Why we pay Reservists what we do (Including Reg v.s. Cl B v.s. Cl C pay, and Double-Dippin')

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Whole different can of worms I know but MCG said earlier about maxing out at 100% of members pay. That is very close to what we do in Ontario Corrections, the member can work until his pay and pension become what would be approx. their full pay if they were still fully employed. Then, unless they wish to work for free, they can enjoy retirement until the next pay period.

This allows holes to be filled and keeps experience in the game. [although from what I read here the military has raging leaks, not just holes]

 

[armyvern]

This allows holes to be filled and keeps experience in the game. [although from what I read here the military has raging leaks, not just holes]

Gaping holes for sure. For trades that haven't been the beneficiary of recruitment over the past 6 years or so, even normal retirement patterns have led to 72% manning levels ... Of all those Suppies I know who've retired over the past year, only 2 have gone to the ResF (after a gap in service - thus their service did not actually continue full-time as implied in a statement below). The ResF is also hurting for Sup techs ...

So what do we do if we prohibit the hiring of those already experienced and trained (who have indeed released/retired) from filling some of those gaps? Either way, the CF needs them and the gaping holes will just get bigger without them. Either that, or I can become a teacher for say 20 years and collect a double pension from another employer ...

 

[Jarnhamar]

One of the best things about being Canadian and being in the CF and especially the PRes is if you don't like what your doing, or you don't like how your being treated OR you don't like the pay your getting you can walk away. You can always get a job making the same money doing less on civvy street. All kinds of jobs out there. Go get them!

Are you implying that if we don't like how things are and we see ways to improve the forces we should just forget about it and quit?

If we still thought that way we'd be standing up out of our trenches in Afghanistan and walking towards machinegun fire 


George I agree, class Bs are needed.
The reg forces needs a lot of manpower drawn form the reserves for various tasks. In order for reserve regiments to have those soldiers trained, equipped and prepared to augment the regular force they need full time staff running the regiment.
In my opinion if reserve units have full time staff who are training up a pool of oldiers to augment the regular force they should be paid the same. Someone can argue pro's and cons of each, who does duty, who has to work saturday mornings but in the end when the regular force says to the reserves we need 800 people- they're there.

By the sounds of it there are a lot of un-required class B jobs floating around in headquarters type establishments ie Ottawa. I thought THATS where the class B cuts were originally supposed to be culled from.

All this talk about pension, I'm going to look into buying back my pension time once someone at my unit explains it to me.  In a nutshell if I transfer to the regular force (5th time trying to CT is a charm) I get an amount of years towards my pension that I have to 'buy' and once bought then they will go towards my thingie when I can retire?

 

[PMedMoe]

In a nutshell if I transfer to the regular force (5th time trying to CT is a charm) I get an amount of years towards my pension that I have to 'buy' and once bought then they will go towards my thingie when I can retire?

The years you buy back may or may not account for time in, but they will count for your pension.

 

[begbie]

Only the government.  The government is also the only employer that will let you transfer between jobs and start collecting a full pension while they still fully employ you (on a movement between RCMP, CF or PS).

The CF is the only place where you can transfer from "indeterminant" to years long "term" and still collect a full pension.

PS Pension Plan:  http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/hr-rh/bp-rasp/index-eng.asp

For clarity, I assume we're only talking about pers who were in the CF.  Any federal public servant can obviously leave government at any time but will only be able to draw a pension benefit until much later in life (I think it's 55 - I should George's advise and take that retirement seminar).  Non-former military public servants are not 'retiring' after 20 years and immediately drawing a pension.

 

[mariomike]

Pension Plan:  http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/hr-rh/bp-rasp/index-eng.asp

It's same deal as the one I posted above for the posties, and PSAC:
http://www.psac-afpc.com/documents/what/retiring_from_ps_usefultips-e.pdf
"Retirement at or after 60, or at 55 with 30 or more years of pensionable service".
They all say you must be age 55 to receive an unreduced pension. Even if you have been a member since you were nine years old. ( CF excluded ).

Whoever you work for, whatever work you do, your "company" lifetime pension should be 70 per cent of your pre-retirement earnings. That is considered to be the benchmark for quality of life in retirement.  Indexed to inflation every year. That is the pension only.  "Bridge Benefit" to C.P.P., personal savings, properties, and other sources of income are above and beyond that.
An OMERS pension has two components:
1) A  lifetime ( indexed  to inflation every year ) pension of 70 percent of pre-retirement earnings, plus;
2) A "Bridge Benefit" payable until age 65, in addition to the OMERS pension. Even after you begin collecting collecting C.P.P. at age 60.
Considering the fact that from age 55 you no longer are paying CPP, E.I., union dues, or OMERS and now receiving the Bridge Benefit, your pension is only a few dollars shy of your pre-retirement earnings. 
There is now a "new and improved" OMERS plan for Police, Fire and Paramedics in Ontario:
http://www.omers.com/Assets/supplemental+plans/Supplemental+Plan+handbook.pdf
1) You can now retire with an unreduced pension after 30 years on the job at age 50. It used to be 30 years of service +  minimum age 55. Regardless of Time In, you had to wait till you turned 55.
2) It now has a 2.33% pension accrual rate. This allows members to reach the 70% maximum of pensionable earnings in thirty years. It used be 2% X 35 years.
3) It is now based on the member's best three years earnings. It used to be the best five years.

 

[McG]

My understanding is that there are three different pensions from the government (not counting what is available to political positions):  The CF pension, the RCMP pension and the Public Service Pension.

The posties may have thier own website outlining the pension, but it is the same pension plan as the civi clerks in your OR.

 

[dapaterson]

My understanding is that there are three different pensions from the government (not counting what is available to political positions):  The CF pension, the RCMP pension and the Public Service Pension.

The posties may have thier own website outlining the pension, but it is the same pension plan as the civi clerks in your OR.

It's more complex than that. For the Federal Government, there's RCMP, Public Service, CFSA Part I (Reg F and long-serving full-time Reservists), CFSA Part I.1 (part-time Reservists), Lieutenant Governors' Superannuation Act, Members of Parliament Retiring Allowance Act and the Diplomatic Service (Special) Superannuation Act.

Al of which (in theory) need to be kept co-ordinated... three guesses as to whether or not they are.

And Flawed Design: As a Reservist, you must elect to buy back your pensionable time no later than the end of February - time is getting short.  No election = no buyback.

 

[Stoker]

There are plenty of trades with Spec Pay in the Reserves.  The Navy is the only element that doesn't have any spec 1 trades in the PRes, and even that's about to change.  LCIS Tech, ATIS Tech, all the 500 series aircraft techs...they're all Spec 1 in the PRes.  I'm pretty sure there are a few other Army ones as well.

What trades in the naval reserve are going to be spec 1?

 

[CountDC]

George I agree, class Bs are needed.
The reg forces needs a lot of manpower drawn form the reserves for various tasks. In order for reserve regiments to have those soldiers trained, equipped and prepared to augment the regular force they need full time staff running the regiment.
In my opinion if reserve units have full time staff who are training up a pool of oldiers to augment the regular force they should be paid the same. Someone can argue pro's and cons of each, who does duty, who has to work saturday mornings but in the end when the regular force says to the reserves we need 800 people- they're there.

nah - do away with cl b and c.  Two types of service - part time - reserves, full time - reg f.  Replace the cl b and c with fixed period of service contracts. Mbr then gets pay and benefits of reg f (because they are) and is still signing to work full time for the same period. 

By the sounds of it there are a lot of un-required class B jobs floating around in headquarters type establishments ie Ottawa. I thought THATS where the class B cuts were originally supposed to be culled from.

There are?  Where are they hiding them.  I know here it is practically impossible to get a class b even as a mata/pata fill in. By the time we thought we were getting approval there was only a few months left so we didn't bother. Every cl b I know of is needed - or else they need to post in a reg f or hire a civilian.

Oh - to add - there was a major cull of all posns at headquarters in 1997 (mostly Cl B) - LFAAHQ went from a staff of 250+ down to around 98.

All this talk about pension, I'm going to look into buying back my pension time once someone at my unit explains it to me.  In a nutshell if I transfer to the regular force (5th time trying to CT is a charm) I get an amount of years towards my pension that I have to 'buy' and once bought then they will go towards my thingie when I can retire?

sort of but the math is different for your class a and short cl b (under 3 months I believe) time.  Pension buy back they siimply credit you quarter time for your class a and short class b periods - 1 year equals 3 months.  When they calculate the time served credit they look for actual days worked so that same year may count for more or less than 3 months. 17 Dec 2013 I have 25 years pension time, 1 Jan 2014 I have 25 years time served so I can retire and draw my IA. In my case the dates are close as the few years I received quarter time for I actually worked a lot. If you only worked the training night and weekends with no short class b periods then you will have a larger gap.

Good luck on the 5th try.

 

[Occam]

What trades in the naval reserve are going to be spec 1?

I've heard through the grapevine that there is soon to be a Reserve Naval Electronics Technician (or Weapons Engineering Technician abomination, if you prefer).

 

[PMedMoe]

I've heard through the grapevine that there is soon to be a Reserve Naval Electronics Technician (or Weapons Engineering Technician abomination, if you prefer).

From what I last heard (regarding my trade) was that Spec pay was still under review for the reserves.  If one trade gets it, they're going to pretty much have to give it to all qualifying trades.

Usually, when a PMed Tech goes to the ResF, they fill a Med Tech position as PMed does not exist in the ResF world.  They also do not get Spec pay.

 

[Occam]

Usually, when a PMed Tech goes to the ResF, they fill a Med Tech position as PMed does not exist in the ResF world.  They also do not get Spec pay.

NE Tech is being added to the ResF world, as I understand it.

 

[dapaterson]

sort of but the math is different for your class a and short cl b (under 3 months I believe) time.  Pension buy back they siimply credit you quarter time for your class a and short class b periods - 1 year equals 3 months.  When they calculate the time served credit they look for actual days worked so that same year may count for more or less than 3 months. 17 Dec 2013 I have 25 years pension time, 1 Jan 2014 I have 25 years time served so I can retire and draw my IA. In my case the dates are close as the few years I received quarter time for I actually worked a lot. If you only worked the training night and weekends with no short class b periods then you will have a larger gap.

Good luck on the 5th try.

They have changed the rules significantly, as part of pension modernization.  A current reservist buying back service up to 28 Feb 07 (everything since then is already covered) buys back actual days days - no more 1/4 time (* unless the pay records are completely lost for that period of time).  The math can get complex (since, for purposes of longevity of service, 1 day class A = 1.4 days calendar), and tracking records to determine actual pay is horrible (the bright brains in DND turned off the old reserve pay system without first making an electronic copy of the data - so if you ask for records, they go through old microfiches of pictures of the pay printouts, copy your information for each month, block out the other people on the list, copy that sheet, then compile them and send them to you).

There's another whole thread on Reserve Pensions, and the grand (lack of) success it has been to date.

 

[CountDC]

Is that on component transfer?  Didn't realize the 1/4 time was removed from there. I know the purely reserve pension is a mess.


Had the fun of going for my records to get my pension straight.  had to go through Ottawa to get an actual daily count as the reg f clerk that received my pers file stripped it of all the reserve docs except enolment forms.  The original pension calculation only gave me 3 years credit - didn't count anything as cl b which most of my time was. Only took 5 years to get it right.

As for spec pay - I heard the navy wanted to give it to the reserve trades that matched with regular force trades.  That was a while ago though.

 

[dapaterson]

As a Reservist, to get into the Reg F pension, first you must be in the Res F pension - so you buy-back under part I.1, then top-up under part I.  It's a terrible mess, with many other impacts.

So, to buy back, dig out all your old records (and DND's delays are your problem - not theirs - interest continues to accrue while you wait for your docs).  If, after all efforts, you can't find records for 1992, for example, you'll be credited with 1/4 time for that period - less any time you can produce class B route letters / class C messages for (those periods you'll get at 1:1).

 

[Reserve4Life]

After reading all of the posts I was amazed at all of the conversation with regards to Reserve, Regular Forces, Retired Regular Force turned Reservist and Pay Equity.

I have been a life long Reservist, joined in 81 and still going.  I chose to be a Reservist first and foremost, to have a part time job while I went to school.  While there I met my husband and stayed a Reservist so that I could move with him to various postings. Although I had the desire to move up and become Regular Force, or RCMP, I also wanted to be a mother one day and my concerns were that I did not want to chance leaving my child and doing 6 months tours, which at that time was Cypress, Damascus, Alert and various others.  I decided to stay a Reservist, and in doing so I have had what I call a wonderful, exciting, everchanging life.  I would never call being a Reservist a full time Career for me, but it has turned out that way.  I now have 23 years of full time service.  I bought back my pensionable time, and am looking forward to one day retiring with a monthly paycheck (pension) and enjoying my old age.

When I joined and up till the pay increase, I received 65% of Regular Force Pay.  Not only did I work full time on various bases, but as well trained with my unit at night and on weekends, with no extra pay.  Full Days Pay was just that, regardless of who you were working for and the hours you put in.  Some employing units would compensate my extra hours with early Fridays off, only in turn to travel to my unit to get ready for a weekend exercise.  But I loved what I did and I believe I did it well.  As I moved through the ranks I hit a brick wall.  I could not possibly move to the next rank level because there was no vacant position for me to move into at my Home Unit.  Why, because the position was occupied by a retired Regular Force Member, who was employed on Full Time Class B at the Base near our Unit and did I mention, did not bother to train with our Home Unit.  I have come to find out over the years that this is an ongoing trend.  Pure Reservists (those that have never been Regular Force) have limited career progression.  For the many that have chosen to compete for Full Time positions, have lost out in competitions to ex-regular Force members that got out 1 day to take the full time posn the next.  How does one compete with that.  As well the Regular Force Member that comes to work everyday for his 1 paycheck and works along side an ex Regular Force member who is double-dipping.  There is case on both sides, but in the end, we all have choices to make.  I am happy with my choice and it has paid off for me because not only can I buy back 23 years of full time service, retire in two. I also invested for 28 years and will walk away with two pensions, equal to, if not more than what I now make yearly.  :camo:

I would never turn down a pay increase, but I know what worked for me. If I wanted more I would have signed up for the Regular Force, and could be double dipping as we speak.  Nah, there is Pros and Cons to both, I shall always be a Reservist4Life.

 

[George Wallace]

Interesting post.  Some good points, but I do have a few questions.

...........  As I moved through the ranks I hit a brick wall.  I could not possibly move to the next rank level because there was no vacant position for me to move into at my Home Unit.  Why, because the position was occupied by a retired Regular Force Member, who was employed on Full Time Class B at the Base near our Unit and did I mention, did not bother to train with our Home Unit. 

Why didn't your unit CO, DCO, Admin O, and Chief Clerk, not all get that person off your nominal roll.  That person should have been on the PRL list for whatever unit they were working for, thus freeing up that posn in your Reserve Unit.  That can be done with any Reservist on a Class B, whether they are a "Double Dipprer" or not.

I have come to find out over the years that this is an ongoing trend.  Pure Reservists (those that have never been Regular Force) have limited career progression.  For the many that have chosen to compete for Full Time positions, have lost out in competitions to ex-regular Force members that got out 1 day to take the full time posn the next.  How does one compete with that.  As well the Regular Force Member that comes to work everyday for his 1 paycheck and works along side an ex Regular Force member who is double-dipping.  There is case on both sides, but in the end, we all have choices to make. 

Only comment I can say here, is that those posns should have been filled by "merit" not as a favour to someone on the "Old Boys Net".  Again, that is a Unit CO's choice.

 

[McG]

Ok, so I decided to do some quick comparisons here.

...

Pure dollars and sense, the Reg Force guy would have to live at least 12.5 years past retirement for his total income earned to exceed that of the Reserve Force guy.

Of course, one you start throwing compound interest into things, it screws stuff my calculations up and sweetens the deal for the dude making the component transfer.

Don't forget the guy doing the CT to the reserves only works 330 paid days out of the year.

Ahhh right good point. That makes the reserve guy's annual income total during the 10 years 13500 higher than the reg force guy's, rather than 20000.

So the reg force dude achieves total income parity after 8.5 years.

... and of course, this model does not account for the the Pension deductions that come out of the still regular pay vs the absence of the deduction in the double-dipper pay.  It also doesn't account for the Reserve Travel Allowance that the full-time reservist is entitled.  Apparently the NCR has a case or two where guys are collecting an extra $21.06 for every day they come into the office comuting from Arnprior ... over the years, that's a lot of money that the Reg F guy does not get ... and I've heard pricier examples than this.

Why didn't your unit CO, DCO, Admin O, and Chief Clerk, not all get that person off your nominal roll.  That person should have been on the PRL list for whatever unit they were working for, thus freeing up that posn in your Reserve Unit.  That can be done with any Reservist on a Class B, whether they are a "Double Dipprer" or not.

Most units & formations do not have a PRL.  LFDTS is full of fulltime reservists, but there is no PRL there (not even down in CTC).  The only PRLs that I am familiar with are the NDHQ PRL & the Land Staff PRL (and both serving the NCR).  I assume there are other PRLs, but for most cases that I know of there is no PRL.

 

[George Wallace]

Most units & formations do not have a PRL.  LFDTS is full of fulltime reservists, but there is no PRL there (not even down in CTC).  The only PRLs that I am familiar with are the NDHQ PRL & the Land Staff PRL (and both serving the NCR).  I assume there are other PRLs, but for most cases that I know of there is no PRL.

The looks of it, the PRL may be a little secret that has not been fully exposed or exploited.  We may need a SME to come forward to explain it.

If I remember correctly, CF members who were injured were being put into a holding pattern in ...... I thought.... the PRL.  They did not belong to any one Reserve Unit, and were administered through the CF.  There are also former Reg Force members wearing the hatbadge of their Reg Force affiliation, who also do not belong to any one Reserve Unit.  Under what "program" are they working?  I have seen this across the country, not just in Ottawa/NCR.