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Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

brihard

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Remius said:
Just read that.

Sounds like a mess if any of it is true.

Some of it is accurate. A fair bit of it, particularly the parts where Palango inserts his own beliefs and assumptions, is right out of 'er. Pretty much everything he says about the initial responses - particularly with regards to IARD, containment, and the initial critical incident command - is completely worthless. IARD (I instruct it) is a response used when intelligence tells you the threat you're moving towards. If you no longer have shots, screams, or fresh witnesses pointing you towards the threat, it doesn't work. Absent those you're fumbling around in the dark.

Separately, I'm not sure how they imagine you can set up roadblocks and containment when you have a skeletal overnight crew, a half dozen crime scenes, and other first responders (fire, paramedics) to protect. I like his backhanded slam at the critical incident commander 'never attending the scene'. No crap. He's not supposed to. His role is in the CP lining up and deploying resources and making tactical decisions, not sucked into any one part of the situation. It's like asking why the battalion commander wasn't with Charlie team when they took the trench. He talks about how on the morning, they didn't call in many other cops- that's patently false. They called a ton, from all over the province, the situation simply ended with the shooter's death before many of them were in a position to assist, though many subsequently provided security at the various crime scenes. He makes lots of noise about not involving other police services, even though as I've previously discussed they didn't have compatible radios, and they did assist RCMP by taking other calls to free up Mounties. He talks about ERT just 'standing around' and not deploying to specific sites, but that's not how ERT works. They go whent here's a target area concretely identified so they don't get caught in place A when suddenly they're needed in place B. He tries to suggest the presence of a crisis negotiator suggests police had contact with the shooter, but in actuality a crisis negotiator is a part of the standard ERT / critical incident deployment package, along with several other things.

Lots of other things he gets wrong, but that's not atypical of his articles and I'm not going to take the time to dissect it further. Put stock in it if you choose to. I personally don't. There were definite things that could be improved, but fundamentally the attacker set himself up with a huge advantage, and hit an area that was very sparsely manned with police officers. He did so in just such a way as to cause maximum confusion, consume maximum police resources, but get himself out of danger spots before there could be a response.
 

daftandbarmy

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Brihard said:
Some of it is accurate. A fair bit of it, particularly the parts where Palango inserts his own beliefs and assumptions, is right out of 'er. Pretty much everything he says about the initial responses - particularly with regards to IARD, containment, and the initial critical incident command - is completely worthless. IARD (I instruct it) is a response used when intelligence tells you the threat you're moving towards. If you no longer have shots, screams, or fresh witnesses pointing you towards the threat, it doesn't work. Absent those you're fumbling around in the dark.

Separately, I'm not sure how they imagine you can set up roadblocks and containment when you have a skeletal overnight crew, a half dozen crime scenes, and other first responders (fire, paramedics) to protect. I like his backhanded slam at the critical incident commander 'never attending the scene'. No crap. He's not supposed to. His role is in the CP lining up and deploying resources and making tactical decisions, not sucked into any one part of the situation. It's like asking why the battalion commander wasn't with Charlie team when they took the trench. He talks about how on the morning, they didn't call in many other cops- that's patently false. They called a ton, from all over the province, the situation simply ended with the shooter's death before many of them were in a position to assist, though many subsequently provided security at the various crime scenes. He makes lots of noise about not involving other police services, even though as I've previously discussed they didn't have compatible radios, and they did assist RCMP by taking other calls to free up Mounties. He talks about ERT just 'standing around' and not deploying to specific sites, but that's not how ERT works. They go whent here's a target area concretely identified so they don't get caught in place A when suddenly they're needed in place B. He tries to suggest the presence of a crisis negotiator suggests police had contact with the shooter, but in actuality a crisis negotiator is a part of the standard ERT / critical incident deployment package, along with several other things.

Lots of other things he gets wrong, but that's not atypical of his articles and I'm not going to take the time to dissect it further. Put stock in it if you choose to. I personally don't. There were definite things that could be improved, but fundamentally the attacker set himself up with a huge advantage, and hit an area that was very sparsely manned with police officers. He did so in just such a way as to cause maximum confusion, consume maximum police resources, but get himself out of danger spots before there could be a response.

FWIW, even in hotly contested terrorist territory, where thousands of troops and police are available 24/7, one bad guy can do, and has done, alot of damage.

In my (not hugely extensive) experience, there's nothing harder than a hot pursuit in a rural area against a well equipped and determined opponent. And that includes the 'blue on blue' stuff, sadly.
 

lenaitch

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Had a chance to read the article.  To add to comments already posted;

- He seems rather enthralled by roadblocks (checkpoints).  They have their utility in some circumstances, but gobble up a lot of people.  Absolute minimum of 2 members each, one with a long gun.  I don't know how he expected them to be in place in any numbers until sufficient staffing was assembled (considering all the other tasks that needed to be done as well).

- Large numbers of police officers on one channel.  Sounds like the 'good' old days.

- 'Many members from other detachments didn't know the area'.  Well, no shit.

- As mentioned, tactical deployment (we called it 'IRD - Initial Rapid Deployment) assumes an active threat in a given known area.  Otherwise, you are wandering around in the dark.

- The UK has (or at least had, it's been a while) a Gold-Silver-Bronze operational command system.  Gold (if required) is executive command; political leadership, etc. usually at a designated operations centre.  Silver is incident command, usually at an local operations centre, often co-located with communications, for the incident commander, scribe, intelligence, etc.  Bronze is on-scene command; tactical team leaders, i/c investigation, uniform team leaders, etc.  In this case, if the author expected the incident command to be on-scene, which scene?  It would look like that scene from 'Airplane' where the gate keeps changing.

- The author seems to be pretty blase about the safety of a non-police aircraft providing assistance.  Low altitude searching for a fugitive armed with a high-powered rifle has all sorts of risks, and I will assume a natural resources aircraft has neither infrared or night vision.  Even if it was an RCMP helicopter, I honestly don't know what the operational protocols are, but the pilot-in-command has a general responsibility for the safe operation of their aircraft.  If someone is decent with a rifle, a helicopter at low altitude can be pretty vulnerable.

It seems the announced 'review' has satisfied few, if any.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7211458/nova-scotia-shooting-public-inquiry-review-rcmp/
 

Remius

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Brihard said:
Some of it is accurate. A fair bit of it, particularly the parts where Palango inserts his own beliefs and assumptions, is right out of 'er. Pretty much everything he says about the initial responses - particularly with regards to IARD, containment, and the initial critical incident command - is completely worthless. IARD (I instruct it) is a response used when intelligence tells you the threat you're moving towards. If you no longer have shots, screams, or fresh witnesses pointing you towards the threat, it doesn't work. Absent those you're fumbling around in the dark.

Separately, I'm not sure how they imagine you can set up roadblocks and containment when you have a skeletal overnight crew, a half dozen crime scenes, and other first responders (fire, paramedics) to protect. I like his backhanded slam at the critical incident commander 'never attending the scene'. No crap. He's not supposed to. His role is in the CP lining up and deploying resources and making tactical decisions, not sucked into any one part of the situation. It's like asking why the battalion commander wasn't with Charlie team when they took the trench. He talks about how on the morning, they didn't call in many other cops- that's patently false. They called a ton, from all over the province, the situation simply ended with the shooter's death before many of them were in a position to assist, though many subsequently provided security at the various crime scenes. He makes lots of noise about not involving other police services, even though as I've previously discussed they didn't have compatible radios, and they did assist RCMP by taking other calls to free up Mounties. He talks about ERT just 'standing around' and not deploying to specific sites, but that's not how ERT works. They go whent here's a target area concretely identified so they don't get caught in place A when suddenly they're needed in place B. He tries to suggest the presence of a crisis negotiator suggests police had contact with the shooter, but in actuality a crisis negotiator is a part of the standard ERT / critical incident deployment package, along with several other things.

Lots of other things he gets wrong, but that's not atypical of his articles and I'm not going to take the time to dissect it further. Put stock in it if you choose to. I personally don't. There were definite things that could be improved, but fundamentally the attacker set himself up with a huge advantage, and hit an area that was very sparsely manned with police officers. He did so in just such a way as to cause maximum confusion, consume maximum police resources, but get himself out of danger spots before there could be a response.

I’m leery of the author given his history going after the RCMP for so long so I assume there is some bias on his part. 
 

Jarnhamar

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The push back and run around doesn't help the situation. I get that buddy may be connected to whatever criminal element and it's being investigated, I'm usually the first to suggest people should back off and let police do their job, but there's a lot of weird things with this one.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Nova Scotia gunman allegedly smuggled guns and drugs from U.S.: court docs

By Andrew Russell Global News
Posted July 27, 2020 2:00 pm


The gunman in the Nova Scotia shooting that killed 22 people was alleged to have trafficked drugs and firearms from the United States, according to newly unsealed documents from the provincial court in Nova Scotia.

Following the shooting, one unidentified witness told police that they were aware that “[Gabriel Wortman] had smuggled guns and drugs from Maine for years and had a stockpile of guns,” the documents say.

“Gabriel Wortman smuggled drugs from Maine and had a bag of 10,000 oxy-contin pills and 15,000 dilaudid from a reservation in New Brunswick,” a witness told Halifax Regional Police, according to the documents.

The same witness, who first met the gunman in 2011, also told police that the gunman “builds fires and burns bodies, is a sexual predator, and supplies drugs in Portapique and Economy, Nova Scotia.”

More at link

http://globalnews.ca/news/7222849/nova-scotia-gunman-allegedly-smuggled-guns-and-drugs-from-u-s-court-docs/

Nothing to see here folks, RCMP and Government are being 100% transparent and telling the truth about this guy  :rofl:
 

materialpigeonfibre

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Small crazy world.

I was in Nova Scotia in Kentville. I was doing enemy force.
The gal I was going to marry got pregnant. It wasn't mine. I hit the blueberry ale pretty hard at Paddy's pub downtown.

A man comes in spinning a tale of how he was desperate, how he was going to loose he house, he was kicked out, got swindled out of the house, how he was trying in the courts but it wasn't likely to work.
Such a crazy story. But he spun it for an hour.
I humored him. How do you loose a house? You must have signed something.

I have a feeling it was wortman.
Unless that's a common thing in NS.

Halifax Tar said:
I read this, this morning.  Agreed something is rotten...

Aye, something is rotten. Why is macleans suddenly waking up and doing reporting?
 

dapaterson

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CBC has posted a long-form item walking through "13 deadly hours".

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/nova-scotia-shooting-13-deadly-hours
 

Scott

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Global has a podcast on same, and CBC's Fifth Estate is supposed to be doing something tonight.

I believe that a guy I know is going to be speaking, he has some very interesting info on the response - he lived through it as a resident/neighbour.
 

Eaglelord17

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Pretty weak charge. Likely a attempt to deflect from what was actually going on behind the scene.

I suspect they could even argue that any jail time for the ammo would be cruel and unusual punishment as you can legally purchase all the components required for making ammunition and assemble it yourself without penalty. Possession isn't the crime, only transfer.
 

brihard

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If they had the evidence, not laying the charges in this case would be extremely difficult to defend and would beg the question as to why we have a requirement to be licensed to obtain ammunition at all.
 

Scott

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Right. I'll bite. I have questions/comments. They are ones that are a common refrain in my area.

Everything that has been said about the charges the former CLS faces is mostly sympathetic toward her. Not hard to be, for many good reasons. There are also some weird things:
-she's suing his estate. Separated herself as executor, then sued the estate once she was clear. I'm sure she has a legit claim, this action just really confused locals, and angered them. She has made no public comment (her right) and that has compounded this.
-the guy who provided her shelter doesn't believe she spent a night in the woods. It was below zero that night and she appeared at his door (~0600) in yoga attire.
-said guy is also a career forester. Knows what someone would look like after a night in the woods.

The fucking fire hall. Over thirty rounds into it. Not to mention some poor Mountie getting shot at for being a Mountie, and the firefighters and civillians/neighbours who were witness to this.

The emergency alert. I don't know/care where the finger of blame rests now, but I think it's an easy statement to make that the people in my neighbourhood, at the very least, would have been safe if they had have known what was going on. The simplicity of it is that you don't have to download an app, or agree to TOS, or even update it to have it work - they literally broadcast the message. Done!

I'll keep it to this. There are other concerns about 18/19 April which could beg some serious questions - but I can't confirm it as anything other than rumour.
 

Halifax Tar

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Scott said:
The ******* fire hall. Over thirty rounds into it. Not to mention some poor Mountie getting shot at for being a Mountie, and the firefighters and civillians/neighbours who were witness to this.

I don't remember hearing about that
 

Scott

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Halifax Tar said:
I don't remember hearing about that

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/onslow-fire-hall-gunfire-during-mass-shootings-1.5805495

It's like one of the "bad/bad" scenarios that actually happened during this event. There are/may be more.

My understanding is the shot at cop was not from the area and simply standing a post he was told to. The other two, whom I understand were also not from the area, saw him as they were driving by, and since the gunman was dressed as a cop, well, they took up behind a wooden garbage bin and in a ditch then filled the firehall, and a couple of trucks, with holes. Because he was in RCMP uniform. You know, working.

RCMP quickly paid to fix the damage and SIRT has hardly uttered a peep about this. I have heard from a couple of people that the shot at cop is still off work, can't blame the poor bastard.

Edited to clarify my understanding about RCMP involved in shots at fire hall not from area, meaning Detachment. I have been told that the shot at Mountie was from the Pictou County area. That could be as much as an hour away.
 

Eaglelord17

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Brihard said:
If they had the evidence, not laying the charges in this case would be extremely difficult to defend and would beg the question as to why we have a requirement to be licensed to obtain ammunition at all.

There is a lot in this case I find highly suspicious and likely will look terrible on the government, especially the longer they drag out actually telling people what happened. To me this minor charge is basically showing them attempting to find some way to deflect blame from the results. Is there going to be charges of criminal negligence on the police officers going back over the years? Any one going to be fired over their poor judgement? Because to me it looks like either A) there was some extreme incompetency/negligence of duty, in the police in that area ignoring MULTIPLE calls and warnings that this guy illegally possessed firearms over the years, or B) they knew and due to their knowledge and refusal to do anything about it are complicit in the actions.

I do question why we have the requirement to be licensed to buy ammo in the first place as you can legally possess ammo without a license and buy all the components to manufacture it yourself without a license.
 

Scott

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Well, anyone hoping that Frank Magazine was going to eventually go completely online and then disappear altogether has the RCMP and both Liberal governments to thank for what I think may be a resurgence.

The Fifth Estate was a part one of a potential five, for me, just based on the conversations I've had, and the reporting I have retained.

 

The Bread Guy

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Another fake Mountie & car incident in NS - this from the RCMP yesterday:
Antigonish RCMP have arrested a 23-year-old man from Antigonish for Impersonation of a Police Officer and seized a vehicle.

Members recently responded to complaints of a suspect driving what looked like an unmarked police vehicle in the Halifax Regional Municipality and Antigonish County. Police believe that the suspect may have used this mock police vehicle to pull over other vehicles.

The RCMP arrested the suspect without incident at a residence in Antigonish and seized a vehicle matching the description. The suspect has been released from custody on conditions and will appear in Antigonish Provincial Court on March 24, 2021 at 9:30 a.m.

Antigonish RCMP believe that there may be additional unreported incidents where this vehicle was used to attempt to pull people over between the areas of Halifax and Antigonish ...
 

lenaitch

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It seems that every area I worked in there was some numpty who drove a post-auction police cruiser; perhaps sticking a CB antenna back in the hole. I suppose it gave them jollies, figured it helped them in traffic or felt they were 'helping'. Most were losers. It became less significant during the period when the Force went to all-white cars. I don't think any were caught actively personating or pulling folks over, but it has happened and, as we saw in NS, can have frightening consequences in the wrong hands (minds).
 
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