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BGen Ménard relieved of Afganistan Comd & other fall-outs

I was taught, as a young sprog Sapper, by a very wise rigging instructor, to always ask myself what the worst possible outcome would be before carrying out any lifting/dragging/moving operation.  A question that I ignored at my peril in all facets of my career period of military service.  are hossifers not taught something like this?
 
In my opinion for him to be removed of command and sent home there is more to the story than "just an allegation".

I'm sure we had a fair amount of cause to send him home.  I know we're all innocent until proven guilty but both of them getting sent home like that? It's more than just rumor mill.

I don't think frat is a big issue so long as they aren't in the same chain of command and they drink in the same mess.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Part of the price of being a "somebody".........................ask Tiger.

Or even a less "somebody" ask Jesse James.

Sex sells. Like it or not. And heaven forbid, something as simple as the facts get in the way of a good selling story.
 
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/06/01/menard-leave.html

June 1, 2010
Brig.-Gen. Ménard sent on leave
By CBC News
CBC News


Brig.-Gen. Daniel Ménard has returned to Canada and has already been sent on leave, CBC News has learned.

Military spokesman Major Mike Audette said Ménard, who was relieved of command of Canadian troops in Afghanistan following allegations he was involved in an inappropriate personal relationship while in theatre, arrived back on Monday.

The female soldier he's alleged to have had an extra-marital affair with also returned on Monday.

Audette refused to provide any information about the female staffer allegedly involved in an affair with Ménard.

But he said reports the soldier involved was a low-ranking corporal "might not be accurate."

Military police investigators are still examining the allegations and refuse to say when their investigation might be complete.

Ménard has been ordered to report for duty in a few days and will be placed under the command of the Chief of the Land Staff, Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie.

Audette said he was unable to say what job Ménard will be ordered to do.

"That has yet to be determined," he said.

Once again, media reports may have jumped the gun
 
Nothing out of the ordinary - having served in Afghanistan since November, he has accrued various post-deployment leave days.
 
Not to mention, there would be the small issue of trying to reconnect with family (receptive or not) after this very public incident.
 
Is this what they teach at public affairs (journalism) school, "But he said reports the soldier involved was a low-ranking corporal "might not be accurate." - why not "has not been confirmed" or "cannot be confirmed" or better yet "I am not in a position to comment on that as the investigation has not been completed."  And what is "a low-ranking corporal"? :eek:
 
Career-ending Menard a trios
Peter Worthington
The Calgary Sun
02 June 2010

What likely wrecked the career of Brig.-Gen. Daniel Menard -- and it is wrecked, regardless of what happens next -- was not his "inappropriate relationship" with a female soldier, but the accidental firing of his rifle at the Kandahar air base.

In wartime, generals and commanders are routinely replaced, without it necessarily affecting their careers. In peacetime, being replaced is fatal.

While Afghanistan is certainly a "war" for those there, there's still a peacetime flavour at home. Peacetime ethics preside at DND.

With Canada's strict "no touching" regulations between sexes in the military, a general flouting these ordinances is more serious than a non-commissioned rank violating them.

If Menard's indiscretions were obvious or well-known, he had to go -- if only as an example for others.

But his accidental firing of his weapon, in the presence of Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Walter Natynczyk, for heaven's sake, verged on unforgivable -- even though Menard paid a hefty $3,500 fine. The damage to his career was irreversible.

A sexual affair in wartime is not unusual and doesn't reflect on a soldier's fighting qualities, leadership, or ability to handle the job.

But peacetime standards are different.

The military's rules on sexual relations are as unrealistic as they are firm. The people who make the rules apparently don't understand the power of sex. Or, of sex and the soldier.

One sometimes wonders if the rule-makers are eunuchs or asexual.

Soldiers find a way around rules and when it comes to sex and wartime, hormones invariably find a way.

I recall an army padre in the Second World War who had an emotional breakdown because his commander in Italy acquired mistresses and he couldn't take it. Superiors didn't much care because the commander was successful and the war was being won.

The story is told -- possibly apocryphal, but still in character -- of two Canadian Second World War soldiers who returned from the disastrous day-long raid at Dieppe with venereal disease.

I remember being in the Congo when it got independence and Canadian signalers arrived to be quartered in a children's school in Leopoldville, with walls incongruously painted with pictures of Snow White, Bambi, the Seven Dwarfs, Grumpy and Dopey, etc.

Within their first week in Africa, a couple of entrepreneurial soldiers had taken over an empty mansion and were investigating setting up an off-limits brothel.

Just as in Kandahar, where free condoms are available for soldiers (presumably going on leave), in the Korean war there was controversy when condoms were issue to soldiers going outside the confines of the front lines.

Chaplains felt this was condoning, if not encouraging, promiscuity. But commanding officers wisely knew that even at the front, in the middle of a war, Canadian soldiers have an uncanny radar for getting into sexual mischief.

While Brig.-Gen. Menard had to be replaced for his indiscretions, his dalliance does not reflect on his competence as a soldier.

Failing to check the safety of his weapon does.

To some, it may seem unfair to fire Menard without a hearing. Yes, and no.

This is the army and a war. It is not civilian life.

More damaging to morale would be a senior officer getting away with what junior ranks would not.
 
So, we should have a 1940s lenience toward sexuality in the forces?  What other social customs should we roll the clock back on so that Mr Worthington can pretend we're still his father's Army?
 
Simian Turner said:
Is this what they teach at public affairs (journalism) school, "But he said reports the soldier involved was a low-ranking corporal "might not be accurate." - why not "has not been confirmed" or "cannot be confirmed" or better yet "I am not in a position to comment on that as the investigation has not been completed."  And what is "a low-ranking corporal"? :eek:
IF the source said exactly that - "it might not be accurate" - that's OK. "Low-ranking Corporal," though?  WTF?!?!?!  Or did the reporter mean, "a Corporal, considerably junior in rank to the General"?  IF that's what was meant, that's what should have been written (or edited by the editors).

Michael O'Leary said:
So, we should have a 1940s lenience toward sexuality in the forces?  What other social customs should we roll the clock back on so that Mr Worthington can pretend we're still his father's Army?
It isn't just Worthington - this from George Jonas via the National Post:
.... Wise, pragmatic, flexible societies accommodate mavericks. It’s pinched, neo-Victorian, mindlessly anti-masculine, obsessively egalitarian insect-hill societies that spout off about “discipline” and “morale” while trying to stretch-and-fit mavericks on Procrustean beds. Maybe Brig.-Gen. Ménard’s “inappropriate relationship” will turn out to be a genuine no-no, a security breach, consorting with an enemy necrophiliac or such. I hope so, because depriving the country of a good soldier for nothing more than an extramarital fling with a subordinate means picking Mrs. Grundy’s priorities over Wellington’s priorities. For Canada’s military, it’s a damn poor choice.

Really?  I wonder what behaviour similar to that Menard is alleged to have done would do to morale in Jonas' workplace if it was condoned as part of the price of "accommodating mavericks"?
 
Maverick or not, there is also the question of bad blood b/w teammates. I for one can think of at least one "intimate relationship" that made many things very difficult on one of my courses. Not something good for ANY workplace.

Sacrificing workplace harmony to accomodate hormones is a dubious choice, I believe.
 
TimBit said:
Maverick or not, there is also the question of bad blood b/w teammates. I for one can think of at least one "intimate relationship" that made many things very difficult on one of my courses. Not something good for ANY workplace.

You can't compare this with a course fling.  On course, no matter how nice evryone is, there is always competition to see who will get that top spot.  Any type of fratenization could be seen as people trying to get an unfair advantage -- be it with staff or another course mate.

On my deployment we had a service couple AND an engaged couple all deployed together in the same unit.  It did NOT create tension.  In fact, it was great material for jokes and other such duff.  Did they have sex?  Who knows?  Who cares!  They all got the job done and NO ONE used their partners' position to their advantage (which would be kind of hard as they were all the same rank).
 
To be blunt, both Worthington and Jonas are talking out of their butts. At least the former has some military experience, dated as it is. The latter starts his opinion piece by noting that Colonel Simon Hetherington, the Deputy Commander, said that, "Brig.-Gen. Menard's dismissal won't have an impact on Canada's mission." He goes on to write, "What worries me is that Col. Hetherington may be right. If so, our troops are commanded not by warriors but computer chips. It explains why we aren't doing better in Afghanistan."

Nice bit of work, George. You clearly don't understand that the army is designed and trained to function with losses, including losses of key personnel. To then claim that our senior commanders are not warriors is an outrageous bit of buffoonery, or maybe just journalism, where ill-informed speculation can take the place of analysis.
 
It is coming to the point where I simply disagree with anything written by Worthington because it is written by Worthington.

His claim doesn't hold water when one looks at the sequence of events.  Menard holds command 2 months after the incident which Worthington asserts is the reason for his relief.  After his trial, he returns to theater and is turned around after hitting the ground for an issue that is closed and done.

As most have pointed out, there is more at play then the media is aware of and Worthington is missing all of this to tell war stories.

As for Jonas, whatever.

The real issue that both these (and most other journalists) are missing isn't masculinity or weapons safety.  It's an issue of accountability that the post-Somalia CF has maintained strict adherence to and upholds as a central tenet of command, regardless of who the leader is.
 
Infanteer said:
The real issue that both these (and most other journalists) are missing isn't masculinity or weapons safety.  It's an issue of accountability that the post-Somalia CF has maintained strict adherence to and upholds as a central tenet of command, regardless of who the leader is.
Good news?  About a current gov't or institution?  From MSM?  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

Have to agree.
 
milnews.ca said:
It isn't just Worthington - this from George Jonas via the National Post:
.... Wise, pragmatic, flexible societies accommodate mavericks. It’s pinched, neo-Victorian, mindlessly anti-masculine, obsessively egalitarian insect-hill societies that spout off about “discipline” and “morale” while trying to stretch-and-fit mavericks on Procrustean beds. Maybe Brig.-Gen. Ménard’s “inappropriate relationship” will turn out to be a genuine no-no, a security breach, consorting with an enemy necrophiliac or such. I hope so, because depriving the country of a good soldier for nothing more than an extramarital fling with a subordinate means picking Mrs. Grundy’s priorities over Wellington’s priorities. For Canada’s military, it’s a damn poor choice.

Really?  I wonder what behaviour similar to that Menard is alleged to have done would do to morale in Jonas' workplace if it was condoned as part of the price of "accommodating mavericks"?

WTF? Did his thesaurus explode? Did he get a piece of the dust jacket embedded in his brain as the fancy words spilled all over his keyboard?  Or is he paid extra to use obscure words and references to simulate intelligent commentary?
 
Latest news on the issue:

OTTAWA — Canada's top soldier on Wednesday defended the decision to remove Brig.-Gen. Daniel Menard, accused of sexual misconduct, from leading Canadian forces in Afghanistan just before a major offensive was planned for the Kandahar region.


Gen. Walt Natynczyk said Menard's firing is a matter of enforcing strong discipline in the Armed Forces and applying the same standards to everyone.


"We've sent other people home for the same thing," Natynczyk, chief of defence staff, told reporters.


Menard, whose wife is also in the military, was fired last weekend and recalled to Canada by Lt.-Gen. Marc Lessard, commander of all Canadian troops overseas, on grounds he had an inappropriate relationship with a female member of the force in theatre.


Natynczyk asserted "we were respectful" of Menard's wife and children in handling the situation.


"We have pretty clear policies to ensure a high level of discipline within the entire contingent," Natynczyk said after delivering a speech at a military trade show. "We're on duty 24 hours a day and you never know what could occur . . . When we put people in harm's way we have to insist on a high level of discipline no matter what we're doing."


He said Menard, who commanded 2,800 Canadian military personnel in Afghanistan, retains his rank while an investigation is underway. Menard, 42, who was promoted to brigadier-general on Jan. 1, 2010, could be stripped of his rank and potentially face a court martial.


"We will wait for the investigation," Natynczyk said.


Responding to a question of whether Menard's treatment is demoralizing or disruptive to troops in Afghanistan, Natynczyk said it encouraged confidence in the way the military conducts business. "You know for the soldiers on the ground they'll acknowledge it but also acknowledge the fact that we've sent other people home for the same thing, you know, and we're holding everyone to the same standard," he said.


"We hold our leaders to a high standard," Natynczyk said.


Natynczyk said he supports Lessard's decision and has "absolute confidence" in Brig.-Gen. Jon Vance, Menard's predecessor in Afghanistan who has resumed command in Afghanistan until the end of September. American and NATO commanders understand the situation, know Vance and also have absolute confidence in him, he added.


Menard had been named to lead a critical NATO campaign against the Taliban in Kandahar.


Menarad, who returned to Canada on Monday, is on leave but will report to the chief of the land staff in the coming days, a military spokesman said.


The other person involved is also back in Canada, but no details are available about her status.


Menard is under investigation by the military's police's National Investigation Service, which handles "serious and sensitive service and criminal matters" for the Armed Forces and has the right to lay charges.


"Sexual activity or any other form of intimate contact in any context," is strictly forbidden for Canadian troops in Afghanistan, according to standing orders on personal relationships that every soldier receives before deploying to South Asia.

© Copyright (c) Canwest News Service


Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/soldier+defends+M%C3%A9nard+firing/3102139/story.html#ixzz0piVGG6Yl
 
Michael O'Leary said:
So, we should have a 1940s lenience toward sexuality in the forces?  What other social customs should we roll the clock back on so that Mr Worthington can pretend we're still his father's Army?
Screw social customs, can we reinstitute rolling barrages and carpet bombing?  Or regress even further, ban women from service (and the vote!) and employ chemical weapons!
 
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