World Religions: Statistics, Respect and Selecting a Faith

[Rodahn]

My sole question is...

Why is religion being discussed in a political thread?

Edit: Disregard my last.....

 

[Richie]

Whether or not someone gets their kids baptised is a personal decision. 
As for saying "I'm leaving the choice to my child", that is a cop out.  Do you allow your children to choose how to behave in public?  Do you allow your children to choose between right and wrong on their own, or do they come up with their own moral code?  Do you allow your children to choose what foods to eat? A parent's role is not to simply make sure that their children survive to the age of 18.  A parent's role is to raise their children according to how the parents believe they should be raised.  Baptism or not is a personal choice, but I would argue that the choice is up to the parents and not the child.

Obviously parents have an obligation to raise their child in a moral environment; to produce at the end of those first eighteen years a Human Being with a strong sense of right and wrong. If the parents believe that this can be done by a religious upbringing including baptism it's the parents' choice.  However once their child is old enough to make his or her own choices about religion, then the parents should respect the choice their child makes. The child may decide to renounce baptism or simply ignore it. Being a moral individual is in no way contingent on being a religious individual; the parents may have to come to respect that as well.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I would say that leaving that choice to the child is the right thing to do.  The reason I say that is because I will always advocate free will.  Is the choice to believe yours or your child's?  To me that is the question you and your wife should answer.

We are in my opinion far too often slaves of tradition. All tradition.

Just my two cents.

That's right, and I suppose you would leave the child to change their own diaper as well.

In fact do you allow them to shop for their own groceries, clothing, and such.

How about a school, when they were four did you sit them down and give them choices in the area to go to?  Or better yet when they began to learn to speak did you give them the option to choose what language they spoke?

Let's get real, as  a parent it is my responsibility to raise them until they are adults, in the best way that I know.  My way.  After they are responsible enough to make their own decision, by all means they are not bound by that religion and choose to do what they wish.

Maybe you should really look at what your beliefs are, is it that there is no higher being, or the fact that you despise organize religion?

dileas

tess

 

[Reccesoldier]

That's right, and I suppose you would leave the child to change their own diaper as well.

In fact do you allow them to shop for their own groceries, clothing, and such.

How about a school, when they were four did you sit them down and give them choices in the area to go to?  Or better yet when they began to leanr to speak did you give them the option to choose what language they spoke?

Let's get real, as  a parent it is my responsabilty to raise them until they are adults, in the best way that I know.  My way.  After they are responsible enough to make their own descision, by all means they are not bound by that religion and choose to do what they wish.

Already answered these kinds of straw man arguments.

No it isn't.


I teach my children, which is not the same as denying them a choice.

Selecting a religion for a child is not equivalent to teaching between right and wrong.  My children will not be ostracized by society for not having a religion forced on them like they would be if I were to fail to teach them acceptable moral behaviour.  My children will not become sick because I didn’t force them to be baptized.

MR, the difference between the points of your argument and the compulsion of being baptized is that the straw men you set up were all requirements of survival in a societal framework or conversely biological imperatives and therefore taught out of necessity.  Baptism is neither.

Maybe you should really look at what your beliefs are, is it that there is no higher being, or the fact that you despise organize religion?

dileas

tess

Why do people insist that my disbelief is founded in hatred? 

I invite anyone to show a single instance where I have espoused hate for religion. Until that can be done then all such comments are nothing more than useless pontification by those who can not argue the subject without trying to intimidate, besmirch my character or misrepresent my position.

Basically I’m asking you to prove your premise that I hate religion.  I will answer any and all questions you wish to ask and all my posts are open for your dissection.  Bring it on.

 

[Greymatters]

Obviously parents have an obligation to raise their child in a moral environment; to produce at the end of those first eighteen years a Human Being with a strong sense of right and wrong. If the parents believe that this can be done by a religious upbringing including baptism it's the parents' choice.  However once their child is old enough to make his or her own choices about religion, then the parents should respect the choice their child makes. The child may decide to renounce baptism or simply ignore it. Being a moral individual is in no way contingent on being a religious individual; the parents may have to come to respect that as well.

Thats an assumption based on a responsible parent model.  Take a look around and you will see a lot of children around the world being parented by people who shouldnt be allowed to have kids, or once having them fail to take adequate responsibility for them. 

 

[the 48th regulator]

Already answered these kinds of straw man arguments.
Why do people insist that my disbelief is founded in hatred? 

I invite anyone to show a single instance where I have espoused hate for religion. Until that can be done then all such comments are nothing more than useless pontification by those who can not argue the subject without trying to intimidate, besmirch my character or misrepresent my position.

Basically I’m asking you to prove your premise that I hate religion.  I will answer any and all questions you wish to ask and all my posts are open for your dissection.  Bring it on.

Yes because your sugar coated way of criticising the way we practice our beliefs is so well done it will be hard to find evidence of your angle.

You don't believe in a higher being, good on you, but you constantly respond to anyone's post with, I would not do that, not me I believe in free will.

Insinuating, those that practice a religion don't.

Nice try Rece, fish all you want.

dileas

tess

 

[Yrys]

Religious people may belief that human have free will from God.

But aren't they not allowing their children their own free will when they raised them in their own religion?

I'm not saying not to educate the child towards one own religion, but automatically having them pass
religious rites of the parents religion, because they think it's the truth and only possible way.

Before I had my confirmation, way back when, my mom ask me if I wanted to. I didn't fell any king of :
"it's the only thing possible to do", which, I think, make me more conscious of what I was doing.

Everybody as an angle, as everybody that pot is human, and has opinions, Reccesoldier as well as the 48th regulator.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Yes because your sugar coated way of criticising the way we practice our beliefs is so well done it will be hard to find evidence of your angle.

 So I'm a troll now?  Nice, still not proof, just more "sugar coated" mud slinging.

You don't believe in a higher being, good on you, but you constantly respond to anyone's post with, I would not do that, not me I believe in free will.

Insinuating, those that practice a religion don't.

Nice try Rece, fish all you want.

dileas

tess

Tess I responded to a poster who ASKED for opinions.  In my world opinions are usually accompanied by beliefs, and one is useless without the other.  Or are you saying that my lack of belief in a supreme being precludes me from having an opinion?

Your misinterpretation of my comment about free will is probably an honest one.  My point in that case is that a child who's parents select a religion for him aren't allowing him to freely choose or not according to his will/a rational decision on his part/needs/accuired beliefs.

 

[the 48th regulator]

  So I'm a troll now?  Nice, still not proof, just more "sugar coated" mud slinging.

Tess I responded to a poster who ASKED for opinions.  In my world opinions are usually accompanied by beliefs, and one is useless without the other.  Or are you saying that my lack of belief in a supreme being precludes me from having an opinion?

Your misinterpretation of my comment about free will is probably an honest one.  My point in that case is that a child who's parents select a religion for him aren't allowing him to freely choose or not according to his will/a rational decision on his part/needs/accuired beliefs.

Your lack of belief of a supreme being does not preclude you to an opinion, however, that right to an opinion does not give you the right to say a religious path is a wrong path in that it does not proscribe to free will.

Then I will admit fault, when you made the comment about free will I felt it alluded to the fact that I did not accept the free will of man.


dileas

tess

 

[Greymatters]

My point in that case is that a child who's parents select a religion for him aren't allowing him to freely choose or not according to his will/a rational decision on his part/needs/accuired beliefs.

On this point I would add that selecting a religion is a parent's choice, just as they select a place to live in, a school to attend, or sports to compete in for their children.  Its not free will, but there must be a starting point somewhere, and exposing children to the belief system of the parents is one way to start, with the understanding that the child has the choice to say no later on if they dont like it.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Your lack of belief of a supreme being does not preclude you to an opinion, however, that right to an opinion does not give you the right to say a religious path is a wrong path does not proscribe to free will.

I never said it was the wrong path. 

Then I will admit fault, when you made the comment about free will I felt it alluded to the fact that I did not accept the free will of man.


dileas

tess

No problem, crap happens.

 

[Yrys]

a religious path is a wrong path in that it does not proscribe to free will.

I'm not sure if it's because I want my bed, but I don't understand that part of your sentence.
Could you rephrase, please ? (Is rephrase English?)

 

[McG]

This argument is getting silly, and the tone is getting sharper than is needed.  

If one has strong religious beliefs and is of the conviction that baptism (or other religious rites of initiation) are essential to human spiritual development (or spiritual protection or spiritual survival or whatever), well then that person will ensure their children pass these milestones.  As part of their religious belief, this is looking after the child in the best way possible; failing to do this would be as irresponsible as not teaching a child to keep of the street while playing.

For an Atheist (or even one from a religion without any such initiation) it would be very easy to adopt a position of letting the children decide when older.   For these parents, there is no belief in the child being harmed during (and as a result of) the waiting period prior to the child being able to make the decision.  

Reccesoldier,
I don’t think you are trolling, and I generally agree with your opinions on fair religious treatment when it comes to adults.  However, I think you need to recognize that quite often religious belief includes guidance on raising of children, and parents should be free to exercise that element of their religion.  

 

[Flip]

On the subject of free will.

In my (Christian) faith, it's required.

Mom is Catholic, we were all raised Methodist.  When I got to high school I became a baptist.  As a kid I didn't care for church and didn't know anything about it.
As a high-school aged baptist I was baptised again- by my own choice as the baptists believe in free choice when you are old enough to choose.  For us, baptism is a public declaration of faith. Doesn't count as much as when you are an infant. 

So there it is - my parents gave me a framework and example.
My own free will did the rest.

I can understand that being raised in an orthodox community can be stifling for some and I can agree that how you are raised doesn't necessarily dictate how you end up.
The "raised by a village" framework is useful.
The "let him figure it out" option often leads to people looking for religion after their lives have come apart at the seems and they can't figure it out.

Just my opinion.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I'm not sure if it's because I want my bed, but I don't understand that part of your sentence.
Could you rephrase, please ? (Is rephrase English?)

Read the whole sentence.  In fact follow the complete exchange between Reccesoldier and I.

dileas

tess

 

[X-mo-1979]

For an Atheist (or even one from a religion without any such initiation) it would be very easy to adopt a position of letting the children decide when older.   For these parents, there is no belief in the child being harmed during (and as a result of) the waiting period prior to the child being able to make the decision.  

I agree.However I am not an atheist....I'm more undecided. I respect Anyone's right to baptise their child and live by the moral code of the bible.And actually even though I'm not religious at this time I believe most everyone in Canada has been influenced by Christian values to a certain degree,as most of our parents and grandparents held religion very important.So even though we do not raise some children as Christan (IE my child) he still does not swear,please and thank you and respect are very important,treat others as though you would want to be treated etc.

I just couldn't baptise a child into a religion that  I myself was undecided on.If it was my belief I most likely would have.But now he has the choice.

I think my child is a well rounded,very mannerly little guy.And seems happy enough.He is very loved I know that!And if he ever asks about church I would gladly take him.And if he ever decided to get baptised I would fully support him in anything he does. I never would talk down upon him for his belief's,as religion and being here on earth is a totally personal thing.And it all boils down to the main rule I have in life "what ever makes you happy/improves your life".

And thanks for the responses!I value everyone's right to believe what they wish.

I think we are ALL just trying to raise our children the best way we can.

Respect your elders!(I.E dad has the best info...cause he most likely messed it up at your age as well!)

 

[Reccesoldier]

For what seems like the millionth time I am not trying to tell anyone what to do, only to tell what I have done.

I have 2 children.  

When I moved to Ottawa from Pet the closest High School to my new home was a Catholic School.  I asked my eldest if she wanted to go to that school, she agreed, rather than take a 30 minute bus ride to the nearest secular school.  She attended services and received religious instruction.  I didn't/don't care, it was her choice. If she had wished to become a full blown Catholic and be baptised as such I would have gone to that and any other equally as important ceremony as a parent should.  

My youngest was given the same choice when it came time.  She chose the bus ride.

My point in revealing this is only to illustrate that the misrepresentation of me as some sort of atheistic animal with a visceral hatered of all things religious is patently false.

 

[Richie]

Thats an assumption based on a responsible parent model.  Take a look around and you will see a lot of children around the world being parented by people who shouldnt be allowed to have kids, or once having them fail to take adequate responsibility for them. 

Agreed. There are a lot of people who should not be parents in the first place, I see them everyday. Yes, there was an implied assumption in my previous post, perhaps I just extrapolated from my own upbringing. My parents were strict but not to the point that I felt in any way restricted in my thinking, just the opposite in fact. My father was a strong advocate of Free Speech and Free Thought, perhaps I'm just my father's son. 

Having said that, I still believe that if a child reaches a certain age and decides to reject religion, the parents should accept that choice as they have raised an intelligent individual capable of free thought and capable of making choices based on his or her experience in life.

 

[Yrys]

Hijack from the subject of the thread

Agreed. There are a lot of people who should not be parents in the first place, I see them everyday.

You're not the only one... Forced adoption should be easier for children protecting services agency.


Study: 1 in 50 U.S. babies abused, neglected annually

The study focused on children younger than 1 year, and found nearly a third of those who had been abused or neglected were one week old or younger
when the abuse or neglect occurred.
...
Federal officials define neglect as a failure to meet a child's basic needs including housing, clothing, feeding and access to medical care. But the counted cases
did not include new parents stumbling their way through breast-feeding or making other rookie mistakes.

If you're not housing a child, what are you doing ? Putting him/her on the balcony  ?

 

[Richie]

...there must be a starting point somewhere, and exposing children to the belief system of the parents is one way to start, with the understanding that the child has the choice to say no later on if they dont like it.

Bingo! A one year old child obviously cannot weigh the pros and cons of religion, they're still figuring out how to walk. The parents need to provide some sort of moral/philosophical framework within which they can bring up their kids. Once the kids start thinking for themselves, it's the parents' obligation to respect the choice of their offspring.