Why we pay Reservists what we do (Including Reg v.s. Cl B v.s. Cl C pay, and Double-Dippin')

[dapaterson]

The same amount of time they will allow them to work for PS (or any other job for that matter) and collect a pension.

Double-dipping it may be, but don't forget, they earned that pension by fulfilling a 20 year (or longer) contract.

I really want that can of worms icon.

From a narrow legal perspective, there is one force: the Canadian Armed Forces.  There are two components currently of that force:  The Regular Force, and the Reserve Force.

The Regular Force is personnel enrolled for continuing full time service; the Reserve Force is personnel enrolled for other than continuing full-time service when not on active service.  (National Defence Act or NDA descriptions)

(PLEASE - for the love of whatever deity you may follow - let's not go down the "What is Active Service?" rabbit hole.)

If a Regular Force member transfers to the Reserve Force and immediately resumes full-time military service, is DND just playing fast and loose with the rules?  What has changed from the NDA perspective?  (This also leads to the question - at what point should a Reservist on full-time service be automatically enrolled in the Regular Force as they are engaged in "continuing full-time service").


Lots and lots of worms in our current employment frameworks - while some argue we're not breaking the law, no one can deny we're stretching it to the limit, at the very least...

 

[McG]

Double-dipping it may be, but don't forget, they earned that pension by fulfilling a 20 year (or longer) contract.

Surely they did not "earn" more then the person who worked twenty years and then kept working in the regular force for another 10 to 15.  Why the hell do we reward guys with more pay for shifting to less obligation & less utility to the organization as a whole?  The double dipper should not be getting more then if he stayed regular force.

 

[PMedMoe]

A Reg Force person with 27 years in has also earned that pension - why can't he just start collecting it while he is still serving?

Serving in the military for 20 years and than jumping over to Environment BC is one thing, and understandable (IMO), but serving in the military and than quitting to continue serving in the military is merde.  You're either in or you're out.

Well, that may be so.  Maybe we should start allowing members to collect a pension while they serve.  Maybe, just maybe, that person who retires from the RegF and gets in the ResF, wants to continue in the military but is unable to remain full-time.  Could be family problems, posting issues, you name it.

My original post was only meant to say that the TB won't be able to say squat about it.

I still don't agree with ResF members getting 100% of RegF pay outside of Class C.  Sorry, but you won't sell me on "they're doing the same job".  If that's the case then they should have the same training (not courses at their unit), the same time lines for promotion (not every two years) and not receive more than 20 days annual leave per year until they have five years in, to start.  Oh, and then they should be subject to the same postings, deployments, etc as the RegF.  Oh wait, didn't that just describe the RegF?  I'm pretty sure we've had this argument here before.

Anyway, I'll leave the rest of you to it, as I have no dog in this fight.  :-\

 

[kratz]

[quote author=dapaterson]I really want that can of worms icon.[/quote]

 

[Haggis]

The 22500 they report is the total enrolled strength.  The target is based on a parade strength.  Given the poor admin of many Reserve units, we carry literally thousands of folks who are NES or just don't show up (the units don't do the NES paperwork).  Some units have literally dozens of folks on the rolls who have not paraded for a year or more (39 CBG is apparently allergic to paperwork).

Which is why, in LFCA at least, direction from "higher" is to clean house and do it ASAP.

 

[FDO]

One of the best things about being Canadian and being in the CF and especially the PRes is if you don't like what your doing, or you don't like how your being treated OR you don't like the pay your getting you can walk away. You can always get a job making the same money doing less on civvy street. All kinds of jobs out there. Go get them!

 

[George Wallace]

Surely they did not "earn" more then the person who worked twenty years and then kept working in the regular force for another 10 to 15.  Why the hell do we reward guys with more pay for shifting to less obligation & less utility to the organization as a whole?  The double dipper should not be getting more then if he stayed regular force.

:

So a guy gets out after 20 years and collects a pension while in the Reserves.  So what!  (S)He would be a fool to buy into the Reserve Pension Plan.

Meanwhile the guy who after 20 years, has earned the same pension, but decides to serve in the Regs for another 10 to 15 years has increased his/her pension by 2% for every following year served and also will likely get a great deal more pay for his/her last 5-6 years of service increasing his/her pension even more.  Yeah!  That makes sense now.  :

 

[George Wallace]

MCG and Infanteer

I think it is time you should attend a SCAN Seminar and find out about Pensions.

 

[PuckChaser]

Which is why, in LFCA at least, direction from "higher" is to clean house and do it ASAP.

Upwards of 130 pers losing their Cl B (on a priority basis) as well. There are a lot of units having space filled up by NES or not trained pers, and I applaud the LFCA Comd for finally getting a grip on it.

 

[gcclarke]

I @#$ hate double dipping.  In maybe half the cases it provides a positive incentive for retiring full time Regular Force to provide thier time, skill and experience to help develop & bring-along a reserve unit.

In all the other cases, it provides some guy on the way out with more money to fill what probably should be a regular force job & at the same time that individual gets the privilage of never being posted while denying that career management flexibility to the CF.

I personally think the government should not be paying wages (military, Public Servant, or RCMP) while paying a full retirement pension.  You want to work & collect a pension, that's fine but your pension should not raise your take home pay above 100% of the rate the pension is based on.

Getting rid of the capability to double dip would indeed likely increase the number of people with 20+ years of experience who continue to stick on in the reg force. However, it would also very likely drastically decrease the number of people who decide to stick around until they have hit the 20 (or 25) year mark.

The pension system that we have set up is one of the if not the best benefit of being a member of the Canadian Armed Forces. If you gut it by removing the capability to double dip, you also remove one of the best reasons for people to A) Join up in the first place, and B) Remain in the Forces for long enough to earn said pension.

If it were amended to make it so that people were only able to draw a pension if they were working for someone other than the CF / Government of Canada, the situation would be even worse, as that would incentivise  people to serve their time, and then go work somewhere completely different, meaning that their expertise would be lost completely to the Canadian Armed Forces, as opposed to simply using them in a different role.

 

[George Wallace]

Also how long will TB allow ex-Reg force to Double Dip with a pension and a job on Class "BA"?

The answer to that is stated in TB regulations.  A "Double Dipper" who serves on a Class B for more than 330 days (331 in a leapyear) concurrently is then considered "Full-time" and in the Regs again.  It has sever ramifications to their pension.  ;D


"Double Dippers" are required to take 35 unpaid days leave in their 'year'.  Does that sound fair to you?  Does that justify 85% Reg Force Pay?  Does that justify them collecting a pension?

 

[Occam]

So a guy gets out after 20 years and collects a pension while in the Reserves.  So what!  (S)He would be a fool to buy into the Reserve Pension Plan.

A former RegF member drawing an annuity can't buy into the reserve pension plan.  All they can do is elect to stop the RegF annuity and start paying into the RegF pension plan as a reservist.

 

[George Wallace]

I don't know how this got onto the "Double Dipper" and persons having served 20 Plus years in the Regs moving on to the Reserves.  I am actively trying to encourage the "REVERSE CT" to help keep some of the knowledge, experience and mentorship in the Reserves, as opposed to the Reserves being a cheap Training System for the Regular Force (BMQ, SQ, Trades Trg).

 

[gcclarke]

Ok, so I decided to do some quick comparisons here.

Say you've got someone who's deciding whether or not to double dip or not. They're at 20 years in, and have maxed out seniority at Captain. For ease of calculations, let's assume that's 80 grand.

If they were to retire from the reg force, and transfer to reserves, and manage to get a class B, they'll be getting their pension at 40% (32,000), and their salary at 85% of the reg force captain's salary (68000), for a total of 100,000 a year. This is 20,000 a year extra.

Whereas if they stay in, even assuming they never get promoted to major, when they retire, say, 10 years later, they'll still be getting that 80,000 salary, but when they start drawing their pension, it's at 60% vice 40%, $48000.

So, assuming this person wanted to actually retire at the same time, the captain who went Class B that time made a total of 200,000 more than his imaginary reg force counterpart, who will be making 16,000 more on his pension than his imaginary reservist counterpart.

Pure dollars and sense, the Reg Force guy would have to live at least 12.5 years past retirement for his total income earned to exceed that of the Reserve Force guy.

Of course, one you start throwing compound interest into things, it screws stuff my calculations up and sweetens the deal for the dude making the component transfer.

 

[George Wallace]

Whereas if they stay in, even assuming they never get promoted to major, when they retire, say, 10 years later, they'll still be getting that 80,000 salary, .........

What?  They didn't give him a raise in ten years......he had his wages frozen for ten years?  What fool would put up with that........Double Dip man.

 

[gcclarke]

What?  They didn't give him a raise in ten years......he had his wages frozen for ten years?  What fool would put up with that........Double Dip man.

Meh, if they're maxed out IPCs for their rank, no promotion means no pay increase, unless everyone gets one. Hard to tell when those will come, so you really shouldn't do any long term financial planning based upon that.

I'm sure he'd hardly be the only imaginary career captain.

 

[Occam]

Of course, one you start throwing compound interest into things, it screws stuff my calculations up and sweetens the deal for the dude making the component transfer.

Don't forget the guy doing the CT to the reserves only works 330 paid days out of the year.

This stuff makes my brain hurt.

 

[FDO]

Why is no one complaining of the PRes who has a civvy job for 20 years and retires with a pension for that job and takes a class B contract. They will be "Double Dipping". That is going to be OK because they have paid into the pension plan so deserve to collect on retirement. So now the RegF member pays into a pension plan for 20-30 years and on retirement collects a pension that they have paid into and takes a second job and collects a paycheck for doing that job.

What's the issue?

 

[gcclarke]

Don't forget the guy doing the CT to the reserves only works 330 paid days out of the year.

This stuff makes my brain hurt.

Ahhh right good point. That makes the reserve guy's annual income total during the 10 years 13500 higher than the reg force guy's, rather than 20000.

So the reg force dude achieves total income parity after 8.5 years.

 

[George Wallace]

Meh, if they're maxed out IPCs for their rank, no promotion means no pay increase, unless everyone gets one. Hard to tell when those will come, so you really shouldn't do any long term financial planning based upon that.

I'm sure he'd hardly be the only imaginary career captain.

So he maxed out on IPCs.  Are you still thinking that he will not get a pay raise, along with the remainder of the CF, for his ten years?