Worth achieving higher NCM rank before going officer?

[George Wallace]

George...every CFR is commissioned in the same manner...and this is reflected on the commissioning scroll.

Now you have me wondering.  I will have to look, unless someone else does first, but is there even a "rank" specified on the Commissioning Scroll?  It specifies that the named person is "hereby appointed an officer in Her Majesty's Canadian Forces". 

 

[old fart]

Not so - his comment suggested that CFRed Sgts and MWOs get appointed to - but don't get promoted past - Lt and Capt respectively. That just ain't so. He may be thinking of the (now defunct) Limited Duty Officer programme, where CWOs were made into Capts without phase training in any particular trade, usually a year or two before retirement.

That being said, some formations won't promote past Capt without a university degree of some kind. If your CFRed MWO didn't have one, then he wouldn't have been eligible for promotion to Maj - but not because of CFAO 11-9.

I never read into his comment any inference to a rank ceiling merely rank on commissioning.  "As a Sergeant and WO you only go to Lt, it is only MWO and above that become Captains"...that is the aspect I was qualifying here. 

I do do have some experience with this aspect...I went the same route in Jan 98...and have moved others down the same stove pipe.

 

[old fart]

Now you have me wondering.  I will have to look, unless someone else does first, but is there even a "rank" specified on the Commissioning Scroll?  It specifies that the named person is "hereby appointed an officer in Her Majesty's Canadian Forces".

I'm not going to scan my own scroll....but I did just go and check...it is as I have said...

 

[SeaKingTacco]

My scroll says that I am to "discharge my duty as such in the rank of Second Lieutenant" (I'm looking at it right now).  So yeah, the commissioning scroll appoints you to a specific rank initially.

 

[Rowshambow]

Thanks Old Fart,for the support and not reading more than I put in.
Vern I DO know what I am talking about. As I said it is a route I have chose, and so have a few of my WO and MWO friends, so I am quite in my lane on this one. I never said they could not go higher in rank, all I was stating that some of the info previously given was wrong, someone posted saying WO goes right to Capt which is untrue! Thanks and zip it right back at ya!

 

[Journeyman]

Regardless of whether one chooses to be an NCM or an Officer, pick your route sooner rather than later.

Get in the requisite leadership/commissioning courses ASAP because there is a demographic bubble coming wherein there are going to be a lot of retirements based on currently serving member's 'best before' date.

Two Reserve COs have been told by the CLS to "move on" so that younger officers can move up to gain experience prior to this impending forced exodus.

Whether you want a commission or prefer to work more directly with troops as an NCM -- both paths equally honourable -- in the words of that wise philosopher Dr Frankenfurter (from the Rocky Horror Picture Show), "don't dream it; be it."

I'll zip it now too 

 

[Drummy]

Hi,

Question for the masses. I've seen a couple of posts in this thread that said one had to be a Sgt or at least MCpl to be CFR'd. Could I ask when this started.

My son was CFR'd from Pte to 2Lt in 1984

Thanks  Drummy

 

[MJP]

Hi,

Question for the masses. I've seen a couple of posts in this thread that said one had to be a Sgt or at least MCpl to be CFR'd. Could I ask when this started.

My son was CFR'd from Pte to 2Lt in 1984

Thanks  Drummy

Was he a reservist?  I've seen guys come in as NCMs and then due to potential/need of the unit asked if they wanted to become officers.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Here is CFAO 11-9 in its entierty.

CFAO 11-9 -- COMMISSIONING FROM THE RANKS PLAN



PURPOSE
1.    This order prescribes the policy and procedures for the Commissioning
From the Ranks Plan (CFRP).

GENERAL
2.    The purpose of the CFRP is to provide a source of officers for the
Regular Force to augment the number of officers commissioned through other
plans.
3.    It cannot be over-stressed that the CFRP applies exclusively to those
who have acquired a level of military experience and, above all, are
considered to possess the necessary personal qualities to make them
suitable for employment as officers. Technical or administrative competence
alone is no guarantee that an individual has the characteristics needed to
become a successful officer, other qualities such as the desire and ability
to lead, mature judgement, personal integrity, breadth of outlook and
interests, and demonstrated motivation for continuing personal growth are
essential. Commanding officers (COs) will have their own opinions on
officer-like qualities: they must identify these qualities in individual
nominees and describe them fully in CFRP recommendation narratives.
4.    The CFRP is a nomination programme in the literal sense; members are
not invited to apply for commissioning. The onus is on the CO to identify
potential nominees through personal knowledge or the advice of unit
officers, and to observe their performance over a substantial period with a
view to nomination when the annual programme is announced by NDHQ. Nothing
less will ensure that the best available nominees are brought forward in a
given year. To this end, COs are further encouraged to chair local boards
to ensure that only the most highly qualified and deserving nominees are
fully processed in accordance with paragraphs ll, 12, and 13. The minimum
requirement for COs is to acquaint themselves with the case of every
nominee under their command, and to personally sign the Commanding
Officer's Letter of Recommendation, found in Annex A.

ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS
5.    To be eligible for nomination under the CFRP a member shall:
    a.  be a Canadian citizen;

    b.  have a minimum of 10 years service in the Canadian Forces (CF)
          Regular Force by the closing date for nomination;

    c.  be of the substantive rank of sergeant (Sgt)/petty officer second
          class (P02) or above;

    d.  have at least the minimum required years of service remaining to
          compulsory retirement age (CRA) for the proposed officer military
          occupation classification (MOC) by 31 Dec of the year in which
          the selection board is convened. This minimum number of years
          will be specified in the annual competition message;

    e.  for the appropriate officer MOC have a minimum medical category
          awarded/confirmed within the 12 months prior to the closing date
          for nomination;

    f.  achieve acceptable standing in the General Classification (GC)
          test administered by the Base Personnel Selection Officer (BPSO);

    g.  possess a Grade 12 diploma (Secondary V in Quebec) or an
          equivalency certificate based on education equivalency testing;
          and

    h.  if a MARE 44 nominee, provide proof of acceptance to a sub-MOC
          approved technology programme at an institution identified below;

          (1)  MARE 44B(MS) -- institution(s) will be specified in the
              annual competition message,

          (2)  MARE 44C(CS) -- Camosun College (Pre MORPS only), and

          (3)  MARE 44D(NC) -- Fisheries and Marine Institute of Memorial
              University of Newfoundland.

6.    Where nominees are in the process of upgrading their academic
qualifications, and successful completion of the planned programme will
provide them with the minimum qualifications by 31 Jul of the year of
nomination, they may be nominated for consideration by the NDHQ selection
board. However, proof of having attained the required academic level must
be forwarded to NDHQ/DPCA (Director Personnel Career Administration) before
selectees will be authorized to attend basic or indoctrination officer
training.

7.    Nominees must belong to a MOC closely aligned with the officer MOC for
which they are nominated, or have extensive training, experience or
educational qualifications directly related to that MOC. Annex A to 2-10,
Personnel Branches Within the Canadian Forces, is the basis for
determining the appropriate officer MOC.

8.    The Basic Officer Training Course (BOTC) is physically demanding and
requires selectees to pass the survival swimming test described in 50-4,
Aquatics and Water Safety. Selectees are therefore advised to
undertake a rigorous physical conditioning programme.

NOMINATION9.    Annually, NDHQ will promulgate, by message, the opening and closing
dates of the CFRP as well as additional information germane to the
competition.
10.    All nominations shall be processed by the nearest BPSO. At units where
there is no BPSO, personnel selection services are provided in accordance
with Annexes A and B to 2-3, Personnel Selection Officers-Duties and
Responsibilities.


NOMINATION PROCEDURES11.    CFRP nomination procedures are as follows:
    a.  should preliminary screening indicate that a member meets the
          eligibility requirements enumerated in paragraph 5 and is in all
          respects a suitable and willing nominee, the CO initiates
          processing as follows:

          (1)  completes Parts 1 and 2 of the Commanding Officer's Letter
              of Recommendation in Annex A,

          (2)  has the member complete and sign the Statement of
              Understanding in Annex B,

          (3)  where applicable, has the member complete the Consent to
              Serve form in Annex A tb 10-3, Liability to Serve --
              Consent, in the affirmative,

          (4)  has the member provide documentary proof of education, and

          (5)  forwards the above documents together with the member's unit
              personal file (UPF) and a non-returnable photocopy of form
              CF 743, Unit Employment Record (UER) and Personal Record
              Resume (PRR), to the nearest BPSO;

    b.  the BPSO shall screen these documents to confirm the member's
          eligibility, and then arrange an appointment with the member
          through the member's unit. On completion of BPSO testing and
          interview, a Personnel Selection Report, form CF 285, on each
          nominee who meets all the requirements of paragraph 5 shall be
          forwarded to the CO who will consider it before completing Part 3
          of Annex A;

    c.  the unit shall send the following documents to NDHQ/DPCA:

          (1)  11-9, Annex A, Parts 1, 2 and 3,

          (2)  11-9, Annex B,

          (3)  10-3, Annex A, if required,

          (4)  documentary proof of education, and

          (5)  form CF 285;




Note -- For MARS and MARE nominees, special instructions for distribution
of documentation are included in the annual competition message;

    d.  BPSOs shall inform COs of those who cannot be fully processed
          because of failure to meet eligibility standards. In such cases
          the BPSO shall inform the member of any deficiencies and, where
          practicable, advise on steps whereby the standards could be met
          in the future. COs shall be apprised of the advice given; and

    e.  nominees will be considered only for the specific annual
          programme for which they are nominated. Those not selected may,
          if still eligible, be nominated by a CO in any subsequent year.
          Full processing and documentation in accordance with
          subparagraphs a, b and c are required for each re-nomination.

12.    A MARS or MARE nominee will be interviewed by a Maritime Command Naval
Interview Board (NIB). Details regarding NIB processing will be announced
in the annual competition message.

13.    The CO's role in the selection process is vitally important. Every
effort shall be made to provide substantial comments to assist the CFRP
Selection Board in evaluating the true potential of each nominee. COs shall
endeavour to extrapolate from a nominee's demonstrated performance and
personal qualities, the nominee's potential capability as an officer and,
more particularly, as an officer in the proposed MOC. In the absence of
such comments, the Board may assume that the nominee has relatively low
officer potential in comparison with others whose potential is well
substantiated. If conflicting viewpoints arise between the CO and the BPSO,
such differences shall be accepted. Each has an opportunity to substantiate
the recommendation made. All documents receive close attention during the
final selection stage.

SELECTION14.    A CFRP Selection Board will be convened annually at NDHQ to review all
nominations and select the best nominees to meet the various officer MOC
quotas. Selection criteria are based on performance and an assessment of
potential. Nominees will be advised, through their CO, of their selection
status as soon as board results are available.
CONDITIONS OF SERVICE15.    Consent to Serve. All members commissioned by authority of this order
shall be available for unrestricted employment throughout the CF;
therefore, the Consent to Serve in Annex A to 10-3 shall be completed
in the affirmative by any nominee who was serving prior to 1 Feb 68. Those
not selected for commissioning will be automatically released from this
Consent to Serve.

16.    Superseded by ADM(HR-Mil) Instruction 05/05

17.    Commissioning and Promotion. Members who successfully satisfy the
requirements for commissioning will be commissioned and promoted in
accordance with 11-6, Commissioning and Promotion Policy -- Officers -
-Regular Force.

18.    Basic Officer Training. Chief warrant officers (CWO)/chief petty
officers first class (CPO1), master warrant officers (MWO)/chief petty
officers second class (CPO2) and those warrant officers/petty officers
first class (WO/PO1) who are Senior Leader Course (SLC) qualified must
successfully complete CFRP/BOTC -- Part 2 -- Officer Indoctrination Course
(OIC). All other selectees first must complete successfully CFRP/ BOTC-Part
1 and then successfully complete CFRP/BOTC -- Part 2 -- OIC. Form CF 377,
Course Report shall be completed in accordance with 26-12, Canadian
Forces Course Reporting System.

19.    The Commandant Canadian Forces Officer Candidate School (CFOCS) shall
return to unit (RTU) any member who:

    a.  submits a written request to withdraw from training;

    b.  becomes medically unfit; or

    c.  is a training failure.

Note -- NDHQ/DPCA shall be informed of any such RTU.

20.    Post-commissioning Training. After commissioning, officers may be
given follow-on training appropriate to their officer MOC.

TRAINING FAILURES21.    If during or on completion of BOTC Part 1 or Part 2, a member is RTU
in accordance with paragraph 19, the member may be released and re-enrolled
in the former rank and non-commissioned member (NCM) MOC. The pay and
seniority granted normally will be the same as that to which the member
could have expected to advance had the commissioning training not occurred.
22.    CFRP officers who are given post-commissioning training in accordance
with paragraph 20 and who fail to meet the requirements of the basic
specification for their officer MOC will be governed by the policy and
procedures prescribed in 9-1, Officer Classification Training --
Commissioned Officers -- Disposal of Unsuitable Candidates. In addition to
the possible dispositions contained in that order, the member may be
released and re-enrolled in his/her former rank and NCM MOC. In the latter
case, the pay and seniority granted normally will be the same as that to
which the member could have been expected to advance had commissioning
training not occurred.
Note -- Members are cautioned that in the event of re-enrolment they will
be subject to the terms of service applicable at the time of re-enrolment.
This could affect CRA, eligibility to serve in all environments and TOS.
EMPLOYMENT23.    The employment of officers, commissioned under this plan, will be
related to their individual qualifications.
PUBLICITY24.    This order shall be publicized at least once each quarter by means of
the following Routine Order entry:
    Commissioning From the Ranks Plan (CFRP). The attention of all
    officers is drawn to 11-9 concerning their responsibility to
    identify, observe and nominate potential candidates for the CFRP.


(C)                                    1605-11-9 (DGMC)

Issued 1994-12-02

 

[ltmaverick25]

Yes, I do know several soldiers who are trying to commission, whose Chain of Command do not support them.  As I, nor you, are privy to their reasons, we should not second guess them.  I, for the most part, have faith that the Chain of Command is making the right decisions.

I find it morally and ethically repugnant that some NCOs, who could not make it as Junior Leaders, allow their egos and feelings of self-importance to cloud their minds and make them think that they can bypass their Chain of Command and connive their way into a position that they probably shouldn’t.  I find it dishonest to go through the “backdoor” in the search for personal gain. 

I have seen many NCOs who couldn’t become MCpls, go the officer route.  Most turned out to be weak, impotent officers, many becoming nothing more than Career Captains.  I suppose that is a little better than being Career Cpls, where they were destined to be.  At the same time I have seen the same of ROTP officers, who ended their 25-30 year military careers as a Career Capt.  The system does work this way.

That being said, I have also seen NCOs, who with the blessings of their Chain of Command, successfully pass officer training and become excellent leaders.

In the end it boils down to whether or not the person you face in the mirror every morning is what you want to be.  Your troops decide very quickly who you are.  They are the ones who really decide your fate.

I dont think that chosing to join as an officer right off the street can be considered going through the back door, which is the point that I was trying to make.  If someone wants to be an officer, they should just do it, and initiate it right away instead of joining as an NCM first if their intention all along was to commission.  My other example of CTing directly as an officer also cannot be considered going through the back door.  In fact, I am not aware of any "back door" methods of becoming an officer in the CF...

But I digress, if you want to be an officer, be an officer, if you want to be an NCM, be an NCM.  Dont try to be both.  If you do go NCM first, be prepared for a lengthy, difficult administrative process.  In addition to this, some may have to deal with units that do not move on such requests, nor place a high priority on them.  Regardless of what some here may feel about it, it is a reality in more then one unit.

 

[George Wallace]

I dont think that chosing to join as an officer right off the street can be considered going through the back door, which is the point that I was trying to make. 

???

What are you talking about now?  You were talking about NCOs who were contemplating officer and not being supported by their C o C.  Where did coming off the street and using a backdoor suddenly enter this equation?  A person who choose to enter the CF as an officer is not what we are talking about here.  We were discussing the NCO; someone already in the CF.

Don't wander off on a tangent.

 

[Sonnyjim]

I can relate to this situation in that I do have a university degree and was pushed into becoming an officer at the recruitment centre. However, I decided to gain the experience of an NCM before going into officership. I knew that I was taking a risk doing this because of many reasons that have already been mentioned here, especially the whole idea of having to earn it rather than just walking in with a university degree and being given the opportunity off the street(again 100% nothing wrong with this in the least, as George said you still have to pass the course), but I thought that the experience would be invaluable in the big picture. I never mentioned anything at work and have always done my best without being a suckup, strived to be my best, and tried to earn the respect of my peers, and it was a while after I arrived that they realized I had a university degree as well and put 2/2 together. Nothing is set in stone and I don't know what the future holds but I am personally glad that I have gone NCM before and will have the experience of a tour before I go to the officer route.

   

 

[George Wallace]

Sonnyjim

Looks like you have put a lot of thought into your career plans and it looks realist and sound.  There are many NCMs these days with Degrees, and they are florishing in their Trades.

Best of luck.

 

[ltmaverick25]

???

What are you talking about now?  You were talking about NCOs who were contemplating officer and not being supported by their C o C.  Where did coming off the street and using a backdoor suddenly enter this equation?  A person who choose to enter the CF as an officer is not what we are talking about here.  We were discussing the NCO; someone already in the CF.

Don't wander off on a tangent.

You are the one who brought up the notion of officers joining through the back door.  I was merely retorting your points.  And if you want to talk about tangents I would respectfully suggest you check your previous post - THAT is a tangent.

Insofar as the current thread is concerned; the question was, how long should one stay an NCM for or what rank should one achieve before attempting to commission.  My response all along is that if you want to commission you should do so right at the beginning of your career instead of waiting.  I outlined the possible difficulties with the CoC as one example of potential hurdles one may encounter when trying to commission from the ranks.  I mentioned this, as well as other hurdles to support my contention that one should commission right away if that is their desired end state.

 

[armyvern]

Thanks Old Fart,for the support and not reading more than I put in.
Vern I DO know what I am talking about. As I said it is a route I have chose, and so have a few of my WO and MWO friends, so I am quite in my lane on this one. I never said they could not go higher in rank, all I was stating that some of the info previously given was wrong, someone posted saying WO goes right to Capt which is untrue! Thanks and zip it right back at ya!

Two friends of mine in the past 6 months have been comissioned as Captains (both were WOs, but held the requisite courses - 1 holds a degree)- neither had to do phase trg; another of my friends - a CWO who is appointed into a formation posn, will be CFRing to Major in the near future. Now, may they (the Capts) have been 2Lts on paper for 1.5 seconds - that's possible I guess, but that's not what they received their pay as so is entirely misleading.

New rules out there on the streets over the past year or so (and some near-future changes coming too) ladies and gents.

OP: GO see the BPSO.

 

[old fart]

You are the one who brought up the notion of officers joining through the back door.  I was merely retorting your points.  And if you want to talk about tangents I would respectfully suggest you check your previous post - THAT is a tangent.

Insofar as the current thread is concerned; the question was, how long should one stay an NCM for or what rank should one achieve before attempting to commission.  My response all along is that if you want to commission you should do so right at the beginning of your career instead of waiting.  I outlined the possible difficulties with the CoC as one example of potential hurdles one may encounter when trying to commission from the ranks.  I mentioned this, as well as other hurdles to support my contention that one should commission right away if that is their desired end state.

Here is my 6 cents..from one who was offered and did accept a commission in the CF.  I spent the best part of 20 years in the ranks.  I never joined thinking of becoming an officer, that did not occur until I was asked..the decision was not an easy one for me..as I my aspirations on the NCM side were still a work in progress (aspirations that clearly would likely have been fulfilled based on information provided at my COs interview).  I made my decision jumped to the dark side...all things considered it has worked out.

I have commanded at the Troop level, been s Sqn 2IC, a Regt Ops Officer, fortunate to get a 4 year Exchange posting and commanded at the Sqn level; not bad for someone with NO degree, but I am bilingual in that I speak Canadian and the Queen's English

In many respects I agree with your premise that if from the onset you want to serve as commissioned officer then apply to do so at the start of your career.....once your in and turn out to be a pile of shite...you will and rightly so never get the chance under any commissioning plan.  So joining to gain valuable NCM experience may backfire on your grand strategy.

For the vast majority joining and undertaking officer training at the beginning of ones career is certainly and very obviously the norm...but the door is firmly open should you attempt the UTPNCM route or be offered the opportunity to CFR at a later and likely unexpected stage.

Old fart... :yellow:

 

[Drummy]

Was he a reservist?  I've seen guys come in as NCMs and then due to potential/need of the unit asked if they wanted to become officers.
[Hi/quote]

Hi,

No, he was regular force Infantry. (1RCR)

Drummy

 

[vizering]

I'm back. Just completed SQ as a reserve. Next summer I will do a trade course + something else or apply for officer training.

So what is the main difference in the nature of work of NCM and officers? (trades I'm looking at now are infantry and armored).

Second, can either inf/armor and ncm/officer both take para courses and combat diving courses?

 

[Roy Harding]

Some old thoughts - which I lifted from here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/32385/post-237237.html#msg237237

The choice of becoming an NCM first, then CFRing to Log(Fin) Officer is perhaps appealing, it enables you to get "hands on", prior to becoming a policy maker.  I would caution you thus, however, in my experience, CFR officers were either OUTSTANDING or ABYSMAL officers.  There didn't seem to be a middle ground where they were just "OK".

The outstanding ones seemed to be able to assimilate their prior hands on experience and know what was "doable" and what was not.  They knew what their troops were capable of (even when the troops themselves did not), and were able to demand and receive the best from those troops.  They were (and I imagine still are) amazing people - unfortunately, they seem to have been in the minority of CFRs that I met over my career.

The abysmal ones were of two sorts - those who CFRd from the Junior Ranks, and saw their new position as an opportunity for "pay back" on Sr NCOs/WOs, and those who CFRd from Sr NCO/WO rank and never forgot it - although they were wearing officer ranks, they continued to attempt to perform the Sr NCO/WO function - not a great way to run an Army.

So - if you are willing to take the chance of NOT being employed in a "hard finance" slot, and then take your chances regarding which type of officer you'll turn out to be, then enrol as an RMS Clk.  IFF, on the other hand, finance is your hearts desire (and judging by your qualifications and statements made in your original posting), then I strongly suggest you listen to your Career Counsellor (is that what they call recruiters these days??), and wait for the Log(Fin) slot to come open for you.

Again - it's YOUR decision, but don't make the mistake of thinking that Jr Ranks, Sr NCO/WOs, and Officers are different "levels" on the same continuum.  That may hold true for Jr Ranks and Sr NCO/WOs - to a certain extent - but an Officer is NOT simply a tradesmen with a university degree - their function is different - and the transition from OR to Offr is fraught with difficulties.

Roy

 

[Blackadder1916]

Hi,

Question for the masses. I've seen a couple of posts in this thread that said one had to be a Sgt or at least MCpl to be CFR'd. Could I ask when this started.

My son was CFR'd from Pte to 2Lt in 1984

Thanks  Drummy

It is highly unlikely that he was “CFRed” but more likely that he was commissioned under the Officer Candidate Training Plan (OCTP).  OCTP is no longer but it could be considered the predecessor of CEOTP (similar prerequisites and available MOCs; open to both serving Reg Force and civilians; the main difference being no regulated requirement to obtain a degree with OCTP). 

I was commissioned under OCTP(M) however have often been mistakenly identified as a “CFR” by those who didn’t know all the circumstances of my career.  When I took the plunge (same era as your son) the other OCTP(M) candidates with me at BOTC (and later in Gagetown) ranged from (previously) private to sergeant.  In fact, there were more ex-sergeants (3) than ex-privates (2).  Most had been corporals or master corporals  (or in one case MS).  The ex-sergeants could possibly (eventually) have been CFRed but had less than 10 years service when they applied for OCTP(M) plus it seemed to be generally accepted back then that only rarely were infantry sergeants CFRed; usually one had to be at least a WO.  One of the ex-sergeants on my course (if the scuttlebutt about him was correct and I tend to believe it) even accepted OCTP though he had been informed that his promotion to WO would be effective a couple of weeks after he began BOTC.