Updated Army Service Dress project

[rmc_wannabe]

What capbage would the Army Log folks wear ? On the Army side the Log Br is made up of RCOC, RCASC, RCAPC and I'm sure others.

I could see a similar approach to what the RLC did in the British Army and develop a blend of the traditions into a unifying branding. That would be a proper avenue for this exercise instead of the travesty thst happened in 1968.

 

[QV]

I'd be happy with a Star Trek theme. Reconciling I'd always be a "Redshirt" anyway.

Redshirt: "mainly to refer to those characters who are expendable, and quite often killed, sometimes in great numbers"

 

[Good2Golf]

The gabardine is an afront to outerwear. If we are going to do this right, get a proper overcoat with insignia that doesn't look like something you mugged a flasher in the park for.

Dammit, rmc…now I have to clean my keyboard!

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I could see a similar approach to what the RLC did in the British Army and develop a blend of the traditions into a unifying branding. That would be a proper avenue for this exercise instead of the travesty thst happened in 1968.

Figured I'd link anyway:

Cap Badge​

The RLC cap badge is an amalgamation of the cap badges of the forming corps:

• The laurel and garter band is from the Royal Engineers
• The Indian star is from the Royal Corps of Transport
• The shield in the centre is from the Royal Army Ordnance Corps
• The crossed axes are from the Royal Pioneer Corps
• The motto, "We Sustain", is from the Army Catering Corps

The inscription on the garter band "Honi soit qui mal y pense" can be translated as "Shame on anyone who thinks evil of it". It is the motto of the Order of the Garter.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I like the motto. "We sustain".

 

[dimsum]

Legit question, does it usually matter when you're wearing a ball cap or bush cap day to day? How about on parade?

Well, that’s why we have the Velcro on CADPAT

 

[Blackadder1916]

Will they change the backing of the insignia (i.e. jump wings) to brown?

While there were a number of differences among insignia backing in the "old days", the backing on "jump wings" was much the same as it is now, even when worn on brown or tan uniforms.

(images from Canadian MP Virtual Museum)



(and an image from Gallery)


Detailed descriptions of variations of Canadian Army (i.e., pre-CAF) parachute wings can be found at Canadian Parachute Qualification Wings Descriptions - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

While some had a backing described as "dark green" that appeared to be black, most of the wings had a black backing.

 

[Happy Guy]

You're kind of off the mark. As far as the Army berets are concerned:

Army Blue - RCCS, RCEME, RRCA, C Int C
Khaki - Foot Guards
Black - Armoured/Cav
Rifle Green - RCE, RCLS, RCChS, RCMS, RCDC, Rifle Regts, Infantry, Everyone else that's still "Branched" in a triservice role.
Maroon - Airborne
Scarlett - MPs
Tan - SOF



Army members of the RCLS still wear the Rifle Green beret. Going back to lineage, the beret colour used for the RCASC and the RCOC were Army Blue (General Service) as were the RCE, RCAMC, RDCD, and everyone else.

Granted when green was the norm with Unification, green berets made sense because it matched. Now that we (Army) are returning to an Army Service Dress, it would make sense to have those in "Purple" branches adopt Army historical accoutrement. This already has been seen in the RCCS and C Int C, sonI hope that RCLS, RCMS, et al are given their marching orders with this change as well.

I also hope this hastens the death of the "Branch" identifiers (note: Identifiers, not structure. Structure makes sense) that is no longer relevant in our current Army imaging and branding.I have no idea of how authoritative this website is, but it does mention the colours of berets used by the Canadian Army in the 1950s.

I have no idea of how authoritative this website is but mentions the colour of berets worn by the Canadian Army commencing in 1951.

A series of coloured berets was introduced in 1951, following the announcement of Adjutant General Instruction 507/1951 dated 24 Oct 51. Stating that "The khaki beret is to be abolished" it outlined that "all corps except Royal Canadian Armoured Corps and Royal Canadian Infantry Corps will wear navy blue beret with sewn-on coloured flashes." Units of the Royal Canadian Infantry Corps were to adopt a red beret, and rifle units a rifle green beret. The Royal Hamilton Light Infantry were permitted a dark green beret. No infantry or armoured units (who retained the traditional black beret) were to wear coloured flashes. (The obvious exceptions to this announcement were Scottish, Highland and Irish units). Individuals who were parachute qualified appear to have been permitted to wear the maroon beret.​ The coloured flashes referred to were five inches wide at the base, cut in the shape of a half moon and the cap badge was worn in the centre of the flash. The troops hated the large flash and on 7 Jan 54 AGI 54/3 was issued to direct that the blue berets were to be modified by the removal of the coloured flash. The cap badge was to be mounted on a coloured flash cut to shape, 1/8 inch wider than the dimensions of the badge.​

​

As with most wide-spread uniform changes, especially in peace time, the changeover was slow. Khaki berets continued to be worn by soldiers in Korea and at home. Other types of caps, such as the Yukon cap and peaked winter cap, intended to be replaced by the beret, soldiered on in many instances for several years.​

	The armoured corps retained their traditional black beret.
	Rifle Regiments adopted a rifle green beret.
	Individuals serving in parachute units were entitled to wear the maroon beret.
	Units of the Royal Canadian Infantry Corps (excepting Highland, Scottish, Irish and Rifle Regiments) wore a red or scarlet beret.
	All other corps adopted a very dark navy blue beret, intended to be worn with coloured flashes behind the badge. Also referred to as Midnight Blue, the berets appeared almost black in colour.
	The Corps of Royal Canadian Engineers, Royal Canadian Corps of Signals, Canadian Postal Corps - blue flash.
	Royal Canadian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers - dark blue flash.
	Royal Canadian Army Service Corps, Royal Canadian Army Pay Corps- yellow flash.
	Royal Canadian Army Medical Corps - dull cherry flash.
	Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps, Canadian Provost Corps, Royal Canadian Artillery, General List - red flash.
	Royal Canadian Dental Corps, Canadian Intelligence Corps - green flash.
	Royal Canadian Army Chaplain's Corps - purple flash.

In about 1956, the coloured berets were officially replaced by navy blue forage caps with coloured bands.


Interesting reading. I would certainly not entertain the return of coloured flashes to denote the Corps/Branches, although the side hats that Edward Campbell keeps pushing seems to be a way of being different enough to appease the peacock in all of us and that pre-dates to the 1930s.
I'm retired now so I will never have to wear the new service uniform but I can keep stirring the pot

PS ... My service dress were the CF Greens which was replaced by the DEU Rifle Green and DEU Tans which eventually just became the DEU Rifle Green. I wore the Green beret.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Are blue (and green) patrol dress uniforms also in the mix?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Are blue (and green) patrol dress uniforms also in the mix?

Patrol Dress (No. 1 C/D) is authorized in the Canadian Army Dress Instructions as of 2022. Those items exist within the SAM for Public Duties functions, Ceremonial, and Bands with use of Public Funds. Members are also authorized to wear No 1C/Ds at personal expense for appropriate functions that would deem Patrols to be the appropriate Dress (I.e. Weddings).

 

[Edward Campbell]

Patrol Dress (No. 1 C/D) is authorized in the Canadian Army Dress Instructions as of 2022. Those items exist within the SAM for Public Duties functions, Ceremonial, and Bands with use of Public Funds. Members are also authorized to wear No 1C/Ds at personal expense for appropriate functions that would deem Patrols to be the appropriate Dress (I.e. Weddings).

But not compulsory (for officers and senior NCOs), yet? BTW, thanks for answering my various questions. I appreciate it.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Oh, and what about sticks and canes and riding crops for officers?

 

[Furniture]

Oh, and what about sticks and canes and riding crops for officers?

We aren't really allowed to talk about stuff like that at work or in the mess anymore...

 

[rmc_wannabe]

But not compulsory (for officers and senior NCOs), yet? BTW, thanks for answering my various questions. I appreciate it.

Not yet. That has not been ordered, however, we will see what happens.

From what I heard from the various channels is that patrols were brought up at Army Council back in 2019, Logistik was willing to produce and provide to members at a very reasonable cost (approx $250-450 per tunic) and it would be authorized Mess Dress for Snr NCOs and WOs who didn't feel like shelling out for a full mess kit.

Army SM at the time shot it down as a bad idea. Then we had a change of CCA and Army SM and now the train is rolling again, but now with a much higher price tag.

As for crops and sticks, I hope to God not. One more thing to do poorly in our modern Canadian Army.

There are quite a few of my sibling subalterns that went to the "good enough" school of Dress, Drill, and Deportment and it shows both in Staff work and appearance. My former chevrons may have bubbled under the surface a couple times on DP1 to "correct" that rather egregious error...

 

[Happy Guy]

We aren't really allowed to talk about stuff like that at work or in the mess anymore...

As a former NCO, it makes me shudder at the thought of having Officers fumble about trying to salute while carrying a riding crop or swagger stick. It was hard enough to get them to march properly and coordinate them to swing their arms without doing the bear walk.

 

[Blackadder1916]

As for crops and sticks, I hope to God not. One more thing to do poorly in our modern Canadian Army.

Sticks are not just for officers.



But was once a necessary implement of war.

 

[Kilted]

Sticks are not just for officers.

View attachment 80158

But was once a necessary implement of war.

Apparently swagger sticks were carried when off duty as part of their walking out uniform by other ranks prior to WWI.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Apparently swagger sticks were carried when off duty as part of their walking out uniform by other ranks prior to WWI.

Some background on swagger sticks, specifically carried by The RCR.

Swagger Sticks of The Royal Canadian Regiment

by Richard J S Law The significance of swagger sticks relates to that of staffs, batons, and riding crops denoting gentlemen of the upper class but also as a means to deliver immediate punishment t…

milart.blog

Further defined by the 1967 Regimental Standing Orders in Section 2, paragraph 202.14 – Sticks, the following details are provided:

a. All Officers will carry a swagger stick of dark Malacca cane with a silver ferrule and ball knob. Overall length will be 26 1/2 inches. The Regimental Crest will be mounted centrally on the top of the knob. When the stick is placed under the left arm the ferrule will be to the front.

b. All Warrant Officers will carry regulation Ordnance pattern pace sticks.

c. All Senior Non-commissioned Officers will carry a drill cane which will be sand coloured malacca. 33 inches long with a white metal ferrule and knob. Reproduction of the cap badge on the knob will be 7/8 inch in diameter. The ferrule will be 1 inch in diameter at the knob and taper to 3/4 inch at the ferrule.

d. Junior Non-commissioned Officers carry a swagger stick of Regimental pattern which will be 26 inches in length, a dark Malacca cane with white metal ferrule and knob. The Regimental cap badge 7/8 inch in size will be embossed centrally on the side of the knob. The knob will be I 3/4 inches in length, the ferrule 3/4 inch.

e. Sticks will not be carried on a Commanding Officer’s parade.

 

[FJAG]

In about 1956, the coloured berets were officially replaced by navy blue forage caps with coloured bands.

The beret was not fully replaced. We gunners continued to use the blue beret with the red backer behind the badge well into the end of the 1960s. In my particular regiment's case recruits wore the beret until gun layer qualified at which time they received the red banded blue forage cap, the white lanyard, the layer's trade badge and the artillery belt buckle. Field wear was either the combat hat or the FSOD cap with combats and FSODs respectively but still the beret with the battle dress in the field for winter dress. The forage cap was for everyday garrison wear.

Incidentally - here's a graphic example of how bad that large coloured patch on the beret looked.

b. All Warrant Officers will carry regulation Ordnance pattern pace sticks.

One note here - that refers to WO1s and 2s (ie CWO and MWOs) only. What is now a plain WO was formerly a staff sergeant who carried a drill cane as below. In those days artillery sergeants wore three chevrons with the gun crest above them. The staff sergeant had a crown over top of that.

c. All Senior Non-commissioned Officers will carry a drill cane which will be sand coloured malacca. 33 inches long with a white metal ferrule and knob. Reproduction of the cap badge on the knob will be 7/8 inch in diameter. The ferrule will be 1 inch in diameter at the knob and taper to 3/4 inch at the ferrule.

All the ones I ever saw were sword canes at the time which nowadays probably breaks a whole lot of laws on blade length and concealed weapon.

d. Junior Non-commissioned Officers carry a swagger stick of Regimental pattern which will be 26 inches in length, a dark Malacca cane with white metal ferrule and knob. The Regimental cap badge 7/8 inch in size will be embossed centrally on the side of the knob. The knob will be I 3/4 inches in length, the ferrule 3/4 inch.

I remember getting my swagger stick when I was promoted bombardier (the old army equivalent of what is now a master bombardier) It was like getting a centurion's vine staff as a symbol of authority.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I remember getting my swagger stick when I was promoted bombardier (the old army equivalent of what is now a master bombardier) It was like getting a centurion's vine staff as a symbol of authority.

Perhaps the best comment about "swagger sticks" and the endowment of those who carry them was made by Gen. David Shoup, the newly appointed Commandant of the Marine Corps in 1960.

Marine Corps University > Research > Marine Corps History Division > Frequently Requested Topics > Historical Documents, Orders and Speeches > Swagger Stick

In general I feel that a clean, neat, well-fitted uniform with the Marine Corps emblem is tops. There is no need for gimmicks and gadgets.

With respect to equipment we should emphasize simplicity, ruggedness and ease of maintenance. And in design and gadgetry the characteristics we demand should be a pattern of the necessary rather than the ideal. We shall continue to strive to obtain in a timely manner the best possible combat equipment

There is one item of equipment about which I have a definite opinion. It is the swagger stick. It shall remain an optional item of interference. If you feel the need of it, carry it…

Apparently the number of Marines who felt the need for swagger sticks in the USMC decreased significantly afterwards (the Jack Webb movie "The D.I.", in which he carried one, predated Gen Shoup's remarks - the producers of another much later movie which featured a Marine DI apparently weren't aware that even the optional use of sticks had been banned by the time they made their movie). But there were still those in other services at that time who "clung" to the practice.