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Who the Hell do these guys think they are?

Bane,

Kirkhill is right. The Queen is "the Head of State" or the ceremonial head who attends various public functions and ceremonies such as state dinners with diplomats, though she is represented here by the Governor-General. The Prime Minister is "the Head of Government" and holds true political power within Canada. One must differentiate between "Heads of State" and "Heads of Government" in some cases such as our own nation or with the UK, though in other cases, those roles are both played by the same person, as with the US President.



 
No he is not right.
First - on the legal derivation of the word 'legitimate', it is the MP's that turn agreements into law. Regardless, DION IS NOT NEGOTIATING A TREATY.
Second - what happens internationally effects local ridings, this is why MP's, and MPP's, from all sorts of parties go to all sorts of places. Notice the two other MP's at the bottom of the article....
Third - this kind of international leg stretching by opposition MP's is good, common in many countries and a total non-event.  Reference the article abstract I posted above.

  If someone doesn't understand that law makers often go abroad to speak, see, listen and learn about the world fine. Understandable and maybe that person will be upset until they understand that it is quiet routine and healthy for a nation.  But then you have people that make mountains out of mole hills simply to rag on Dion because he's a Liberal (I am not). 
 
IN HOC SIGNO said:
...I think it's strange that Dion is going to Bali too, Mr Harper did receive the most seats in Parliament the last time we voted, was legally requested to form the Government and has done so for the last two years. He has the authority and the mandate of the country to represent us all....if Mr Dion doesn't think he has a mandate then maybe he should stop abstaining from voting against Mr Harper's government in Parliament.

+1, In Hoc! :salute:

Traveling now to Bali but still hasn't made his way to Afghanistan like he promised here (traveling to hot places).




Oops, sorry, I meant to say, here (traveling to other hot places).
 
If harper can go to an international meeting as the opposition leader and discuss what he would in the War on terror if he became PM, and nobody had a problem with that, then Dion has every right to go to Bali as the Opposition leader and state what he would do if he was elected the next PM in the probable spring election, it's the same thing. Harper pissed off  a lot of international leaders at the last meeting, with his "I'm not signing unless they sign first " approach, and brokered a deal which doesn't hold any country to any real standards, so basically no deal at all, so the international community may be interested in what Dion may have to say.

And Bane is right, the queen is the head of state, Harper cannot implement any bill without Royal assent, unlike Bush, who has the last word on all legislation, and has the veto power on all bills. Harper likes how Bush runs things, often bypassing debate in the House, he created positions and filled it with unelected, unaccountable Conservative Senator, who basically has carte blanche to do whatever Harper wants him to do, and turned every vote into a confidence vote, the opposition should be able to challenge the government and modify bills to reflect the will of all Canadians, not just Torie supporters, without being forced into an election. While i don't agree with the Libs abstaining from votes, I can see they were forced into it, by the larger, more powerful kid on the playground, the political version of " be quiet, or I'll beat you up!". The government is trying to stop bullying nationwide, yet they are the biggest culprit.
 
There's no great harm in anyone (the Environment Minister, the Leader of HM's Loyal Opposition or the village idiot – if (s)he's not one or the other, already) attending the Bali Conference. This conference is very, very preliminary: a first opportunity, only, for scientists to present views and for nations and groups to discuss possibilities. Nothing, nothing at all, can be decided or agreed in Bali. Everyone can rant and rave, whinge, promise and threaten but no one, repeat no one can decide anything.

When, eventually, nations meet to agree another treaty, if they ever do, then only duly accredited national delegates – ministers and bureaucrats representing the executive only – will be allowed into the room to speak.
Bali is a waste if time and money. If we are sending more than a half dozen delegates at public expense then we are wasting taxpayer's money.

The PM is the chair of the "Committee of the Queen's Privy Council;" as such he is the executive. Despite his (dubious) decision to submit decisions on sending troops into battle to parliament, tradition and constitutional convention says that HM (read the PM) need not submit treaties to parliament.
 
              I know the Prime Minister has de facto authority over military matters, but Parliament needs to ok international trade agreements do they not?  I seem to recall, barely, Congress and Parliament both being required to ratify the CAN-US free trade agreement in 1989, with a number of procedural gymnastics used to get it through.  Isn’t this the case with most international agreements/treaties?


BNA ACT
VI. -- DISTRIBUTION OF LEGISLATIVE POWERS.
Powers of the Parliament.

#2 The Regulation of Trade and Commerce.
#7 Militia, Military and Naval Service, and Defence.
 
This reference is succinct and come from the BC Government.

Canadians and International Law
The federal government is responsible for negotiating international treaties with other nations.  The Department of Foreign Affairs and International Relations (DFAIT) frequently takes the lead in negotiating such agreements, although other federal departments may also play a role if the agreement relates to their focus. 

Once negotiated, an international agreement must be “ratified”, indicating that the government of Canada intends to abide by it.  Ratification is done by the federal cabinet (the Executive).  No approval is required from Parliament or the provincial governments.



However, while ratifying a treaty means that Canada agrees to abide by the treaty, it does not mean that the treaty automatically becomes part of Canadian law (enforced by the Canadian courts).  A treaty becomes binding on individuals and the government in Canadian courts, the treaty must be implemented.  Implementing a treaty means passing legislation to enact the requirements of the treaty in Canadian law.  See, for example, the federal Migratory Birds Convention Act, which implements the Migratory Birds Convention. 

This two-step process occasionally causes problems.  A treaty that is binding on Canada may not be enforceable by Canadian citizens.  In some cases the constitutional authority for implementing a treaty may lie with the provinces.  In such cases it can be difficult to all 10 provinces to implement the necessary legislation (although the federal government may be able to pass its own laws in such cases).  In other cases the Canadian government doesn’t pass any implementation legislation, arguing that existing Canadian laws are already consistent with the new treaty obligations (which may, or may not, be correct). 

This is not to say that a treaty will have no impact on Canadian law unless implemented.  It is clear that in some cases the judge-made common law will be influenced by treaties signed or principles of customary international law.  And if there are doubts about the true meaning of a Statute it will sometimes be interpreted in accordance with international law.  However, the Courts will not enforce international law unless the Canadian law provides for it in some way. 

Some treaties create their own enforcement mechanisms.  Thus, even if the Canadian courts will not enforce the agreement, an international tribunal might be able to rule against Canada if it ignores an international agreement.  The best known examples of such tribunals are in trade agreements, such as the North American Free Trade Agreement, which allow investors to sue a government to recover lost investments (a process which has been criticized by environmentalists). However, multilateral environmental treaties generally do not create such enforcement powers.


The federal government is responsible for negotiating international treaties with other nations.  The Department of Foreign Affairs and International Relations (DFAIT) frequently takes the lead in negotiating such agreements, although other federal departments may also play a role if the agreement relates to their focus. 

Once negotiated, an international agreement must be “ratified”, indicating that the government of Canada intends to abide by it.  Ratification is done by the federal cabinet (the Executive).  No approval is required from Parliament or the provincial governments. 

However, while ratifying a treaty means that Canada agrees to abide by the treaty, it does not mean that the treaty automatically becomes part of Canadian law (enforced by the Canadian courts).  A treaty becomes binding on individuals and the government in Canadian courts, the treaty must be implemented.  Implementing a treaty means passing legislation to enact the requirements of the treaty in Canadian law.  See, for example, the federal Migratory Birds Convention Act, which implements the Migratory Birds Convention. 

This two-step process occasionally causes problems.  A treaty that is binding on Canada may not be enforceable by Canadian citizens.  In some cases the constitutional authority for implementing a treaty may lie with the provinces.  In such cases it can be difficult to all 10 provinces to implement the necessary legislation (although the federal government may be able to pass its own laws in such cases).  In other cases the Canadian government doesn’t pass any implementation legislation, arguing that existing Canadian laws are already consistent with the new treaty obligations (which may, or may not, be correct). 

This is not to say that a treaty will have no impact on Canadian law unless implemented.  It is clear that in some cases the judge-made common law will be influenced by treaties signed or principles of customary international law.  And if there are doubts about the true meaning of a Statute it will sometimes be interpreted in accordance with international law.  However, the Courts will not enforce international law unless the Canadian law provides for it in some way. 

Some treaties create their own enforcement mechanisms.  Thus, even if the Canadian courts will not enforce the agreement, an international tribunal might be able to rule against Canada if it ignores an international agreement.  The best known examples of such tribunals are in trade agreements, such as the North American Free Trade Agreement, which allow investors to sue a government to recover lost investments (a process which has been criticized by environmentalists). However, multilateral environmental treaties generally do not create such enforcement powers.

As to your comments about the BNA - The legislature legislates.  It writes laws.  Laws bind Canadians, including the Heads of Government and State.  Within our current framework of laws the Executive and the Executive only is necessary to ratify an international agreement and have it binding on Canada.  If Canadians don't like the treaty then they are at liberty to chuck out the Executive and repudiate the treaty after the next election.  That is the extent of Canadians' controls on the Executive branch of Government.  Some Canadian Governments have sought political cover in "ratification" votes that should more properly be described as "take note" debates because the Executive is always free to ignore the will of the people and parliament with the sole exception of Money Bills.

The US is in the middle of an unholy row just now between an Executive that has the powers to declare and prosecute war and a legislature that doesn't have a consensus on the Executive having those powers with efforts being made to limit the Executive.  They are reduced to the expedient of trying to limit the flow of Money to the Government.



Our Executive has a much freer hand than the US Executive.
 
      It is interesting that a treaty can still be binding on Canada yet not on Canadians per se, I didn't know that.  I guess we're seeing this with the Kyoto treaty now.  I guess I was right and wrong; Parliament is needed for the meaningful implementation of a treaty, but has zero power over the signing thereof.  Learn something new everyday. 

Apologies, another thread off the rails.
 
No worries Bane.  It's a mutual learning experience round about here.

Cheers.
 
Harper likes how Bush runs things Chretien, often bypassed debate in the House, he created positions and filled them with unelected, unaccountable Conservative Liberal Senators, who basically have carte blanche to do whatever Harper Chretien wanted them to do, and turned every vote into a confidence vote.  The opposition should be able to challenge the government and modify bills to reflect the will of all Canadians, not just Torie Liberal supporters

Edited for accuracy...

;D
 
Bigrex said:
Well seeing as Harper only has a minority government, he doesn't have the confidence of the majority of Canadians, therefor he cannot truly stand up and say he represents all of Canadians. The role of a minority government is to work with the opposition parties to forge ahead, not to force feed them into adopting their policies, no matter how ill conceived they may be. I know I'll get flamed for my comments, but I only hope that Harper's totalitarian regime will fall at the next election, or at least come close enough to make him realize he doesn't have as firm a grasp on Canada as he thinks, or as tight as he has on his own caucus, forcing him to rethink some of his strategies.

  Please inform me of how this is some sort of totalitarian regime. I will be real blunt hear. When ever I hear that kind of claptrap I challenge people to back it up well back it up BOY. We have had clear concise leadership now. The PM Say's here is what we are going to do here are my 5 things. when they have been worked on and agreed to then we will move on. Not a list of hundreds of things that are priorities that nothing ever gets done on.
  Now BIGREX since the majority of members of this board are sworn to uphold the constitution and you have just stated that the PM who has been da*n good to the members of the military so far has become our enemy spell it out please I wish to hear. Tell me and all the others on this board how he is so BUSHISH, NEO-CON(whatever that means),SUPER RIGHTWING or TOTALITARIAN.  I have no problem with anyone who wishes to disagree on a subject just say it with out all the RHETORIC.
 
Boxkicker said:
  Please inform me of how this is some sort of totalitarian regime. I will be real blunt hear. When ever I hear that kind of claptrap I challenge people to back it up well back it up BOY. We have had clear concise leadership now. The PM Say's here is what we are going to do here are my 5 things. when they have been worked on and agreed to then we will move on. Not a list of hundreds of things that are priorities that nothing ever gets done on.
  Now BIGREX since the majority of members of this board are sworn to uphold the constitution and you have just stated that the PM who has been da*n good to the members of the military so far has become our enemy spell it out please I wish to hear. Tell me and all the others on this board how he is so BUSHISH, NEO-CON(whatever that means),SUPER RIGHTWING or TOTALITARIAN.  I have no problem with anyone who wishes to disagree on a subject just say it with out all the RHETORIC.

Unless the Oath has changed (and I don't think it has - but stand ready to be corrected), the vast majority of the members of this board have sworn "Allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, her lawful heirs and successors".  United States officers swear to uphold their constitution.

I think you have some valid points there - they'd be taken more seriously if presented as less of a "rant".
 
AFAIK,

I, _________, do swear (solemnly declare) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, her heirs and successors according to law. SO HELP ME GOD (delete if declaration)
 
And in our system if a party receives the majority of seats and can govern with the help of other parties they are authorized to represent us all. It's true that they have to seek consensus in order to stay on as Government but they don't have to take members of the opposition to international conferences in order to make sure everyone is happy. they represent us all, by the authority of HM the Queen, as per the oaths they took when they were sworn in as Ministers of the Crown.
I never liked or voted for Trudeau, Turner, Chretien or Martin but that doesn't mean they weren't valid leaders of the country or that they didn't have to do things in good faith for those who didn't vote for them.
 
Trudeau, Turner, Chretien or Martin

It's hard to say any of these PM's actually did anything but sit on the fence and hmm and haa about stuff.  Definatly were not leaders, unlike Harper who is a leader.

As for Bigrex's comments, Harper does work with the opposition.  The problem he faces is the other parties oppose everything, not just most things but everything.

The opposition not supposed to oppose everything just because they are the opposition.  They are there to help run the country as well and work with the elected government to make sure that bill passed are for the good of everyone.

Stephen harper is getting more done with a minority government than the liberals did in all their years with a majority.
 
Farmboy said:
It's hard to say any of these PM's actually did anything but sit on the fence and hmm and haa about stuff.  Definatly were not leaders, unlike Harper who is a leader.

As for Bigrex's comments, Harper does work with the opposition.  The problem he faces is the other parties oppose everything, not just most things but everything.

The opposition not supposed to oppose everything just because they are the opposition.  They are there to help run the country as well and work with the elected government to make sure that bill passed are for the good of everyone.

Stephen harper is getting more done with a minority government than the liberals did in all their years with a majority.

I think part of the problem lies with the term "opposition" - I actually see their role as the "criticition" (new word).  I think they should criticize (or critique) - in the pure sense - what the government of the day proposes.  I don't think they need to "oppose" everything, despite their official title.

Although generally a Conservative supporter (they don't ALWAYs get my vote - I've been known to vote independent occasionally), I don't think they were any better when in opposition.  It's an inherent problem in the adversarial system.

I like to pay attention to the workings of the Government of NWT - by virtue of the way the system is set up, they are basically always in the position of having a "consensus government".  I watch with interest - not because I think "consensus government" is THE answer, but because I think some form of such MAY be at least a partial answer to the problems of our present adversarial system.

Edited to add:  I think Trudeau WAS a "leader".  The fact that I don't like where he lead us is not enough for me to accuse him of "sitting on the fence".  I think he was on the wrong SIDE of the fence.  The others listed were, in my opinion, fence sitters - although I think Chretien's status as such is open to debate.
 
Bigrex, how could a minority government, able to be felled on any vote of cofindence that the loyal opposition actually showed up for, be called "totalitarian"?  ???

I must be missing something...


G2G
 
Good2Golf said:
Bigrex, how could a minority government, able to be felled on any vote of cofindence that the loyal opposition actually showed up for, be called "totalitarian"?  ???

I must be missing something...


G2G

It goes right along with the CPC and Harper being called "Bullies" There is no reasoning behind the names that they are called, it's just that the act of doing it encourages the weak willed, and meek feel somehow righteous and powerful.

The Libs and all the rest are scrambling to gain some kind of moral high ground.  But their moral high ground is based off the kind of superiority that a coward exhibits when he laughs at someone stronger and more able than he, when that person slips or makes a mistake.
 
Well for one thing, the Harper governing  technique is totalitarian. He has stated that the opposition has to accept everything he puts forward, no amendments, or he'll call an election, knowing full well that the Liberals are not ready for one. That is how they are bullies, they force their will on everyone, and let everyone know that if confronted by a weaker individual, they'll happily beat the crap out of them.

@ Boxkicker

Who the hell do you think you are to call me Boy , you arrogant little jerk! I am no longer in uniform, so I can say anything I want to about our Government, I am not bound by any pledge of allegiance to the Tories. When I was in uniform , I went where I was told to, but not now.

Harper may have done good things for the Military, but he hasn't done squat for veterans, the Tories vote against any motion to better our lives, appeal legal decisions that favor the veterans, disregard election promises made to veterans (VIP for widows, fair compensation for veterans affected by defoliants over a 25+ year span, and disband the VRAB), and force veterans to start legal battles to get fair treatment over several different issues, currently 3 different class actions against the government on behalf of veterans. When YOU become a disabled veteran barely scraping by because of policies of the government, when that government has more money than they know what to do with, having disability claims denied because you didn't go to the doctor every week, or have money taken out of one pocket every time you get a little extra in the other one, just to see the politicians getting huge bonuses and not be subjected to the same policies we have to endure, when they have the power and money to change it, but will not unless they are forced. Only then do you have the right to say Harper is NOT my enemy, and the enemy of all my brothers and sisters who are no longer in uniform.  And if Dion gets in as PM, and he fails to fix these issues, then HE will become my enemy.
 
Bigrex said:
....
Who the hell do you think you are to call me Boy , you arrogant little creep! I am no longer in uniform, so I can say anything I want to about our Government, I am not bound by any pledge of allegiance to the Tories. When I was in uniform , I went where I was was told to, but not now.

Harper may have done good things for the Military, but he hasn't done squat for veterans, the Tories vote against any motion to better our lives, appeal legal decisions that favor the veterans, disregard election promises made to veterans (VIP for widows, fair compensation for veterans affected by defoliants over a 25+ year span, and disband the VRAB), and force veterans to start legal battles to get fair treatment over several different issues, currently 3 different class actions against the government on behalf of veterans. When YOU become a disabled veteran barely scraping by because of policies of the government, when that government has more money than they know what to do with, having disability claims denied because you didn't go to the doctor every week, or have money taken out of one pocket every time you get a little extra in the other one, just to see the politicians getting huge bonuses and not be subjected to the same policies we have to endure, when they have the power and money to change it, but will not unless they are forced. Only then do you have the right to say Harper is NOT my enemy, and the enemy of all my brothers and sisters who are no longer in uniform.

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Armyvern
The Milnet.ca Staff
 
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