Minister’s Office to further discuss your plans, commitments, and priorities."

- See more at: http://pm.gc.ca/eng/minister-national-defence-mandate-letter#sthash.hWSoiJ3f.dpuf
 

Edward Campbell

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My comments on the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy and, in fact, on defence in general, based on an item from Michael O'Leary's "Regimental Rogue" blog, are here. I conclude by saying: "welcome to the 1930s."
 

observor 69

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Mr.Radwanski speaks to something I have been wondering. Is the government in Ottawa floundering with the boss too soon out of town?



"Understaffed Ottawa struggles to deliver refugee plan as Trudeau travels

It is enough to cast a bit of a surreal haze over the sunny new ways in the nation’s capital.

Staffing of the government elected over a month ago has moved at a glacial pace; as Ottawa crawls with aspiring aides optimistically working the social circuit, many ministers do not have a single political employee.

To the extent that the Prime Minister’s Office has taken shape, settling into any sort of rhythm has been made impossible by Justin Trudeau, his chief-of-staff and others spending much of the time since his swearing-in halfway around the world at international summits.

And amid all this, Mr. Trudeau’s Liberals continue to insist publicly that they can deliver the most ambitious implementation of a campaign commitment by any incoming federal government in memory: welcoming 25,000 Syrian refugees before the end of 2015.

Some files can be handled with relative ease by a political skeleton crew, leaning on the public service where necessary. Finance Minister Bill Morneau’s economic update on Friday is an example. So was quickly making good on the promise to restore the mandatory long-form census. Crafting the Speech from the Throne should not require more than a few capable people.

Planning and managing the rapid screening, processing and transfer of 25,000 people from refugee camps at a time the public holds considerable (if largely dubious) fears about threats to national security is not one of those files.

When the Liberals took office, civil servants told them that meeting the end-of-year target would be impossible. Civil servants are prone to over-manage expectations, and it is often wise for their political masters to push back. But that involves taking some ownership of the files themselves, and the Liberals really are not well-positioned to do that.

Immigration Minister John McCallum is among those cabinet members with little or no political staff. The same goes for Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan, Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale and Health Minister Jane Philpott, whose departments have key roles to play. The PMO is not yet set up to provide direction the way it usually would. So it falls to the skeptical bureaucrats to take a bigger role, with leadership also apparently to come from the armed forces.
In private conversations this week, senior Liberals sounded a little less hell-bent on meeting the deadline than they have for public consumption. Some allowed that the government probably would not be judged all that harshly if it took a couple of extra months to get to 25,000.

That they have nevertheless refused to this point to take “no” (or at least “slightly later”) for an answer on what was a fairly arbitrary number and time aimed at differentiating themselves from the Conservative government appears to owe to several considerations.

One is a view that the machinery of government responds better to an ambitious and ostensibly hard deadline than a more modest one. This logic holds that quickly acquiescing to aiming for spring would have caused the wheels to turn so slowly that 25,000 would have been achieved only next fall.

Rather than an excuse to slow down, the terrorist attacks in Paris may be an incentive for the Liberals to stay firm, to avoid lending credence to ugly anti-refugee posturing from politicians south of the border and a milder note of caution from Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall.

And as evidenced by his rush after being sworn in to implement a few campaign promises that could quickly be turned around, and refusal to reconsider ending Canadian participation in air strikes against Islamic State, Mr. Trudeau is clearly fixated on building credibility as the sort of politician who does what he campaigned on. After having to overcome the perception that he was not ready for the top job, the last thing he wants to do is look weak, or easily pushed around by the likes of Mr. Wall.

But with every day they dig in, the risk grows. If anything goes wrong, the fallout could undermine both Mr. Trudeau’s humanitarian goals and his leadership credibility.

It is an enormous amount of pressure for a government to put on itself, at a time it is not entirely clear who behind the scenes is absorbing it."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/understaffed-government-struggles-to-deliver-refugee-plan-as-trudeau-travels/article27425924/





 

Rifleman62

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Baden Guy:
Mr.Radwanski speaks to something I have been wondering. Is the government in Ottawa floundering with the boss too soon out of town?

You mean Gerald Butts of course.
 

Fishbone Jones

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Baden Guy said:
Mr.Radwanski speaks to something I have been wondering. Is the government in Ottawa floundering with the boss too soon out of town?

Nope, the real boss, Chretien, is still here with his gang.
 
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