Why we pay Reservists what we do (Including Reg v.s. Cl B v.s. Cl C pay, and Double-Dippin')

[George Wallace]

Just thought I would point out, the pension (like a Reg F pension) means SFA without several years to back it up. So those that go on contract for a spell wind up getting a return of contributions, or a couple of dollars towards beer at the end of a career. For a PRes person to bank on the pension, they, like you are looking at min 20 years service. For those of us that can not afford the buy back of service, that means the clock started with contributions start date. Meaning nineteen years from now (I'll be 55 years young at that point).

A CL A reservist might have an opportunity to get two pensions...

After twenty years of service they can expect a monthly check of what?

$150? That's something I suppose. Money is better put in RRSPs at that point though (tax shelter now, with a much greater potential for growth on investments).


Then why bring on the pension? It is a taxable thing, which most of us will just likely take a return of contributions on, at which point in time we will get taxed again. The pension should be an option... There is no ability for us to opt out, with little in the way of short term benefit. Those that stick it out for 20 years on CL B service are in for a very nice little pension (though not as nice as a Reg F pension). Short term Bs, not so much, and CL A can expect to put the money down as payments for a nice new TV.

Now, not saying that we should or should not have a pension, just bringing up the realities of the Res pension plan (which is a nightmare to figure out by the way).

I give up. :brickwall:

So you don't have any idea of what you have said wrong, do you?

First off - A Reservist can not have the opportunity of receiving two pensions from the CF.  (I am sure that is what you were implying.)

Second - A pension is a great deal more than $150 a month after 20 years Reg Force Service.  $2,000 would probably be the minimum.

Third - A smart Service Member would have his/her SISIP coverage continue after Service and fees deducted from their Pension.  The same can be said for their Public Service Dental and Health Plans.

Forth - A smart Reservist, on joining the Reg Force, would buy back their Reserve time as quickly as possible, as it works towards their Pensionable benefits at the end of their career.  The buy back is like paying a bank loan payments; the quicker you pay them back, the less it costs you.

Fifth - An Annuitant would be a fool to give up his/her Reg Force Pension and Benefits to buy into the Reserve Force Pension and less benefits.

 

[kratz]

How many of those days were regular work days vice being on course, in the field, otherwise tasked due to attending required proceedings etc etc ... because the BClass pers would have done time on courses & in the field on TOP of those 5 days per week they worked. I too could spend 10 or 12 weeks on course one year (getting paid for those days as a Class A), and report one night per week ... my pay would then show me working 136 days (52 evenings once per week per year & 12 weeks X 7 days = 84 days on course).

Not quite the same thing.

I was in the unit 6 hours  minimum per day every day that  I paid. I was not on course or backfilling a BA pers. On those days that were a training night, I put in a 10hour work day without the benifit of a CTO that week that the BA pers were given. If I wanted the paycheck for that CTO day, As a class A, I worked that day.

 

[George Wallace]

If I understand it correctly, a Unit can give up to 14 days of Class A time to a member for work.  I would guess that if they wanted a person for longer, they would have to tender a competition for a Class B position.  That would have to go through Area. 

RMS clerks must go insane figuring out how all these contracts work.

 

[Haggis]

If I understand it correctly, a Unit can give up to 14 days of Class A time to a member for work.  I would guess that if they wanted a person for longer, they would have to tender a competition for a Class B position.  That would have to go through Area. 

Darn close, George!

Class A service can be up to:

-12 consecutive "days" (a "day" being  either a full or half day of pay); or
-14 non consecutive days in any month.

Class B vacancies of 89 days or less need not be advertised or competed.  Units can hire direct.  Anything over 90 days must be posted and competed.

 

[Teeps74]

So you don't have any idea of what you have said wrong, do you?

No I do not, and apparently neither do you.

First off - A Reservist can not have the opportunity of receiving two pensions from the CF.  (I am sure that is what you were implying.)

A reservist can not receive two MILITARY pensions. Nor can a reg mbr. I NEVER implied otherwise. Look at the post I responded to. How's about asking as opposed to assuming?

Second - A pension is a great deal more than $150 a month after 20 years Reg Force Service.  $2,000 would probably be the minimum.

Yes, for FULL TIME service, a CL B would be close to that as well. HOWEVER a CL A service pension would come out to far less (as I indicated)... Hence, the theory that a reservist could draw two pensions, one CL A and another civi side.

Third - A smart Service Member would have his/her SISIP coverage continue after Service and fees deducted from their Pension.  The same can be said for their Public Service Dental and Health Plans.

SISIP does a pretty good brief on this when you sign. Everyone should be talking to SISIP.

Forth - A smart Reservist, on joining the Reg Force, would buy back their Reserve time as quickly as possible, as it works towards their Pensionable benefits at the end of their career.  The buy back is like paying a bank loan payments; the quicker you pay them back, the less it costs you.

Again, never argued otherwise. Same is said for long term CL B pensions... Assuming one can afford the buy back.

Fifth - An Annuitant would be a fool to give up his/her Reg Force Pension and Benefits to buy into the Reserve Force Pension and less benefits.

Did I argue otherwise?

 

[Teeps74]

There are three (yes 3) pension streams for reservists.  CL A, some full time service, and full time service. So, a CL A career is not going to get the same in pension as a full time career (nor should it). The some full time service pension is a lot of fun to work out... Don't make any plans when you start working on it. A full time pension is well worth it from top to bottom. Not as robust as the Reg F pension, but it is survivable, especially when looking at mortgage paid off and RRSP contributions.

 

[PuckChaser]

`

I think that`s why he`s got the Unit remaining nameless.

Regardless ... I`ve still got no names in response to my post which asked someone to show me an A Class pers who worked 4 days a week -- I figured I`d get an actual example of that from the guy who posted it as occuring. Guess not.

I worked Cl A 5 days a week, and on some weekends for approx 3 months while I waited for Group to shuffle enough paper to approve it. Was hardly my reserve unit's fault, they gave me as much work as they could so I wasn't living in a cardboard box.

 

[the 48th regulator]

`

I think that`s why he`s got the Unit remaining nameless.

Regardless ... I`ve still got no names in response to my post which asked someone to show me an A Class pers who worked 4 days a week -- I figured I`d get an actual example of that from the guy who posted it as occuring. Guess not.

My hand in the air,

Mind you this was the early 90's, and there was no one joining the military, so the reserve regiments had class A cash to burn as opposed to having a Class B contract approved.

Then again, beers were 2 dollars in the mess and we were allowed to sing the S and M man....

dileas

tess

 

[Michael OLeary]

OK folks, we're done here.  We really didn't need another 16 pages of Reg vs Res banter.  Most people serve on the side of that divide they choose, and all are contributing to the main effort of fulfilling the missions our nation gives us.  Let's leave this be and wait until the system makes any proposed changes before we rehash this again.

Locked

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Jarnhamar]

What's the reasoning behind reservists on class B jobs making less than reservists on class C (who are if I'm not mistaken on par with the reg force)

I'm on a class B contract right now in my home town and I'm making over $400 less a month than I was making while on a class C contract in Petawawa. 
I'm not lying when I say I'm working 5 times as hard, if not more, than I was during my class C contract. At times in Petawawa I felt like I was just getting paid to workout and eat.

Now I'm making $400 less feeling worn out, missing meals at times and feeling like there's not enough hours in a day to get the job done.

I'm not complaining I'm lucky to have work and I enjoy the challange. I'm having a blast working in my home town (for the first time in 13 years) but I don't understand why I'm loosing over $400 a month while working much harder?

I understand why class A pers would make less but why not pay reservists who are working full time on class B the came as what people on class C make?

 

[FDO]

I asked this same question a few months ago because the Reserves I have working for me were doing the same job as the RegF guys. And yes they were working just as hard and in some cases harder. So I asked and I was told it's due to the unique situation Reserves are in. At anytime the RegF members in this office can get a call and be gone anywhere the CF decides they need to go. Also if a PRes wants to terminate their contract it takes 30 days. RegF takes 6 months. Class C is the same as RegF. If called you go where and when the CF wants.

Whether this is fair or not I'm not about to debate. But let me say that if it was me I'd be ok with knowing that I am going to be going home every night for the rest of my contract. If I had my choice I would never have left the comfort of my ship on the East Coast. But my Career Manager had a different idea so now I'm in Toronto. When I first joined the Reserves in 1978 we were paid 60% of the RegF and I did several contracts on the RegF ships. It was kind of disheartening knowing that a kid with less than a year in was being paid a lot more than I was. But then again I could walk away anytime I wanted.

 

[X-mo-1979]

Now I'm making $400 less feeling worn out, missing meals at times and feeling like there's not enough hours in a day to get the job done.

I'm not complaining I'm lucky to have work and I enjoy the challange. I'm having a blast working in my home town (for the first time in 13 years) but I don't understand why I'm loosing over $400 a month while working much harder?

I'm sure some others would say I gladly take a pay cut and work like a dog to actually be in my home province.I know I would.Same could be said for me and a beancounter getting paid the same overseas.Not fair IMHO however he signed a contract and so did I.

The way I always understood it class B was a part time job.Thus the lack of a full wage.It's also a job you can pick,which regular force members dont get to do (unless your drinking buddy is the CM).

 

[dapaterson]

Where's the can of worms animated icon?

The CF has sufficiently bastardized full-time employment, Res and Reg, that it's problematic to discuss the differences between class B and Reg F (class C).  But here goes.  The two main reasons for different Reg/Res scales are:

(1) As discussed, no postings / liability to serve differences.
(2) Training deltas.


Class C is now reserved for "Operations"; certain additional beenfits attach when on class C vs class B (SDB, among others) and one policy goal in providing class C for much of the pre-deployment training is to ensure proper coverage in the event of accident/incident.

There does need to be simplification of full-time reserve pay; I've aruged in other places that ful-time Reserve service should be based on monthly rates of pay, just like the Reg F.  That would permit a single full-time pay system, simplifying admin significantly.  It would also avoid the annual end-Feb cries of "Why is my pay so low?" from pers on class B.

I will quibble with one of your points - "I understand why class A pers would make less".  The current payscales penalize the class A reservist.  Where the full-time CF member generally works 5 days a week (less deployments) but is paid for 7, a class A reservist working 5 days will be paid for 5 - that's 40% less compared full-time pers.  (Annual leave is a non-issue, as part-time Reservists do receive PILL).  Any change to this would however have to move the "class B threshold" from the current 13 days to 5 days - it would also dis-incent units from the reprehensible practice of having soldier work class A monday to Friday, not paying them for the weekend, then repeating for weeks (or months) on end.

 

[Infanteer]

Where the full-time CF member generally works 5 days a week (less deployments) but is paid for 7, a class A reservist working 5 days will be paid for 5 - that's 40% less compared full-time pers.

That is the wrong way of looking at it - do not count "work" as being in and around the desk or company lines.  Duty shifts, support to unit events, or having to come into the DB at 0540 on a Sunday because one of your soldiers stepped on his weiner are all part of being in full-time service.  Hell, guys come in on Saturdays or Sundays to get PERs or other admin done and to make sure stuff is good to go for the next week.

Just because a unit is stood down on weekends doesn't mean a full-time serving member only works 5 days a week.

 

[Haggis]

The two main reasons for different Reg/Res scales are:

(1) As discussed, no postings / liability to serve differences.
(2) Training deltas.

The training delta is a red herring.  The Air Reserve which has a much, much smaller training delta than the Army Reserve, is almost entirely Class B.

The overarching reason for the 15% pay disparity (it used to be 50% so count yourself lucky) is the relative stability afforeded to a Class B member.  As stated above, no postings, you get to choose where and when you work, you can quit at any time (with 30 days notice), you can choose to deploy (or not) and you cannot be involuntarily deployed.

Any change to this would however have to move the "class B threshold" from the current 13 days to 5 days - it would also dis-incent units from the reprehensible practice of having soldier work class A monday to Friday, not paying them for the weekend, then repeating for weeks (or months) on end.

Current policy is that terms of employment in excess of 12 consecutive days or 16 cumulative days in a month must be Class B service.  So, in fact, units cannot employ members on Class A service from Monday to Friday infinitely.

 

[COBRA-6]

That is the wrong way of looking at it - do not count "work" as being in and around the desk or company lines.  Duty shifts, support to unit events, or having to come into the DB at 0540 on a Sunday because one of your soldiers stepped on his weiner are all part of being in full-time service.  Hell, guys come in on Saturdays or Sundays to get PERs or other admin done and to make sure stuff is good to go for the next week.

Just because a unit is stood down on weekends doesn't mean a full-time serving member only works 5 days a week.

Agreed, but I would suggest the average over a year would be closer to 5 days per week than 7 days per week, even within the field force which is only one chunk of CF Regular Force PYs.

On the other hand you have the hours PRes people put in that are either not signed in for or not captured completely (i.e. Class B pers at NDHQ working "for free" at their unit on nights/weekends). 

The situation across the board is so convoluted from original intent that a complete review/overhaul is needed. One example: if I were king any long term Class B/C contract would come with the posibility of being deployed during that time.

 

[MARS]

This has been discussed at length in another thread.  To pick up dapaterson's second point:

About a year ago I was shown the abstract from some study - perhaps done by CDA ( I can't recall) - about the 15% gap.  If I recall, it was, in very general terms, because a RegF member had 15% more knoweldge and training (I use those terms loosely - that may not have been the exact wording, but rather the general idea) than a ResF member of the same rank and MOC.  Again, if I recall correctly, that was an average of all differences studied.  I will see if I can find it again.  Can't just have been a NAVRES thing, and red herring or not, I know what I saw.

I recall making 65% and I recall, as a young (17yr old) ResF AB Boatswain, about 1 day prior to deploying in PROVIDER for the South Pacific, a CPO2 came by and asked/told me to sign a form.  The form being quite lengthy and the good Chief being in a hurry, I quickly asked what it was I was signing (as I was already signing).  He told me that it was a waiver of sorts - that if I jumped ship in some foreign port, I would have to find/pay my own way home.  The days of "green sheeting" had only just passed and were a bad memory for most.

That of course led to me almost jumping ship when some honey in a foreign port asked me to marry her...

What?  I mean, I did seek wise and sage counsel - from my messmates and fellow boatswains - they all roundly said "Go For It!" and "Git 'er done!" and then went back to drinking and watching porn 

Obviously that did not come to fruition.

The 30 day thing - I just researched that.  I had no idea.  All of my time in Ships has been and will be Class C where that does regulation does not seem apply - at least not as a rule.  I have held people for 6 months before - I guess I can't do that to my sailors here in Toronto.  Good to know.

I am also subject to a call for ..yes.. a "posting" - albeit a domestic one - to move some place (if I want to remain employed).  Although, aren't ALL OUTCAN postings (less deployments) voluntary to some degree, even for RegF?  This "posting"of mine is IAW the link below (regret, a DIN link only). I go where the Service requires/tells me to go, which means I move on from Toronto NLT 1 Jan 10.  Don't know where yet - likely back to the Fleet - that is up to my CM.  I get asked what I would like to do - in this case, I asked for a West Coast posting in the Fleet, but the CM is making no promises. Maybe to HQ in QC, maybe Ottawa, maybe East.  This will be my 5th move, I guess.  I mean, I can say no, but then I don't have employment.  Is this strictly a NAVRES thing?  Do the Air and Army reserves not mve their people all over the place?  Heck, just about everyone I know working Class B/C in the Naval Reserve has been posted somewhere at some point...

http://hr.ottawahull.mil.ca/docs/instruction/instructions/instruction_docs/pdf/instruction_20_04_e.pdf

extract - sub para c refers:

CF MIL PERS INSTR 20/04 – ADMINISTRATIVE POLICY OF CLASS “A”, CLASS “B” AND CLASS “C” RESERVE SERVICE

2.4 Definitions and abbreviations - Clarification
The terms set out below are generally misunderstood in the CF as they relate to the Res F. This section provides clarification.

a. Attached posting – Reserve Force (Att Post – Res F). Att posts are used when there is a requirement to assign a Res F mbr, on a temporary basis, to a component, sub-component, element or unit within the CF other than the one in which the mbr is ordinarily held on strength. The mbr continues to fill an establishment position (posn) within the mbr's home unit or remains in the Supp Res;

b. Out of Country Posting – Reserve Force. There may be instances where there is a requirement to use a posting instr message (msg) format for a Res F mbr who will serve outside Canada for a period in excess of 365 days in order to ensure that the mbr receives all associated posting (vice att post) benefits and allowances. The mbr will continue to hold a Res F establishment posn concurrent with the out of country posn. This is to ensure that the mbr remains eligible for the appropriate posting benefits and allowances of a posting, without jeopardizing their entitlement to various Res F benefits;

c. Posting – Reserve Force. A posting of a Res F mbr, other than an out of country posting, is used when a mbr is posted from the establishment of one unit to the establishment of another unit within the same Res F sub-component;

d. Temporary Duty – Reserve Force (TD – Res F). TD is used when a member is required to attend a course or perform a duty, for a period of six months or less, at a place outside the location of the member’s home unit. TD includes the travelling time to the place of TD and return;

 

[dapaterson]

Sigh - I'm stil looking for that can of worms icon...

Class A leadership are also engaged in work outside of their duty hours - planning, co-ord, etc doesn't nicely fit into 3-6 hours a week.  That's also not paid service - some units have folks sign for a half day or a day a month extra to compensate for the additional effort, but that's a stop-gap measure.

Haggis:  Air Res is a bad, bad, bad example - they are overwhelmingly ex-Reg F, thus trg deltas aren't there.  Looking at the Res F as a whole, the majority is Army - where the trg deltas are there, no ifs, ands or buts.

The compensation models used by the CF, Reg and Res, full-time and part-time, are in desperate need of a top-to-bottom review.  The "Team" approach needs to be abandonned - so no more "extra base pay because we make you move" but rather "a three year sliding allowance because you moved" - so the folks with 19 years straight in Ottawa get less than the folks who do pick up and move every year few years.  No "bilingual bonus spread across everyone" but rather "you maintained your language profile - you get more".

MARS:  The NavRes has mobilized, for lack of a better word.  Permanently manning operational vessels 24/7 with Reserve crews is a great stretch of the NDA - what part of "other than continuing full-time service" as a definition of "The Reserve Force" is misunderstood?  The Army is equally guilty, and the Air Force leads the parade of corruption of those rules.  (And how you can keep working full-time in the same job for years after leaving the Reg F but be deemed a Reservist is an absurd fallacy - designed solely to line pockets)

We've built a fine house of cards with full-time Reserve service (one I inhabited for a decade); I fear it's about to come tumbling down around us.  The impact will not be pretty.

We made it cheap and easy to hire full-time reservists and placed no meaningful controls on the system.  No prioritization, no rank controls, no efforts to ensure the demand was sustainable, not a glance on the impact of the draw on the units providing the personnel.  But now that we've got thousands on the payroll, the inevitable correction will be painful to the institution (when we finally stop doing things we shouldn't be doing in the first place) and to the individuals (who will suddenly learn that their 7 years of full time service get them 30 days notice, no more).

 

[COBRA-6]

Sigh - I'm stil looking for that can of worms icon...

Class A leadership are also engaged in work outside of their duty hours - planning, co-ord, etc doesn't nicely fit into 3-6 hours a week.  That's also not paid service - some units have folks sign for a half day or a day a month extra to compensate for the additional effort, but that's a stop-gap measure.

Haggis:  Air Res is a bad, bad, bad example - they are overwhelmingly ex-Reg F, thus trg deltas aren't there.  Looking at the Res F as a whole, the majority is Army - where the trg deltas are there, no ifs, ands or buts.

The compensation models used by the CF, Reg and Res, full-time and part-time, are in desperate need of a top-to-bottom review.  The "Team" approach needs to be abandonned - so no more "extra base pay because we make you move" but rather "a three year sliding allowance because you moved" - so the folks with 19 years straight in Ottawa get less than the folks who do pick up and move every year few years.  No "bilingual bonus spread across everyone" but rather "you maintained your language profile - you get more".

MARS:  The NavRes has mobilized, for lack of a better word.  Permanently manning operational vessels 24/7 with Reserve crews is a great stretch of the NDA - what part of "other than continuing full-time service" as a definition of "The Reserve Force" is misunderstood?  The Army is equally guilty, and the Air Force leads the parade of corruption of those rules.  (And how you can keep working full-time in the same job for years after leaving the Reg F but be deemed a Reservist is an absurd fallacy - designed solely to line pockets)

We've built a fine house of cards with full-time Reserve service (one I inhabited for a decade); I fear it's about to come tumbling down around us.  The impact will not be pretty.

We made it cheap and easy to hire full-time reservists and placed no meaningful controls on the system.  No prioritization, no rank controls, no efforts to ensure the demand was sustainable, not a glance on the impact of the draw on the units providing the personnel.  But now that we've got thousands on the payroll, the inevitable correction will be painful to the institution (when we finally stop doing things we shouldn't be doing in the first place) and to the individuals (who will suddenly learn that their 7 years of full time service get them 30 days notice, no more).

I agree.

The pain train is coming, and we're all standing on the tracks.

 

[Infanteer]

The situation across the board is so convoluted from original intent that a complete review/overhaul is needed. One example: if I were king any long term Class B/C contract would come with the posibility of being deployed during that time.

The compensation models used by the CF, Reg and Res, full-time and part-time, are in desperate need of a top-to-bottom review.  The "Team" approach needs to be abandonned - so no more "extra base pay because we make you move" but rather "a three year sliding allowance because you moved" - so the folks with 19 years straight in Ottawa get less than the folks who do pick up and move every year few years.  No "bilingual bonus spread across everyone" but rather "you maintained your language profile - you get more".

Bingo.  I think you both have it here.

So, to take the discussion beyond a gripe, let's start an overhaul.

Here's my 3 picks:

1.  Only two types of service - part time (sign a contract agreeing to duty X amount of days a year) or full time (contracted to be on duty 24/7 for X months) - all pay is the same.

2.  I like dapaterson's idea of sliding benefits for actually doing something vice something that may happen.  It really sucks never getting settled in your home as a junior officer....

3.  One of the biggest shitshows I ever saw was watching a Reserve Warrant Officer, who got out of the Regs after 25 come over from the Reserves to collect Reg Force WO pay along with his pension while his peer in the same company who stayed in simply got his Reg Force Pay.  Lets have a single pension for uniformed service that transfers seamlessly.  A guy can do a 3 year VIE, go to the Reserves for 4 years and try civvie life out, get fed up with the reg force after 8 years and go back to the reserves for 2 and then spend two more back in the Reg Force on a tour and then back to the Regs until he gets his pension.  Granted the calculation will be a bit off but it can work.

Changing pay means changing the way we view training Reservists, but that's another story.