• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

What would keep you in the army?

Tom:  :-[

Coming from you, that is like praise from Caesar.

I am fairly certain that some of the finest soldiers that ever put on a uniform were down and out at some point in their life. There should be no discounting of someone who is capable of getting their hands dirty and is looking for some adventure. If they come with a head full of brains (and hopefully the common sense to go with) all the better. People who are more worried about how much money they should be making aren't probably going to get far, because there are almost always better and easier ways to make a buck.

We also have to keep in mind that this isn't neccesarily a new phenomenon: my buddy's dad got in just as Korea was winding down, and he had an expression for the military: Mechanized welfare. People couldn't get a real job, so they joined the army. It has always happened, and always will. But the difference between then and now is the policies in place. Then, if you didn't do your job, there was a burly Cpl to sort you out, and after you were done picking up your teeth with broken fingers, you got to work. Now, you have to BEG people to do their job. True story (well, true enough for army purposes): at 1 Field Amb, a MCpl I know told me that he was told he had to say "please" when getting "soldiers" to sweep the hangar floor. As in "Would you please sweep the hangar floor" . Un-fooking-believable. And getting somebody punted now requires an officer to have an open line to the JAG office (no wonder why we have so many of them now.....). And lord help you if somebody didn't dot an "i" or cross a "t" on an assessment from 4 years back..... The humanity. I suspect soon that every supervisor will be issued a JAG as a fire-team partner, just so that anything said or done can be witnessed, notarized, filed in triplicate, etc,etc.

Al
 
    A date with an army chick.  Got everything else I need.  ;D

 
Allan Luomala said:
Recruiters are looking too hard for anybody to join to let mercenary tendencies rule out someone's employment.

There is obviously some truth to that statement.   However, I believe it is in the minority of instances.   I doubt that kincanucks is out there dragging every Joe Blow of the street, irrigardless of their suitability.   The recruiting forum is strewn with posts that contradict your claim.

Newsflash: what I highlighted in your quote is probably what someone would say to a recruiter when pressed on if they are joining for the money, thereby negating your first argument.

Only if you're making assumptions.   I said those circumstances are none of your business.   If someone wants to tell that to a recruiter then good luck getting an offer.

Just because you come in with a different perspective (which we can all appreciate) doesn't give you the right to criticize what some people with a great deal more of experience state

Why not?   Just because you have considerably more experience in the military than I do does not mean you have the same claim when it comes to overall life experience.   Or is it just that you don't like opposing views?

: some people stick around solely for the money

I never disputed that.   There are obviously problems that need to be fixed, but for people in the stage of their career where they are sticking around for the money, making less wouldn't matter.   I think you are an example of that, Al.   You made a recent post in another thread where you said you stuck around after 10 years because of the 20-year pension.   Doesn't that point in your career qualify as "lived through shitty pay"?

The more they pay us, the less toys we can buy.

I'm not an accountant, but this claim doesn't sit right with me.   I would think that the budget is set on estimations of expenditures--salary is one of those.   Are you saying that the budget doesn't change no matter the level of expenditures of certain things?   Don't take this as a sarcastic jibe.   I really don't know, that's why I'm asking.

So, if your big educated brain can find a way to only keep in people who are willing to give 100%, I would be willing to advocate pay raises all around, but if it means pulling away an incentive for all the deadwood so they get their sorry asses off the gravy train, I WOULD advocate a pay reduction. I'll be waiting for your proposal (but I won't be holding my breath......)

Thanks for the challenge, Al.   However, you know as well as I that there isn't a single solution.   But, if you think that dropping pay is going to get rid of the deadwood, then you are living in a dreamland.   It is more likely that the troops "willing to give 100%" will ditch than the deadwood.   Dropping pay would just be the final straw for the 100% givers.   Afterall, the deadwood would then have to go out find themselves another job.   That means work and effort.   Goes against the deadwood philosophy, don't you think?

Edit: Excuse me... the reference above about the 10 yrs/20 pension thing is actually in this thread.
 
Why not?  Just because you have considerably more experience in the military than I do does not mean you have the same claim when it comes to overall life experience.  Or is it just that you don't like opposing views?

I like opposing viewpoints, but not when they are stated in the fashion that you did. Saying "Open your eyes" to people who have gone through all of this shite with them wide open is a little much, don't you think.

Whatever your reasons are for joining, fair enough. To state that you didn't join before, due to personal reasons, without getting into them, just sounds like that the money wasn't good enough, so you waited until it was. I know a lot of people that joined in less than desirable circumstances, and they made out OK. They weren't eating filet mignon every night, and washing it down with Cristal, but they (and their families) survived.

I think that the majority of people with any amount of time in have enough friends on the "outside" to know that the grass isn't always greener. That's what keeps a lot of people in.

I think that me staying in for my pension is a right that I earned, and if you think that makes me hypocritical , good on you. I know that I have never underperformed (at least to the CF standard..... I know now that I didn't perform to my idea of 100% all the time, but that is my cross to bear), and I was always ready to "ruck up and move out" when the order was given.

I suppose when you have walked a mile in my shoes, you will understand what I am on about. It's good that you have always wanted to join, and did something in the real world beforehand, so you at least have a point of reference. It's something I don't really have, but that isn't to say that I haven't been exposed to what goes on outside the main gate. But, when you see what I see, day in day out, that is, people who are in it just for the pay, and have no desire to actually be a soldier, well, you will be able to pass judgment then. When you finally encounter, as I have, people who say "I don't want to go to war [and do what they have been paid to do for their whole careers]!!! I just joined for a paycheck!!!!!" Well, sunshine, then it never is a good day to die for the Crown, is it??? When it comes down to brass tacks, you train your whole career to possibly one day make the supreme sacrifice for your country. If you can't live with that eventuality, then the CF isn't for you. Not much of a recruiting tag line, but I guess the truth rarely is.

Al
 
Allan Luomala said:
And getting somebody punted now requires an officer to have an open line to the JAG office (no wonder why we have so many of them now.....). And lord help you if somebody didn't dot an "i" or cross a "t" on an assessment from 4 years back..... The humanity.
Ahhh this is true enough...but I did manage to punt one last summer Al. It took some time and a hell of a lot of work though, plus a couple of trips to HQ. I'll PM you his name....you should recognize it!!
 
I'm sorry you took "open your eyes" as an insult.  If you actually take the entire phrase of "open your eyes a little bit and see things on a broader perspective", you might realize that it wasn't intended the way you took it.

Anyway.... You and the other posters haved raised good, valid points in this thread.  You might not believe this, but I do completely understand your point of view.  I just don't completely see eye to eye with you on a couple of your recommendations.
 
-More and better training all the time, not just before work ups for deployment.

-Less politics at the lower level of the troops,

-No more long 20-25 year contracts. Make a overall contract as the Reserves have for a "indefinite period" of service up until retirement,
Then Offer full time contracts in 3-5 year stints. In order to renew your contract you have to prove that you have done a good fair job as indicated on your PER.

-Overhaul the Per/Pdr programme so that it has a full effect on the overall situation. Eliminate the buddy buddy system that we see all to often. The people whom write them should not be directly employed with you.

-offer incentives for highly skilled workers, the ones whom can and will do a job above and beyond what it takes.

-start hiring people with lower education levels again, they seem to be some of the best workers the military has ever had. Some will argue that we need a highly educated well trained military, Yes I agree, but we do not need a Infantry Regiment, a Ships Company or an Airforce Sqn full of members whom all have University degrees.  The military can train our members to be the best, Being specific to one type of educated people is going in the wrong direction.

- Offer lower rent on Military housing, encourage members to live on base, where the operational goals can be met quickly with out the hassle of members during snow storms and that saying I cannot make it to work due to the weather etc

-have the Canex overhauled so that it will support our members fully, meaning no taxes on the items bought, a staff of Military and Civie personally. That way the needs are met for whom they are actually their to serve.

-Loose the people whom are confortable with their cushy jobs in support positions.  Whom think that the Cbt Arms are lesser of us all. We all work to support them, they are the primary reason why we have all these other trades.

- make it so that every member of the CF deploys over to an operational theatre and does patrols

-have cross training with in the trades, so that every member of the Army can and will be able to use their weapon and basic soldiering skills to support operations fully.

- have the Airforce stand up a specialized unit that supports their overseas operations, They would be tasked to do security and patrols much like the Army does. Except the Airforce would not have to rely on the Army to carry these out. Rather be able to supplement them properly.

-deploy the proper equipment for over seas deployments. Ie troops on the ground Helo's and Fast Air available from our own assets, not some one else'.

Reduce the Officer Corp to a realistic level with the level of troops and assest's we actually have.
 
Cheers all


 
CTD said:
- make it so that every member of the CF deploys over to an operational theatre and does patrols

And this would acheive what ? Where would you rather i be ? In the air using EO/IR, Radar, ESM and the KA-107A doing recce and Surveillance for you guys or walking the streets of Kandahar ?

-have cross training with in the trades, so that every member of the Army can and will be able to use their weapon and basic soldiering skills to support operations fully.

Correct me if i am wrong but, was this not the idea behind the SQ course ?

- have the Airforce stand up a specialized unit that supports their overseas operations, They would be tasked to do security and patrols much like the Army does. Except the Airforce would not have to rely on the Army to carry these out. Rather be able to supplement them properly.

Was tried before.  Anyone on KINETIC roto 0 remember how useful ASF was ?

-deploy the proper equipment for over seas deployments. Ie troops on the ground Helo's and Fast Air available from our own assets, not some one else'.

I beleive that this is the idea behind SCTF



 
  "- have the Airforce stand up a specialized unit that supports their overseas operations, They would be tasked to do security and patrols much like the Army does. Except the Airforce would not have to rely on the Army to carry these out. Rather be able to supplement them properly."

And if that works out, we can send them on spec ops through the stargate.
 
CTD said:
-More and better training all the time, not just before work ups for deployment.

-- Offer lower rent on Military housing, encourage members to live on base, where the operational goals can be met quickly with out the hassle of members during snow storms and that saying I cannot make it to work due to the weather etc

We are the second highest paid military in the world. Buy an all wheel drive car and a condo and get yourself to work.

-- make it so that every member of the CF deploys over to an operational theatre and does patrols

- have the Airforce stand up a specialized unit that supports their overseas operations, They would be tasked to do security and patrols much like the Army does. Except the Airforce would not have to rely on the Army to carry these out. Rather be able to supplement them properly.

OOOOOOH thats a great idea!! We have Infanteers leaving the army in droves due to boredom and a lack of opportunity to deploy and do ANYTHING, and you want to give our jobs to air force techs!! Brilliant!

Why not have pilots flipping eggs and generals manning the C6? Because we pay people to do certain jobs, and put in alot of time and money to train them.

Not so some Air Force technician can massage his ego because he regrets not being an infanteer in the first place. Trust me, it's always greener on the other side. Besides, I would rather have an operational helo or Herc once or twice a year, than AF cooks patrolling the streets of Kandahar.
 
Furthermore, I was unaware that my job was so goddamn easy that anyone can do it in their spare time!!

To think I've been wasting all this time training, when an Aviation tech can do his job, then pick up a rifle and a ruck and go do mine too!!

Why not just fire the whole army and have the AF do the ground stuff themselves? Just because they can't get a helo off the ground with a section in it with all their kit, or manage to get us a herc that both doors open at the same time does'nt mean that they are'nt trying!! Maybe they just need some more duties - like infanteer!!

ranting.....
 
GO!!! said:
Furthermore, I was unaware that my job was so goddamn easy that anyone can do it in their spare time!!

To think I've been wasting all this time training, when an Aviation tech can do his job, then pick up a rifle and a ruck and go do mine too!!

Why not just fire the whole army and have the AF do the ground stuff themselves? Just because they can't get a helo off the ground with a section in it with all their kit, or manage to get us a herc that both doors open at the same time does'nt mean that they are'nt trying!! Maybe they just need some more duties - like infanteer!!

ranting.....

I feel your pain GO!!!

I have enough duties as it is and things to learn/remember/keep current....without having to do a job, on a part-time basis, that is better done by professionals such as yourself.

Like i said a few posts above, where would you rather i be ?
 
aesop081 said:
I feel your pain GO!!!

I have enough duties as it is and things to learn/remember/keep current....without having to do a job, on a part-time basis, that is better done by professionals such as yourself.

Like i said a few posts above, where would you rather i be ?

Fixing your plane, shooting a C6 out the door, electronically sensing things....from the air, you know, your job!! What you joined to do!  :D

No offence to you, but why does everyone think that being an infanteer is so easy? I notice this seems especially prevalent in certain AF units (cough 408 sqn cough) where some of the loadies feel the need to get out of their chopper and assign arcs to the infanteers when they get out on an insertion.....we would all be better served if you would get back in and fly away, rather than trying to do my job.

 
GO!!! said:
No offence to you, but why does everyone think that being an infanteer is so easy? I notice this seems especially prevalent in certain AF units (cough 408 sqn cough) where some of the loadies feel the need to get out of their chopper and assign arcs to the infanteers when they get out on an insertion.....we would all be better served if you would get back in and fly away, rather than trying to do my job.

No offence taken, 11 years as a sapper taught me a thing or 2 about infanteers
 
CTD said:
-Overhaul the Per/Pdr programme so that it has a full effect on the overall situation. Eliminate the buddy buddy system that we see all to often. The people whom write them should not be directly employed with you.

WTF?  I agree the pdr/per system is not perfect but if somebody is not directly employed ( immediate supervisor ) with you,  how in the H*** can they assess your performance?


CTD said:
-offer incentives for highly skilled workers, the ones whom can and will do a job above and beyond what it takes.

I believe this is done already through signing bonuses for skilled applicants ( college, technical trades, etc )

CTD said:
-start hiring people with lower education levels again, they seem to be some of the best workers the military has ever had. Some will argue that we need a highly educated well trained military, Yes I agree, but we do not need a Infantry Regiment, a Ships Company or an Airforce Sqn full of members whom all have University degrees.  The military can train our members to be the best, Being specific to one type of educated people is going in the wrong direction.

You've got to be kidding. I don't believe a university degree is required of any NCM trade. True you don't need to be a rhodes scholar to be effective but the pace at which technolgy is advancing and operations becoming more complex, including for infantry regiments, you can't tell me that an uneducated soldier is preferable to a high school, college, technical school or university graduate.

.
CTD said:
- Offer lower rent on Military housing, encourage members to live on base, where the operational goals can be met quickly with out the hassle of members during snow storms and that saying I cannot make it to work due to the weather etc

It doesn't snow on PMQ's?

CTD said:
-Loose the people whom are confortable with their cushy jobs in support positions.  Whom think that the Cbt Arms are lesser of us all. We all work to support them, they are the primary reason why we have all these other trades.

I spent 12 years cbt arms before joining the AirForce.  For the most part the attitude you describe is a myth.  Most of the people I have encountered have nothing but respect for the Cbt Arms.  Maybe the odd good natured jab but I always say if you can't take a joke don't be one.

CTD said:
- make it so that every member of the CF deploys over to an operational theatre and does patrols

Why not have them perform duties within their MOC's?  Sorry MOSID's.  I do agree that everone should be deployable but why the patrols?

CTD said:
Reduce the Officer Corp to a realistic level with the level of troops and assest's we actually have.

Agreeed.













 
CTD, you have some good points, which could probably easily be resolved, but some others on your "wish list" wouldn't be possible unless you reprogrammed every human being that put on a uniform (they try in Basic, but they don't succeed on every level).

The good (IMO):
-More and better training all the time, not just before work ups for deployment.

The problem that I see with this is, well, money. The training you get during deployment (and which crept into deployments, i.e Bosnia) is from another budget, seperate from the unit/brigade. So, of course, EVERYBODY loves the training, they just don't love paying for it. I said it before, and I'll say it again: cost-accounting has been the death of the military.

-start hiring people with lower education levels again, they seem to be some of the best workers the military has ever had. Some will argue that we need a highly educated well trained military, Yes I agree, but we do not need a Infantry Regiment, a Ships Company or an Airforce Sqn full of members whom all have University degrees.  The military can train our members to be the best, Being specific to one type of educated people is going in the wrong direction.

I tend to agree with this, as going after the techie crowd to attract death-techs (Inf) isn't a very smart move. I would go after the small town boys, who are good at hunting, tracking, working. Big city nerds, are, well, big city nerds.

-Loose the people whom are confortable with their cushy jobs in support positions.  Whom think that the Cbt Arms are lesser of us all. We all work to support them, they are the primary reason why we have all these other trades.

The "Soldier First" mentality is definitely the way to go. What happened over the last 10-20 years (or perhaps even further back) where some tradesmen felt that the combat arms types were an inconvenience for them (the classic example is clerks who felt that they should exist to only help other clerks), and couldn't be bothered to learn or maintain their basic soldier skills. If you can't handle a weapon, and man a defensive position, at the least, there is no need for you, no matter how skilled you might be at flipping eggs, filing memos, or turning a wrench.

Reduce the Officer Corp to a realistic level with the level of troops and assest's we actually have.

This one I definitely agree with: we seem to have a disproportionately large officer corps, especially when you take into account the phantom units that we hear about, but don't really seem to exist. I know the theories about how we have to be prepared to stand up these units in case of war, but I don't know how cost effective it is to have these positions filled, and having these people not doing anything.

One thing that I'm also not a big fan of, and it might not seem like it's relative to this, but I think it is: how is it that officer's are entitled to a career, right from the get go, and NCO's just do whatever is expected of them until, wham, all of a sudden, boom, they have one. What I'm referring to, within my limited scope, so it might be different elsewhere, is that an officer will have finished their training and is then a Tp Ldr for 1 or 2 years. Then they go off and fill some weiny job somewhere, and then bounce around different headquarters, and one day appear back at the unit as a BC. Then it's off to weiny world for a few more years, then back as a 2IC. Gone again, and then they are the OC. Lather, rinse, repeat as neccesary. I know that it is a little more complicated than that (they have to be well rounded!!!), but for NCO's there is no real parallel until the rank of WO, which is, as of late, a good 20 years into a career. The officer spends 3 maybe 4 years within a Sqn, and the rest of the time is spent doing lord knows what, but probably as far away from soldiers as possible (and, one may argue, common sense).

Some of the jobs that are in the officer's realm could easily be held by NCO's, which would greatly increase morale no doubt, are 1) Pilot. There are many Western militaries that allow NCO's to fly, maybe not all aircraft, but definitely helo's. My late father-in-law had his pilot's license, with only a grade 9 education, so it certainly doesn't require a rocket scientist to fly an aircraft. I know more than a few NCO's that have their civvy pilot's license, so there's more proof. 2) Combat arms officers. If we were to cultivate more NCO's to look at CFR as a career goal, as opposed to something to do to increase pension payoff (I wonder if that happens now??), we could have a good corps of officers that rose up from nothing. How many police forces allow a person to be a Lt before they were ever a beat cop? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Roman army, one had to rise up through the ranks before becoming a Centurion. I know this idea ruffles more than a few feathers, but I would wager the payoff would be greater, as the level of experience that the NCO's would bring would be vast, and they (should) have already proven their worth. 3) I'm sure there are more, but my brain hurts, so I need to rest it.

Now onto: the unlikely-

-Less politics at the lower level of the troops,
Refer to my comment above ref changing how people are hard-wired.

-No more long 20-25 year contracts. Make a overall contract as the Reserves have for a "indefinite period" of service up until retirement, Then Offer full time contracts in 3-5 year stints. In order to renew your contract you have to prove that you have done a good fair job as indicated on your PER.
I agree somewhat, as it would remove some of the element of unionization that we have achieved, but it would be hell for forecasting for postings, career courses, promotions. I must be too close to a HQ element to be thinking like this..... time for the tin-foil helmet  :warstory:

-Overhaul the Per/Pdr programme so that it has a full effect on the overall situation. Eliminate the buddy buddy system that we see all to often. The people whom write them should not be directly employed with you.
I don't really know what you would propose as an alternative. Have somebody who barely knows you write it? Where are they going to get their information from? Your direct supervisor, of course. I could see where this MAY work, but I think it is the exception rather than the rule. Now, to shoot my own opinion square in the foot, I know of more than a few people who made out like bandits, because they worked for the same person for at least 3 years, and they happened to be "toight". But, it also cuts the other way.... I know guys who bounce around, from job to job, or have a new supervisor every few months, so it doesn't really matter who wrote the assessment, it probably wasn't too meaningful.

- Offer lower rent on Military housing, encourage members to live on base, where the operational goals can be met quickly with out the hassle of members during snow storms and that saying I cannot make it to work due to the weather etc
I don't know where you live, but near any major base this is impractical, if not impossible to accomplish. I have never missed a day of work due to snow, rain, sleet (I'm like a frickin' mailman, baby!!). And no, I didn't live in Victoria, Vancouver or Toronto (I would have had the army dig me out there, at least). I think that it's lame when they call "snow days". The majority of the time it seems people just use that day to go shopping anyway. And, unless you are a money managing expert, what would the average person do at the end of their career? Keep living in PMQ's, or rent forever?? Building equity with a house is where it's at, whether you're married or single. A career in the CF does have to end some day, right?!?!

Some good ideas have been bandied about here, and a lot of the changes have come about because people did voice their feelings/opinions at things such as the SCONDVA meetings. But I think we all realize that everybody has different motivations for joining, and then as we grow older, those motivations will change (spouse, kids, mortgage, planning for life after the CF). Throwing money at a problem never seems to work, and telling people to "suck it up!" for 20-25 years doesn't seem to cut it any more, and I'm sure if/when historian's look back in 500 years at the Army.ca forums, they will shake their heads and say "Soldiers back then complained about the same things that soldiers today do!" And then a jackbooted soldier will teleport in, kill the egghead with his plasma cannon, and laugh before taking a swig of beer (though it couldn't be more than 2 beer per day, perhaps....)

Al

Note: Editted for typo's and to throw in a witty comment. Yes, I know a lot of these points were posted by other's before I got a chance, but I was on a roll, had to put my kids to bed, and damned if I was going to lose my hard-fought thoughts!!! So there.
 
CTD said:
-Loose the people whom are confortable with their cushy jobs in support positions.   Whom think that the Cbt Arms are lesser of us all. We all work to support them, they are the primary reason why we have all these other trades.
I think we also need to get rid of the mythology, don't perpetuate it.
I can count on one hand the number of support trades personnel I've run into that care lesser of the Cbt arms. Talk about sterotyping. I can count on the other hand the few cbt arms personnel who think the support trades are worthless, do nothing individuals who sit in cushy chairs.
CTD said:
- make it so that every member of the CF deploys over to an operational theatre and does patrols
While we're at it, make sure that every member of the CF who deploys to an operational theatre can come in and do my job while I'm out doing patrols.
CTD said:
-have cross training with in the trades, so that every member of the Army can and will be able to use their weapon and basic soldiering skills to support operations fully.
We already attempt to do this in the Army. Soldier first, and if the crap hits the fan, I guarantee I'm dropping the AOG (as a 500 series you will understand this term) and picking up my weapon. Unfortunately, the RMS clerks, Medics, Sup Techs, et al are already in-theatre performing their MOSID job requirements in order to fully support operations. Do you propose cross-trg the other way, so that when all us support trades are busy doing patrols, checkpoints etc, the say infantry personnel will be drafting messages to NDHQ for IORs/AOGs, arranging flights, tending to someones injuries? When do you propose sending any trade (99.9% of whom) are busy enough all ready, on all the other trades courses in order to achieve this? We all have our jobs to do. Just do them.
 
Hey Guys,

In my Opinion, (Oldies) in the 80's, we had to love it. There was nothing, except the Forces itself, that kept us in. No money, no equipment or political stuff would keep us from going away.

You had to love it. And today, it should be the same.

We are trying to look too much like the civilian workplace. But the military will never be like a civilian job.

Because we serve, we don't work.
 
y'know what? After some internal debate, I'd settle for a fairly decent-looking chick in a one-piece swimsuit.
I'm pretty easy-going.
 
Back
Top