Who Was The Best & Worst Defence Minister? [changed from Liberal DF]
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Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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Well I should have been more specific as I was interested in the time period of the Jean Chreatin and Martin era, but the responses so far have been quite interesting.
Michael Dorosh
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Centurian1985 said:
Hughes also ensured men died with a useless rifle in their hands and had an entrenching tool with a hole in the blade, and lobbied long and hard for his son to get a posting as a divisional commander despite an unsuitability for the job. Currie wisely thought better of it. We can all agree that Sir Sam had energy and got things done (building Valcartier and indeed the CEF from scratch) but by October of 1914 I should think his usefullness was at an end. Even the PM could tolerate him only so long. Still, he might be rated favourably among others - but only because of how poor the others may or may not have been, not on how good Hughes was.
You know, had Canada been used for reinforcements instead of fighting as a national contingent, our losses may have actually been a lot lower, though so too would our national status. As it was, the Canadians were often brought in to do tough jobs and heavy lifting and thereby suffered greater losses. I don't think anybody would seriously have wanted it any different, but something to think about when praising Hughes for keeping the Canadians together.
The Ross Rifle scandal and the MacAdam shovel make the LSVW deal look like a clerical error, IMO.
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Michael Dorosh said:
No argument there!
In 1900 Major General Hutton, who had been fired from his position as GOC Commanding the Canadian Militia after a fight with the Liberal government, wrote the GG from South Africa a number of letters which are available in the Library and Archives of Canada. In one he opined that Hughes was insane, but that was not an obstacle to political success and he probably would become Defence Minister when the Conservatives regained power. This was just after Hughes had written several letters to newspapers in Canada and South Africa criticising his British superiors - the Liberals, being crafty devils, had managed to send the Conservative Defence Critic (Hughes) to South Africa - and complaining that he deserved at least two Victoria Crosses.
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Old Sweat said:
I remember that now. That was really over the top.
Isnt that why the Order of Canada was invented? A big medal for no specific reason other than you knew somebody? ;D
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Howvwer, Huges made some good things:
-Raised a few regiments (R22R, 1st and 2nd motorized machine guns batallions, PPCLI, etc.)
-Created a lot of bases (Chilliwack, Valcartier, Caunnaught, Borden, etc.)
And most: He realy believed in the military in Canada, he believed in soldiers, wich almost no politicians ever did.
-Raised a few regiments (R22R, 1st and 2nd motorized machine guns batallions, PPCLI, etc.)
-Created a lot of bases (Chilliwack, Valcartier, Caunnaught, Borden, etc.)
And most: He realy believed in the military in Canada, he believed in soldiers, wich almost no politicians ever did.
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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Black Watch said:
Did Hughes raise the motorized MG units, or did they approach him? I thought it was the latter, and he just rubber stamped the idea.
I thought Hughes had a bad record as far as the French-Canadians went? The Van Doos didn't go over with the First Contingent.
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VanDoos didn't go over with the 1st contingent cause the regiment wasn't raised at that time.
From Montreal they grabbed 3 coys from the CGG, 3 coys from the Vic's Rifles and same from the Carabiniers Mont Royal... all the active Militia immediately available from Montreal. They were cobbled together into the 14th Bn CEF (aka Royal Montreal Reg't).
The 22nd Bn would follow a little later
From Montreal they grabbed 3 coys from the CGG, 3 coys from the Vic's Rifles and same from the Carabiniers Mont Royal... all the active Militia immediately available from Montreal. They were cobbled together into the 14th Bn CEF (aka Royal Montreal Reg't).
The 22nd Bn would follow a little later
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I'll kick in my nomination (now that we're not restricted to Liberals)...
OK, she wasn't really the FULL Minister (only the "Associate", when we had such a beast), but the Hon Mary Collins has to rank right near the top of those incompetents who have trod the sainted halls of the Executive Floor at 101 Colonel By.
This political hack imposed the LSVW on the Army, then directed it be built in Kelowna, over the violent objections of the project director, the army and any common sense. She interfered with RAM-D testing and directed that the Army ignore the 18 failures that the vehicle suffered before going into service. Beyond that, her sole claim to fame was having CANEX ban nudie magazines and keeping strippers out of the Calgary JR's Club...
OK, she wasn't really the FULL Minister (only the "Associate", when we had such a beast), but the Hon Mary Collins has to rank right near the top of those incompetents who have trod the sainted halls of the Executive Floor at 101 Colonel By.
This political hack imposed the LSVW on the Army, then directed it be built in Kelowna, over the violent objections of the project director, the army and any common sense. She interfered with RAM-D testing and directed that the Army ignore the 18 failures that the vehicle suffered before going into service. Beyond that, her sole claim to fame was having CANEX ban nudie magazines and keeping strippers out of the Calgary JR's Club...
Michael Dorosh
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geo said:
Right, but I was wondering whose doing that was - does Hughes get the credit for being far-sighted enough to raise a French language regiment?
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Worst: too numerous to mention in my lifetime/service (50 and 33 years respectively). As I'm still suffering for what Hellyer did, he's obviously deserving of special mention. Cottenelle and Eggleton were worse than useless. Kim Campbell was completely clueless, consistent with her "performance" as Justice Minister and Prime Minister. Most others are simply forgotten. In keeping with the traditional Lieberal manner of demonstrating their respect for the Armed Forces by appointing spineless idiots to the job, witness their choice of Defence Critic. There is no better reason for celebrating their ejection from office than that he is not the Minister - except for every other reason.
Best Lieberal: Bill Graham. Much as I despise his party and the vast majority of those in it, he did come across as a genuinely decent fellow who simply fell in with a bad crowd.
Best overall: Perrin Beatty, who unfortunately did not stay in the job long enough and who, like us, seemed to have the rug pulled out from beneath him by the rest of his government.
I just dug out my old copy of "Challenge and Commitment", the 1987 White Paper. In his foreword, he said:
"Shortly after the Prime Minister asked me to become Minister of National Defence, I had the pleasure of meeting with a group of young Canadian Forces officers stationed in Germany.
"These dedicated young Canadians, who will help form the next generation of our country's military leadership, were candid about what they looked for from their Government. They listed four goals:
- Honesty. A frank admission that the Forces had to deal with serious problems which would take time to overcome.
- A contemporary and manageable mandate. A clear statement of what their Government expected them to do.
- The resources necessary to do the job, and,
- Perhaps most important of all, the clear moral support of Canadians for their work on behalf of Canada.
"I agree fully with those priorities. This new defence policy, the first in 16 years, provides a modern and realistic mandate to the Canadian Forces and commits the Government to giving the Forces the tools to do the job.
"For much of the 1960s and 1970s, Canada's security and our defence relationship with the other democracies were given a low priority by the Federal Government. The Forces were cut in size and much of their equipment was allowed to become obsolete. As a result, Canada's security and sovereignty were seriously weakened and both our allies and potential opponents received mixed signals about our reliability as a NATO partner.
"The challenges that Canadians must face between now and the next century go to the survival of humanity itself and to whether Canada will continue as a free and independent country. The new defence policy outlined in this White Paper will help ensure for our children a sovereign and free Canada in a more peaceful world."
I posted the whole thing because, almost twenty years on, it makes an interesting comparison to today's situation.
I really only meant to post the first two paragraphs, as I was one of those "young Canadian Forces officers stationed in Germany". We'd never heard of Mr Beatty, and so were somewhat cautious in our approach to him. He spent a lot of time chatting with us in the Mess on his first visit, as he did on at least one subsequent one. He openly admitted that he knew nothing about military matters, but was keen to learn. He asked clear, intelligent questions and followed these up with more, based upon the answers that he received. It was obvious that he was paying attention and was genuinely interested. We were quite impressed with him.
It was an exciting couple of years, which, unfortunately, ended rather abruptly and I still harbour some resentment for the betrayal.
For NCdt Lumber: I can appreciate that you're "new to politics, hell ... new to life". I am not, and I can tell you from long and bitter experience in more matters than Defence that the Lieberals more than deserve their "bashing" and that they are more than "simply ... mind numbingly incompetent". They are lying, thieving, arrogant, self-serving, corrupt ***********. I can forgive you for voting Lieberal this once. I am not usually that generous in such matters, but we are all entitled to at least one mistake. "Give them some credit"? Okay, they are very good liars and thieves who have raised the bar for arrogance, self-serving, and corruption. Please provide an example of one or more "competent and inspiring liveral (sic) cabinet ministers". None in my lifetime have inspired me to do anything more than vomit.
Best Lieberal: Bill Graham. Much as I despise his party and the vast majority of those in it, he did come across as a genuinely decent fellow who simply fell in with a bad crowd.
Best overall: Perrin Beatty, who unfortunately did not stay in the job long enough and who, like us, seemed to have the rug pulled out from beneath him by the rest of his government.
I just dug out my old copy of "Challenge and Commitment", the 1987 White Paper. In his foreword, he said:
"Shortly after the Prime Minister asked me to become Minister of National Defence, I had the pleasure of meeting with a group of young Canadian Forces officers stationed in Germany.
"These dedicated young Canadians, who will help form the next generation of our country's military leadership, were candid about what they looked for from their Government. They listed four goals:
- Honesty. A frank admission that the Forces had to deal with serious problems which would take time to overcome.
- A contemporary and manageable mandate. A clear statement of what their Government expected them to do.
- The resources necessary to do the job, and,
- Perhaps most important of all, the clear moral support of Canadians for their work on behalf of Canada.
"I agree fully with those priorities. This new defence policy, the first in 16 years, provides a modern and realistic mandate to the Canadian Forces and commits the Government to giving the Forces the tools to do the job.
"For much of the 1960s and 1970s, Canada's security and our defence relationship with the other democracies were given a low priority by the Federal Government. The Forces were cut in size and much of their equipment was allowed to become obsolete. As a result, Canada's security and sovereignty were seriously weakened and both our allies and potential opponents received mixed signals about our reliability as a NATO partner.
"The challenges that Canadians must face between now and the next century go to the survival of humanity itself and to whether Canada will continue as a free and independent country. The new defence policy outlined in this White Paper will help ensure for our children a sovereign and free Canada in a more peaceful world."
I posted the whole thing because, almost twenty years on, it makes an interesting comparison to today's situation.
I really only meant to post the first two paragraphs, as I was one of those "young Canadian Forces officers stationed in Germany". We'd never heard of Mr Beatty, and so were somewhat cautious in our approach to him. He spent a lot of time chatting with us in the Mess on his first visit, as he did on at least one subsequent one. He openly admitted that he knew nothing about military matters, but was keen to learn. He asked clear, intelligent questions and followed these up with more, based upon the answers that he received. It was obvious that he was paying attention and was genuinely interested. We were quite impressed with him.
It was an exciting couple of years, which, unfortunately, ended rather abruptly and I still harbour some resentment for the betrayal.
For NCdt Lumber: I can appreciate that you're "new to politics, hell ... new to life". I am not, and I can tell you from long and bitter experience in more matters than Defence that the Lieberals more than deserve their "bashing" and that they are more than "simply ... mind numbingly incompetent". They are lying, thieving, arrogant, self-serving, corrupt ***********. I can forgive you for voting Lieberal this once. I am not usually that generous in such matters, but we are all entitled to at least one mistake. "Give them some credit"? Okay, they are very good liars and thieves who have raised the bar for arrogance, self-serving, and corruption. Please provide an example of one or more "competent and inspiring liveral (sic) cabinet ministers". None in my lifetime have inspired me to do anything more than vomit.
Hughes deserves no credit for the raising of the Vandoos. Far from it; he was virulently anti-French and went so far as to appoint a member of the Orange Lodge to run recruiting in Quebec. He also hated the permanent force and went so far as to describe the officers present as a bunch of bar room loafers in a meeting with a visiting British general (who had commanded a number of those present in South Africa). It was under his watch that the Canadian militia (permanent and non-permanent) was assessed as the worst military force in the British Empire.
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Teddy Ruxpin said:
That name (Collins) sounded familiar but didnt know why. Once you mentioned the banning of strippers from messes, then I remembered! Didnt know she was related to the LSVW fiasco...
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"Mary Poppins" was from BC (N. Vancouver, IIRC) and insisted that Western Star get the contract regardless of performance issues. The intent was to (1) give BC a military contract in order to maintain her credibility with her voters and (2) to prop up Western Star.
Never mind that Freightliner/Mercedes was willing to build their vehicle in Burnaby...(again IIRC - I'm trying to blot the memory out)
Madness...
Never mind that Freightliner/Mercedes was willing to build their vehicle in Burnaby...(again IIRC - I'm trying to blot the memory out)
Madness...
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Teddy Ruxpin said:
Although the Unimog is probably the finest vehicle of its type in the world (and so much more versatile than any other), the fact still remains that Jean Cretan would still have preferred his Chevy over a Mercedes, so the CF was not going to get any vehicle that had the Mercedes Logo on its front (even though we had them in numbers in CFE).
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I know. From my original post:
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