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Winter FTX

When they started to issue the SAVA and ICE kit, I just maveled at what they were piling in front of me.

Is tehre better out there? yup, no question BUT, I see no point in spending my hard earned $$$ on kit that, If I damage or lose or have stolen, I have to replace on my nickle.
 
And there's one more thing that gets beat to death on these forums ... the Supply Techs. 

Who mentioned supply techs? A little sensitive about something?

Gear contracted = gear trialled by first line users ... hmmmm. Funny that.

Just because the gear is trailed doesn't mean that the best stuff got the contract. Its no secret that DND is always trying to balance cost with effectiveness when buying kit. The army just doesn't have a blank cheque for outfitting everyone with the latest and greatest gear. There is always better stuff out there. I don't see the point you're trying to make here...

You don't like the boots, someone else does. You don't like the gloves, someone else does.

My point exactly. Issued MK3s and Desert Altimas with vibram soles are my favourite boots. But on some guys these boots were horrible for their bodies. They started thinking outside the bin, went out and bought Magnums and SWATs and eventually the army caught up with the first line user. These boots are now part of the system. It is current policy in 1RCR that you can wear whatever boot you want, as long as it is a black military combat boot. Our former RSM made the call that the troops should be wearing the boots that suit their feet before they're broken and need medical chits. Its about time the dog wagged the tail...
 
Wonderbread said:
Who mentioned supply techs? A little sensitive about something?

Just because the gear is trailed doesn't mean that the best stuff got the contract. Its no secret that DND is always trying to balance cost with effectiveness when buying kit. The army just doesn't have a blank cheque for outfitting everyone with the latest and greatest gear. There is always better stuff out there. I don't see the point you're trying to make here...

My point exactly. Issued MK3s and Desert Altimas with vibram soles are my favourite boots. But on some guys these boots were horrible for their bodies. They started thinking outside the bin, went out and bought Magnums and SWATs and eventually the army caught up with the first line user. These boots are now part of the system. It is current policy in 1RCR that you can wear whatever boot you want, as long as it is a black military combat boot. Our former RSM made the call that the troops should be wearing the boots that suit their feet before they're broken and need medical chits. Its about time the dog wagged the tail...

If you think I'm sensitive, you've obviously mistaken me with someone else.  ;)

And my point is, for everyone who likes a certain type of boot ... someone else hates them. Including your beloved Danners and Swats. That's the point. What you LIKE and consider great and "outside the box" ... you think as such only because you happen to be someone that they work for. You are not everyone else. I guess I should have kept stats on all the LPO boots (not contracted BTW ... just SO'd) ... turned in because the troop that picked them out hated them. It's very common. Magnums and Swats ... are NOT part of the system. They may be LPOd in special cases by your Base, but they are NOT part of the system.

Enough with the myths.

Policy has always stated that any LPOd boots be black, what's new here?? BTW, if you search through this site, and even go back through my posts...you'll find that the tail was wagging the dog WRT soldiers wearing the footwear that bests suits them ... years ago. That's right, ... at LF WGs, Clothing WGs, and CTS WGs ... it's certainly not some new idea. It's years and years old. I can email you the powerpoint from 2002 where that's on the agenda if you wish ...
 
And my point is, for everyone who likes a certain type of boot ... someone else hates them. Including your beloved Danners and Swats. That's the point. What you LIKE and consider great and "outside the box" ... you think as such only because you happen to be someone that they work for. You are not everyone else.

huh?

My whole point is that its alright if guys at the bottom use non-issue gear if it works better for them. Like I said in my above post, I LOVE the ISSUED MK3s but I think its important that guys have the freedom to find boots that work for them. I'll be honest with you, I have no idea what an LPO is. I drew two pairs of tan SWAT boots from base supply, without putting in any sort of request... I figured that meant they were in the system. But besides that, the RSM directed that the troops can BUY their own boots OUTSIDE of military channels, provided those boots are black (or tan, for deployment) combat boots. Does that fall under an LPO?

I'm not saying that my way is the be all and end all. I'm saying give the boys on the ground a bit of credit when it comes to what works and what doesn't. Give them the freedom (within reason - a CADPAT outer layer would be a good stipulation) to find gear that works for them. On the other hand you seem pretty firm on issued kit being the only way to go. But just because it works for you, it doesn't mean that there arn't other guys who are willing to do better.
 
Wonderbread said:
huh?

My whole point is that its alright if guys at the bottom use non-issue gear if it works better for them. Like I said in my above post, I LOVE the ISSUED MK3s but I think its important that guys have the freedom to find boots that work for them. I'll be honest with you, I have no idea what an LPO is. I drew two pairs of tan SWAT boots from base supply, without putting in any sort of request... I figured that meant they were in the system. But besides that, the RSM directed that the troops can BUY their own boots OUTSIDE of military channels, provided those boots are black (or tan, for deployment) combat boots. Does that fall under an LPO?

I'm not saying that my way is the be all and end all. I'm saying give the boys on the ground a bit of credit when it comes to what works and what doesn't. Give them the freedom (within reason - a CADPAT outer layer would be a good stipulation) to find gear that works for them. On the other hand you seem pretty firm on issued kit being the only way to go. But just because it works for you, it doesn't mean that there arn't other guys who are willing to do better.

LPO = Local Purchase Order (Vern can correct if I'm wrong)
 
Wonderbread said:
huh?
On the other hand you seem pretty firm on issued kit being the only way to go. But just because it works for you, it doesn't mean that there arn't other guys who are willing to do better.

Obviously, you know not my posting history. I am one of the strongest advocates of personnel getting an annual boot allowance etc to buy what suits them for kit that you'll happen to come across.

What I am against, is personnel who are new to the CF being misled to think that their issue gear will not work for them, put them at risk, or fail them. That's 110% absolutely not the case, but you'd never know it from posts around here.

If something happens to their Gucci kit in an austere location and it needs to be replaced with "system stuff," they'd better damn well know how to use it, and be confident with it. It too, could save their lives.

Once they are confident in that, if they want to spend their money buying kit, that's up to them. I have zero problems with that ... as long as they pack what's on their kit list and bring it with them into theatre or on sov op etc. Why's that?? Because the Crown (ie the taxpayer) shouldn't have to pay to reissue shit the guys already got but left at home ... because he chose to bring Gucci gear and ruined it.

Clear enough for you?
 
Wonderbread said:
I drew two pairs of tan SWAT boots from base supply, without putting in any sort of request... I figured that meant they were in the system. But besides that, the RSM directed that the troops can BUY their own boots OUTSIDE of military channels, provided those boots are black (or tan, for deployment) combat boots. Does that fall under an LPO?

Ahhh the Pet desert boot purchase. Yes, most clothing stores supervisiors in the nation heard about that, and not in a nice way. Wander up and ask how that went over.
 
What I am against, is personnel who are new to the CF being misled to think that their issue gear will not work for them, put them at risk, or fail them. That's 110% absolutely not the case, but you'd never know it from posts around here.

With the notable exceptions of the CWW boots, the TacVest, those new leather gloves, the SOG multitool, hockey puck Mk3s...

If something happens to their Gucci kit in an austere location and it needs to be replaced with "system stuff," they'd better damn well know how to use it, and be confident with it. It too, could save their lives.

We're talking about non-issue winter clothes!!! I don't think my issued toque wearing ability has suffered any skill fade since battleschool!!

Once they are confident in that, if they want to spend their money buying kit, that's up to them. I have zero problems with that ... as long as they pack what's on their kit list and bring it with them into theatre or on sov op etc. Why's that?? Because the Crown (ie the taxpayer) shouldn't have to pay to reissue crap the guys already got but left at home ... because he chose to bring Gucci gear and ruined it.

I agree, In theatre you should have everything back at KAF or wherever the rear is. But out at the FOBs when space is tight, or on EX when you carry it all on your back is another story. Everything is a calculated risk.
 
Wonderbread said:
I agree, In theatre you should have everything back at KAF or wherever the rear is. But out at the FOBs when space is tight, or on EX when you carry it all on your back is another story. Everything is a calculated risk.

Yes, everything is a calculated risk.  And when you use kit which may not be tested and approved by the system, you risk being unable to do your job with maximum effectiveness if it fails.  Your superiors, however, are taking the risk that your inability to do your job effectively may undermine your fire team or section or platoon at a critical moment.  Levels of risk change with the item under discussion and with the perspective of the person making the decision to allow or disallow a modification or replacement. Talking about your toque is a red herring, failed boots or load carrying equipment can be quite another matter.
 
Wonderbread said:
.......... Everything is a calculated risk.

Hypothermia is not a calculated risk.  It is a mistake on your part for not wearing the proper kit and following your training.  Your 'initiative' not to bring the proper kit on an EX can cost you your life.  Quite a few people may have second thoughts on that subject after Maple Defender.



Mother Nature is sometimes very unforgiving.
 
There is always two sides to a story, non issued kit can be great, think stealth suits, and bivy bags back in the day, even boots.  BUt the problem arises when people have no concept of what they require, and buy stuff off the cuff, through hear say, or because of glossy magazines.  Everyone says things like, "well, I'll just take that risk".  But when it comes down to it, can you afford to take the risk?  People on Sov Ops have brought mec goose down parka's, gutted the old parka of its liner, and worn the down, works great until the level of exertion you are doing excedes the moisture management of the down jacket.  Then it turns into a cold, wet, thin, and potentially deadly item.  Or, the people that were into the dragon skin armour, I don't know the full story on it, but it seems that someone in the US is answering a lot of important questions about that body armour.  I am in no way defending one side or the other, but, the issued stuff of this generation has been trialled by the end user, and most items require 80 percent acceptance by the end user before it is put in service.  You may not agree, but that is the way it is.  On top of this, items are subjected to wear in trials, they are burned, washed many times, worked to the point of failure, and trialed by users around the CF to ensure there is no one group boning another by giving it 100 percent while anothergroup says 10 percent.  And anyone on here that is arguing that a troop should first, be competent and confident in the use of his basic issue kit has something wrong.  The tac vest may not cary ten mags comfortably, but it will carry them, in the C9 pouch, stuffed in the map pocket, or any where else you can stuff it, and at the expense of the issued canteen, but it will carry them.  A non issue rig may be more comfortable, but if it craps out Beyond Gun Tap Repair (BGTR), then you must know how to use what you will be issued in its stead.  A guy covered in Snugpak must understand that if that stuff is burned in a tent fire, he can put the innner and outer issued sleeping bag together, place them inside a bivy bag,  use the issued sleeping pad, and he will still get a good nights sleep.

Complaints about kit will carry on forever.  Even if the army completely re-issued everything that is on the aftermarket right now, a year from now, guys would see "better" things, and want them.  This doesn't mean that the issued stuff is junk, just means that time marches on.  There once was a time that Danner's were the only good aftermarket boot, now look at the market, Swat's, Magnum, Bates, Haix, Hanwag, Lowa, and the list goes on.
 
But when it comes down to it, can you afford to take the risk?  People on Sov Ops have brought mec goose down parka's, gutted the old parka of its liner, and worn the down, works great until the level of exertion you are doing excedes the moisture management of the down jacket.  Then it turns into a cold, wet, thin, and potentially deadly item.

Hypothermia is not a calculated risk.  It is a mistake on your part for not wearing the proper kit and following your training.  Your 'initiative' not to bring the proper kit on an EX can cost you your life.  Quite a few people may have second thoughts on that subject after Maple Defender.

And when you use kit which may not be tested and approved by the system, you risk being unable to do your job with maximum effectiveness if it fails.  Your superiors, however, are taking the risk that your inability to do your job effectively may undermine your fire team or section or platoon at a critical moment.  Levels of risk change with the item under discussion and with the perspective of the person making the decision to allow or disallow a modification or replacement.

Well,

You can just as easily overheat in the issued stuff too if you're not carefull. If the user fails to thin out for exertion in cold weather then blame the operator, not the kit. And isn't there a risk that the issued kit will fail too? In fact, the major players in the aftermarket gear industry are intent on OVERBUILDING their stuff. Just looking at the stitching on my Eagle Indistries chest rig I can tell you its a hell of alot more durable then the issued tacvest. Eagle is the same company that provides the US Army SF with their standard issue CIRAS systems. And what about Softies? Tested and proven by the British military for years. These companies are always looking for big government contracts and they build their gear to Mil-Spec. We're not talking about your son's school backpack, here. We're talking about gear specifically designed for the abuse of deployments and then some.

Just look at the gear used on OP Archer ROTO 1 and ROTO 2. As soon as the troops are put into a position where they'll actually need to fight, large numbers of them went to non-issue gear. This was not limited to JTF wannabes and guys going for the LCF. This was all up and down the rank structure: Pte/Cpls, Jr NCOs, Sr NCOs, and Officers. Off the top of my head some of the stuff that was used in my own company (including PL Comds, CQ, and CSM): Softies (the Brit Army standard), fleece toques, converse boots, ESS goggles, Hatch gloves, Cobra bivi bags (you know you've been around awhile when), tactikka headlamps, Civi GPS, snugpak sleeping bags, MEC ridgerests, camelback 3 day packs, HSGI/Eagle/TT/ect chest rigs, KAC rails, aimpoints, ACOGs, tangodown foregrips, BFG slings, wigwam socks, SOTech riggers belts, magpuls, aero helmet pads, safariland holsters, compression sacks, stealth suits, ect ect ect...

In the RCR no less!! Talk about a unit that prides itself in parade square uniformity!!

This is NOT the gear of some weird army fringe group. This is THE STANDARD for units deployed on combat operations. Say what you will about the decision to issue SWAT boots to TF 3-06 en masse. Most of the guys I talked to LOVED them!!! The fact that it didn't jive with the rest of the army says something about the state of the system...

The troops will always take the path of least resistance. If it didn't work better, they'd be doing something else!!
 
In the RCR no less. Yes, I know them well, I'm married to one.  ;)

Your arguments about after-market kit are nothing new. 2 years from now, your after-market kit will be irrelevant and replaceable with something which is, no doubt, more expensive yet again. The fact is, new troops need to learn how to use their issued gear. While they are in the pipe-line, that is all they should be allowed. Because, if one day that's all they've got, they need to know how to use it properly. You may not think personnaly that your kit would be capable of saving your life if used properly ... but I'd think there's some survivors of Boxtop 22 who'd argue that point with you. They managed to scrounge up what little of their arctic gear managed to survive the crash ... and it indeed saved lives. They used their initiative, and that was long before the days of Gucci aftermarket kit becoming the norm. As I said before, once the troops are out of the trg pipeline ... fill 'yer boots. But, they must be confident with the issued gear. Oh, and "yes they can just as easily overheat in the issued gear" ... and your comment about that does nothing except highlight exactly WHY the new troops need to learn how to use their gear properly, because overheating can (and has) caused deaths of soldiers. Thanks for bringing it up. If they ever are "stuck" in a situation where issued gear is all that's available... they need to know how to use it properly. It really is that simple.  And, I do not condone anyone advising those in the training pipeline that it is not important to learn to be confident with their issued gear, lest one day that's all they have to depend upon.

The system could bring in today the chest rigs etc being used by pers overseas right now. But, the system can't bring in every type of aftermarket rig out there now can it?? The system needs to bring in items which do the job they are intended to do, in the conditions it was intended for.

We won't get into the TacVest, it's useless. No one argues with that. But, the fact of the matter is, when it was trialled by first line Units in field conditions etc ... it passed. Ergo, we have it now. Of course, Afghanistan has changed all that. But, the facts are ... it was brought in to the system long before that op ...

War changes many things. If we had a big US budget ... we'd be able to afford to bring in all the top-notch after-market Gucci gear there is out there right now. But, we don't have that kind of money, and it'll be outdated next year anyways. So those who complain now, will still complain next year if the item the Gucci item they are using now is brought into the system next year ... why?? Because something better still will be available by then, and they'll be yelling at the system for not buying that better-still item. The overwhelming majority of the issued kit ... does the job perfectly fine though.

 
A good set of wicking underwear is key for winter (or summer)!
I agree fully with the "learn to use your issued kit" school but...
the generally accepted rule of many small layers seems lost when wearing the winter parka.
At least start with a good synthetic under-layer to keep moisture off the skin.
It doesn't matter if it's cheap poli-pro work cloths or expensive Lycra blend sports gear.
For $25 at Walmart, Workwear World or whereever you can set your self up.
You will be working hard and you will be sweating. Think about some synthetic under socks as well.
Worry about the rest of your kit after you have more experience to draw on.
 
So, was just skimming over some of the issue brought up in this thread and while I am sure that the once Winter FTX forum will either be shifted or locked out soon, I thought that I would put my 2 cents in.  I have 7 years experience...four at the great institution of RMC (so what did I learn Army wise...4 summers of some great Infantry trg) and 3 years in the RCR, one tour and my first Bde Staff posn.  So, I understand that I do not know all, but I have seen a few things. For the most part, I have to agree with most of the latest replies on issued kit and non issued kit.

First, I will be the first to say that we have some of the best kit in the world, right down from the Leopard 2 and LAV III to the tac vest. The boots...not so much. The issued boots are junk, period. While they are superb for robustness in material (old Mark 3's), they left a lot to be desired in the way of comfort, functionality across the board and good for your body. While it is not scientific fact, there are a lot of army types who have 20 + years in and their lower bodies and backs are shot because of boots, hard (not smart) trg and wear and tear.  I went to all kinds of length's to get issued a pair of SWAT's but I came back to the "if your feet physically fit into the Mk 3's then that is what you wear". Yes, you can talk about ease of replacement, and maybe robustness, but I can promise you that the new issued boots will fall apart (they are only double stitched vice quadruple) and they tear your feet apart because of the design. Essentially they took the CWW boot and took the lining out. And any pers that I talk to that was part of the trials for these Boulet boots said that they were no good, but for some reason, that is what we have.

The TV is great for leaders and riflemen (other than the mag issue) which is easily remedied with a non issued backpack that you will almost always be carrying. For the rest, it needs to be modular. My C6 Gnrs (I had 4 on patrol once) all wore a Predator pack, camel bak, first aide pouch and backpack stuffed with extra ammo...no TV.

As to all of the other kit issues, Wonderbread has a huge point. The manufacturers of most of the "Gucci" kit that soldiers are buying do put in a lot more effort to make the best product possible and while Under Armour will melt to your skin it comes down to this...some soldiers are not smart enough to buy good kit, so it becomes a CofC issue.  90 % of the soldiers that I have trained, led and fought beside are pretty damn smart and they easily and quickly see good vs bad. It's the LCF/Wannabe SF guys that you have to watch as a leader and then guide in the fine arts of what works vs what looks good.

As to the "pipeline" issue, issued kit is all that should be used until they reach a point where they are competent.  But, I have yet to see any soldiers, if trained properly in Battle School who could not properly use the issued kit that we all have so many issues with.  We're not talking about LAV III's and high tech thermal eqpt...we're talking about clothes.  If there are pers out there like that, then they should be binned quickly.  While Gucci kit will always keep changing, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't use it.  It just goes to show that our kit, while very "good" is not the best.  And if anyone wants to argue that, try it over seas...it will work...but it isn't the most comfortable and there is much more that will do the same only better.   Take the BEW for instance, the issued ones vs ESS BEW.  They both do the same thing (I have seen it), yet with the issued ones, many soldiers get headaches because of the way they are constructed...the helmet sits on the top of the glasses and digs into your nose.  The ESS ones don't.  And at the end of the day, comfort is a huge factor.
 
Actually, to clarify on the Old issued MkIIIs ...

The thing is the overwhelming and vast majority of soldiers who wore nothing but this footwear through their careers don't have foot, knee, back problems to show for it. Some do, but by far they are very few compared to the numbers of pers who wore these boots and suffered no ill-effects.

This has also been discussed on this forum before. In the past 10 years or so, there has been a HUGE increase in the numbers of soldiers (young, new soldiers < 10 service) experiencing problems with the MkIIIs. The reasoning for that increase is that this new generation of soldiers has never worn what my grandmother would call "sturdy shoes" in their lives. This new generation is used to 4 oz running shoes etc, and whenever anything weighted (ie sturdy) is put onto their feet ... it's all new to them and causes problems.
 
I knew all those years of wearing Grebb Kodiaks in University (the Extended Version) would pay off.  ;D
 
I dunno, HoM wore Doc Martin's for years, and he complains about boots all the time  ;D
 
Sig_Des said:
I dunno, HoM wore Doc Martin's for years, and he complains about boots all the time  ;D

Those aren't 'real' boots......but it may indicate why he likes the gucci kit.  ;D
 
You know you try and stay out of kit threads, not like my opinion on issue kit in general isn't well known.....

Boots...ahh Boots like the Tac Vest argument wont ever go away and the usual suspect are lined up on their usual sides. Nothing new here is there. Wonderbread wants the freedom to buy his kit (within reason) and  perhaps change what is issued and Vern as part of the system that looks at $$$ and such with many many years experience is on the side that what we have is good enough for the vast majority. I think the biggest difference is that many people on the pointy end are saying the mentality of forces wide good enough just isn't. I happen to fall into that camp but I do try and see the other side of coin. I wear non issue boots for deployment and now will wear them at work ( I have a medical chit for them) I truly believe that a soldier any soldier once he has left the training system (BMQ,SQ,BIQ) should if he has the money to spend be allowed to buy kit he would like too use. What I think is the best compromise is a list of allowable non issue kit for purchase put out by Units and carried by the Unit Kit shop. The likely hood of some new guy going of and spending thousands of dollars on useless kit is eliminated or I should say mitigated by the kit shops keeping the list and carrying the kit most bought by the older guys.

Meh what do I know, I don't wear the issue kit anyway, not going to start now ether.
 
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