Who does what in policing?/Pressures (split fm BC Murder thread)

[brihard]

BTW, this set-up explains the schizophrenic nature of the RCMP, with the bulk* of the force made up of small town/country police officers and the national group made of high-end, complex criminal investigators and security experts, but nothing in the middle as they are without working knowledge of large town/cities policing and investigations realities.

Almost entirely bang on with the exception of this part. The RCMP are also the provincial police in the contracted provinces. This includes functioning as municipal police for several cities with 100k+ population, and many in the five figures. They also provide district or provincial level teams tackling major crimes, organized crime, drug enforcement, and so on. This is most pronounced in British Columbia, but exists in most of the provinces to a greater or lesser extent.

Because these mid sized to large cities have the greatest number of RCMP members, many of the Mounties you find employed elsewhere in the force have worked in that environment. Talk to the guys guarding embassies in Ottawa or doing national security in Edmonton, and you’ll find members who worked the street or one drug units or prolific offender units in Surrey or Moncton or North Vancouver. This experience is spread throughout the organization.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

With my apologies for not being as precise as could be, Brihard, but to me, anything under 250k population is "small town".

But even assuming 100k as the small town treshold, I would like to see the list of 100k and above towns where the RCMP acts as the police force. It would be a very short list indeed AFAIK.

Looking at the list of Canadian cities with 100k+ population (2016 census), there are 54 cities in Canada with that level of population. The following have RCMP detachments for police:

Burnaby; Richmond; Langley; Coquitlam; Kelowna; and, Red-Deer.

Not even the home of the RCMP, Regina, employs them as police force. And, obviously, B.C. likes to cheap-out on providing municipal police forces  ;D.

Anyway, it's all really a matter of opinion, and based on my experience with the RCMP (and I was a federal "ad-hoc" prosecutor for Federal crimes in Quebec for a while - so I dealt with them extensively), I stand by my view but agree that we may disagree on such matters.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

With my apologies for not being as precise as could be, Brihard, but to me, anything under 250k population is "small town".

But even assuming 100k as the small town treshold, I would like to see the list of 100k and above towns where the RCMP acts as the police force. It would be a very short list indeed AFAIK.

Looking at the list of Canadian cities with 100k+ population (2016 census), there are 54 cities in Canada with that level of population. The following have RCMP detachments for police:

Burnaby; Richmond; Langley; Coquitlam; Kelowna; and, Red-Deer.

Not even the home of the RCMP, Regina, employs them as police force. And, obviously, B.C. likes to cheap-out on providing municipal police forces  ;D.

Anyway, it's all really a matter of opinion, and based on my experience with the RCMP (and I was a federal "ad-hoc" prosecutor for Federal crimes in Quebec for a while - so I dealt with them extensively), I stand by my view but agree that we may disagree on such matters.

North Vancouver, Surrey, Prince George, every city and town outside the Lower Mainland

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

With my apologies for not being as precise as could be, Brihard, but to me, anything under 250k population is "small town".

But even assuming 100k as the small town treshold, I would like to see the list of 100k and above towns where the RCMP acts as the police force. It would be a very short list indeed AFAIK.

Looking at the list of Canadian cities with 100k+ population (2016 census), there are 54 cities in Canada with that level of population. The following have RCMP detachments for police:

Burnaby; Richmond; Langley; Coquitlam; Kelowna; and, Red-Deer.

Not even the home of the RCMP, Regina, employs them as police force. And, obviously, B.C. likes to cheap-out on providing municipal police forces  ;D.

Anyway, it's all really a matter of opinion, and based on my experience with the RCMP (and I was a federal "ad-hoc" prosecutor for Federal crimes in Quebec for a while - so I dealt with them extensively), I stand by my view but agree that we may disagree on such matters.

You forgot Moncton, NB!  Everyone always forgets about NB!  ;D

 

[brihard]

With my apologies for not being as precise as could be, Brihard, but to me, anything under 250k population is "small town".

But even assuming 100k as the small town treshold, I would like to see the list of 100k and above towns where the RCMP acts as the police force. It would be a very short list indeed AFAIK.

Looking at the list of Canadian cities with 100k+ population (2016 census), there are 54 cities in Canada with that level of population. The following have RCMP detachments for police:

Burnaby; Richmond; Langley; Coquitlam; Kelowna; and, Red-Deer.

Not even the home of the RCMP, Regina, employs them as police force. And, obviously, B.C. likes to cheap-out on providing municipal police forces  ;D.

Anyway, it's all really a matter of opinion, and based on my experience with the RCMP (and I was a federal "ad-hoc" prosecutor for Federal crimes in Quebec for a while - so I dealt with them extensively), I stand by my view but agree that we may disagree on such matters.

All good, certainly no offense taken. There’s really no hard and fast line that defines ‘big city’ policing; really things just scale up in terms of how many people are on and what sort of specialized units and assets are available to support investigations. Also whether supporting assets are full time / dedicated (eg emergency response teams, criminal collision investigators, drugs/gangs, etc) versus being part time capabilities maintained off the sides of desks within patrol units.

Maybe if you gave more concrete examples of what you’re thinking we could bat it around some? The biggest difference I see with major municipalities is they have dedicated patrol/response units who essentially don’t carry investigative files at all. If anything that arguably hampers the investigational altitudes of their members through the first third to half of their career as they might spend seven or eight years on the road going call to call before getting to touch warrants, sources, investigative followup, etc.

That said there are of course things that larger more well resources municipalities can also do very well because they can throw more specialized dedicated teams at a task.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Colin: Surrey has it's own municipal police force. As for North Vancouver, its population is 85k - well bellow the 100k mark I set for my post.

Moreover, I note again, that it seems to be B.C. that has a problem cheaping-out on municipal police forces.

While I was being generous by using 100k population as threshold, I was by no means picking random figures. 100k population is the bar set by the Quebec Police act for the compulsory provision of level one policing services, the lowest regulated level that requires round the clock patroling and requires the capability of criminal investigation of thirty-one specified crimes and offences.

To compare to B.C. (and why I say they cheap-out), Every municipality in Quebec with a population of 50k+ must provide it's own police force -either alone or as a regional police.

I believe the same figures are used by Ontario but haven't look at their Police Act for a while.

Brihard, let me get back to you on that after I get time to spin it in my mind.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

You forgot Moncton, NB!  Everyone always forgets about NB!  ;D

Again, Humphrey, Moncton has a pop of 85k - bellow my threshold of 100k - thus not on my list.

 

[mariomike]

Looking at the list of Canadian cities with 100k+ population (2016 census), there are 54 cities in Canada with that level of population.

I guess this is the reference?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_largest_municipalities_in_Canada_by_population

You forgot Moncton, NB! 

If this is about municipalities across Canada,

As a taxpayer, and former employee, there are some positive aspects, in my opinion, about municipalities operating their own services.

In fact, used to be, if you wanted a job with the municipality, you had to be a recent graduate of one of its high schools.

It was felt that gave members a greater personal knowledge of the city’s conditions, and a feeling of greater personal stake in its progress.

You felt a sense of allegiance to the city. Because, that was your home town, and, like it or not, you knew there was no transferring out. Worst they could do was send you to Scarborough. 

 

[tomahawk6]

In the US every city and municipality with the exception of Alaska has its own police force in addition to State police posts. Many towns have their own police whose members attend a State police type of training. In fact lately its been a topic of discussion that native villages have hired former felons as police. Then of course are the VPO's, village police officers. I would imagine that the RCMP are stretched thin.

https://dps.alaska.gov/ast/home

 

[brihard]

Colin: Surrey has it's own municipal police force.

No it doesn't. Surrey remains the RCMP's largest detachment, with about 800 sworn members or so. Surrey's a half million people officially; anecdotally, damned near every home in the municipality has a rental unit (a great many undeclared), because for most people that's the only way to afford home ownership there. The actual population is probably considerably higher, but undeclared rental units don't get caught by the census. In any case, the recently elected mayor had as a core part of his platform the establishment of a municipal police service. He's working on it. Choosing my words carefully here- the platform was pushed using cost estimates and service provision forecasts that have raised some eyebrows so high they're no longer connected to some folks' faces. The RCMP is a MUCH cheaper option that any of the competing services in B.C. for the simple reason that the RCMP pay is still lagging very badly behind them. Add in the 10% federal subsidy for contracted RCMP services, and going with the RCMP can, at present, be about 25% cheaper for a major municipality. That won't last much longer now that the Mounties have unionized, but it's what got things to this point.

100k population is the bar set by the Quebec Police act for the compulsory provision of level one policing services, the lowest regulated level that requires round the clock patroling and requires the capability of criminal investigation of thirty-one specified crimes and offences.

To compare to B.C. (and why I say they cheap-out), Every municipality in Quebec with a population of 50k+ must provide it's own police force -either alone or as a regional police.

I believe the same figures are used by Ontario but haven't look at their Police Act for a while.

I checked the Ontario Police Services Act and found no specific tie to population. It looks like a municipality of any size could contract the OPP if they so desired. In practice, though, you're right that (to the best of my knowledge) every sizeable municipality has its own service or is part of a regional one.

As a taxpayer, and former employee, there are some positive aspects, in my opinion, about municipalities operating their own services.

There are definitely some advantages- local control over hiring, not having to compete with other services so much for a finite number of trained recruits, greater control over uniforms, equipment, benefits, etc. That can all cut both ways though too- that are economies of scale.

In the US every city and municipality with the exception of Alaska has its own police force in addition to State police posts. Many towns have their own police whose members attend a State police type of training. In fact lately its been a topic of discussion that native villages have hired former felons as police. Then of course are the VPO's, village police officers. I would imagine that the RCMP are stretched thin.

https://dps.alaska.gov/ast/home

Policing in the U.S. is in some cases decentralized to the point of being an unmitigated disaster. There are a ton of little podunk towns with their own 'police services', often an appointed chief and a small handful of officers. The stories of graft and nepotism you hear out of some of these small forces is unreal. We probably all have an appreciation for how slimy and incestuous tiny-town politics can be; there's no political independence. Many of these communities cannot afford to pay their officers worth a damn, and equipment can be well below standard. Many of these services have to effectively 'self fund' through traffic ticket revenue or civil forfeiture, which brings many of its own problems.

And then, yeah, there's Alaska... Wow.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My friend is a constable there, it's likely most of the experienced remembers of the force will not transfer over as they would lose out pension wise. Most last 6-8 years in Surrey before they burn out, so attrition rate will be high and with no way of getting a nicer posting you need to offer much higher wages. My friend is hoping for North Van as he is around 7 years there and one of the senior constables on the street, completely and utterly done with what goes on there, every day and night.

 

[brihard]

My friend is a constable there, it's likely most of the experienced remembers of the force will not transfer over as they would lose out pension wise. Most last 6-8 years in Surrey before they burn out, so attrition rate will be high and with no way of getting a nicer posting you need to offer much higher wages. My friend is hoping for North Van as he is around 7 years there and one of the senior constables on the street, completely and utterly done with what goes on there, every day and night.

On the flip side, VPD is sweating bullets. They’re gonna haemorrhage members to Surrey. Think of how many of their members live in Maple Ridge, Langley etc and would love the chance to work a half hour or forty minutes closer to home. I’ve heard from a VPD friend that their senior management are bracing for the possibility of losing up to two hundred to laterals.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Policing in the U.S. is in some cases decentralized to the point of being an unmitigated disaster. There are a ton of little podunk towns with their own 'police services', often an appointed chief and a small handful of officers. The stories of graft and nepotism you hear out of some of these small forces is unreal. We probably all have an appreciation for how slimy and incestuous tiny-town politics can be; there's no political independence. Many of these communities cannot afford to pay their officers worth a damn, and equipment can be well below standard. Many of these services have to effectively 'self fund' through traffic ticket revenue or civil forfeiture, which brings many of its own problems.

And then, yeah, there's Alaska... Wow.

What you just basically described is New Brunswick to a T! 

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Well, the Surrey thing is a red hering, as we know they are in the process of getting their own, hence I kept them off the list:

https://www.surrey.ca/police/default.aspx

;D

As for small town USA, what do you expect when you elect your local Sherriff every four years. ???

 

[mariomike]

On the flip side, VPD is sweating bullets. They’re gonna haemorrhage members to Surrey.

If Surrey is a newly created service, everyone sworn in on the same day should have the same seniority date. Thus making it irrelevant.

I wasn't a police officer. But, I worked for the same municipality just shy of 37 years. Quitting one municipality to hire on with another municipality is not a decision to be taken lightly. There is more than just pension involved. There's loss of seniority. Seniority in a union shop , which municipalities are,  basically rules your life.

Eg: Toronto is surrounded by the municipalities of Halton, Peel, York and Durham. But, I was never aware of a haemorrhage of Toronto police officers ( or any other Metro employees ) quitting to go work for them.

In fact, it was the other way around.

Eg: Would you rather work for NYPD or LAPD, or Mayberry?

As you gain seniority, you can bid for a station with lower call volume, if that is what you are looking for.

I don't have any scientific data to support this, but it always seemed to me that the busiest stations had the highest morale.

 

[FJAG]

In the US every city and municipality with the exception of Alaska has its own police force in addition to State police posts. Many towns have their own police whose members attend a State police type of training. In fact lately its been a topic of discussion that native villages have hired former felons as police. Then of course are the VPO's, village police officers. I would imagine that the RCMP are stretched thin.

https://dps.alaska.gov/ast/home

It's really not much different here T6.

The RCMP at heart is a federal police force.

Provinces are constitutionally entitled to have their own provincial police forces and some do (e.g. Ontario and Quebec) but the smaller provinces contract with the RCMP to provide the equivalent of a provincial police force.

Similarly all municipalities, whether urban or rural can have their own police forces. Almost all big and medium sized cities do. Where there are true provincial police forces, the smaller municipalities may contract with the provincial police force to provide that service. Where there is no true provincial police force, the municipalities may contract with the RCMP to provide those services.

In the result the RCMP provides all federal policing, much of the provincial policing and quite a bit of municipal policing.

The RCMP isn't so much stretched thin. It recruits based on how many federal and contracted positions they need, but there are times where there are manpower/recruit flow shortages. One problem that they have is that their pay and benefits lag behind some of the bigger municipalities so there is some bleeding off of trained people. Oh, and don't get me started on stress leave.

We do have one advantage in that most of our larger urban centers are metropolitan areas where all the municipal governments and police forces have been amalgamated unlike in the US where many of the large cities are a hodge podge of independent municipalities and their individual police forces.

Neither do we have County Sheriff departments as you know them. Not every province has counties and those that do generally do not do policing. Similarly our various provincial justice systems has fairly much given up the county court structure.

:cheers:

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Provinces are constitutionally entitled to have their own provincial police forces and some do (e.g. Ontario and Quebec) but the smaller provinces contract with the RCMP to provide the equivalent of a provincial police force.

Similarly all municipalities, whether urban or rural can have their own police forces. Almost all big and medium sized cities do. Where there are true provincial police forces, the smaller municipalities may contract with the provincial police force to provide that service.

Not quite correct, nor exact, FJAG.

First of all, policing is not something the provinces are "entitled" to do - as if it was a choice to take it away from the Federal governement. It is not: It is at its basis a Provincial power (for anyone interested, I suggest a read of Peter Hogg's Constitutional Law of Canada, Chapter 19.5 [ Justice - Policing ]). The federal power for policing is for Federal territories, national security [including Border security] and Federal statutes. Otherwise they may also provide policing to provinces that request it and contract for it. All provinces have so contracted except Quebec, Ontario and Nfld-Labrador.

As for municipalities, not "all" can have their own police force. As policing is a Provincial power, it depends on that province's legislation in municipal/police matters. For instance, in Quebec, under the Police Act, all municipalities of 50k+ inhabitants must have their own police force (it's not their choice and they cannot "contract" for it with the SQ or the RCMP), and what level of policing services is to be provided (with six levels, one being the lowest and 6 the most comprehensive) depends on the size of the municipality and is enforced through provincial regulations. However, municipalities of less than 50k must use the services of the Surete du Quebec. Again, it's not a choice for those municipalities.

I honestly don't know how it works in Ontario, but suspect that municipalities cannot just "decide' to have or not a police force. In fact, my reading of the Ontario Police Services Act's first five sections leads me to believ that in Ontario, First-Tier municipalities (whatever that is) and regional municipalities don't have a choice: they must provide policing, and if they chose not to have their own individual one, they must have a police force in conjunction with another municipality having the same obligation. Should they wish to contarct out the services (third option, so to speak), then it must be a contract with the O.P.P. I don't see anything that limits the size of municipalities that can contract with the O.P.P. (unless the term "First-Tier" does so limit the size).

BTW, even if only three provinces don't use the RCMP, they account for 63% of the National population. If you also exclude the population from those cities in the other seven provinces that have their own police force, the RCMP really only polices 20% of Canadians. 

 

[ballz]

All provinces have so contracted except Quebec, Ontario and Nfld-Labrador.

I'm only understanding so much of the conversation so perhaps I'm wrong here, but there are RCMP in Nfld for sure, which I believe are contracted by the province. My understanding is that the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary do the major* two centers of St. John's and Corner Brook, and then the RCMP are contracted to the police the rest of the province. There's always RCMP from Deer Lake to Clarenville patrolling the highway when you are driving across the province, for example.

*Relative to Newfoundland... St. John's being ~120k and CB being ~30k.

 

[PMedMoe]

Maybe this topic needs a split?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Well, here is what the RNC itself says it does: https://www.rnc.gov.nl.ca/about-us/what-we-do/

Now, don't get me wrong, there are RCMP detachments in all three provinces I mentionned, but they only operate in the purely Federal fields of jurisdiction (as I expressed them before). As for Nfld-Lab., perhaps they have some contract with the RCMP to provide some services to the province as a supplement to the RNC. On that, I have no information. Considering that until not so long ago the R,N.C. constables did not carry arms, it's quite possible that some such contratc exist, even today.