What would keep you in the army?
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If I get some time later, I can go into some form of detail about what was presented, but right now I am busy with other stuff (psssst, don't tell anybody, but I'm at work.... :-X )
This is an excellent point. It SHOULD be fun to be in the army. Soul sucking paperwork, and pushing a broom around an empty hangar floor don't exactly count as fun, unless you are a masochist, or are easily amused. I could probably count on one hand how many crewmen that I know that have gone on even Basic Para in the last 5-10 years. I know that money is tight, and the tempo is high, but what with the Whole Fleet Management (I am not a huge fan of this concept, and know very little about it, so I will refrain from commenting further) and other issues, the time spent in the past working on maintaining the equipment should now be spent on training. The problem is that too much time is spent on what amount to trivial things, rather than fundamental training. When officers spend their time staffing the same memo up and down the chain of command for a week or better because of minor spelling, errors, etc, it shows that there is something wrong. When NCO's are tasked with carrying the admin load due to what I just mentioned, that means they can't spend time conducting/planning training. And, unless the NCO's on the floors take the reins (which some units won't allow, due to micromanaging or indifferent officers/NCO's) and aren't stopped in their tracks by doing lame busy-work, nothing gets accomplished. Plus, when the younger people aren't wanting/willing to doing some of the harder training because they aren't accustomed to the warrior mentality, where sometimes you have to suffer for your occupation (working outside 0800-1600hrs structure, being away from home for long periods, last minute changes, etc), and whinge about having to do anything. And the soldiers lose out, because they aren't interested in being a soldier anymore. And the ones that sometimes stay on are the ones you don't want: unwilling to do any more than neccesary because they are only here for the paycheck. And the cycle repeats.....
Again, some of the things I have heard/seen in the last while make me hopeful, as the CDS' focus is on making an 'effective' CF, as opposed to an 'efficient' CF (which are sometimes mutually exclusive). I will elaborate when I get a chance.
Al
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Sounds like some of you would be more happy working in a strip club than in the army! 
For my part, I'm staying in for a little longer now, just to see if Gen Hillier's plan actually works. If it doesn't "take", I'm gone - I have spent the last 17 years coping with the bureaucracy of my own dept, and don't want to spend 17 more. It just isn't fun.
Oh, and a pension would be a nice touch as well... we (and I mean the Res F here) are the only govt employees without one. They keep saying it's coming, but then they keep delaying it. There are a whole pile of senior reservists delaying their release until it comes out - then we will see some attrition, I'm sure. It's not the money, so much as the message that we just don't matter enough.
For my part, I'm staying in for a little longer now, just to see if Gen Hillier's plan actually works. If it doesn't "take", I'm gone - I have spent the last 17 years coping with the bureaucracy of my own dept, and don't want to spend 17 more. It just isn't fun.
Oh, and a pension would be a nice touch as well... we (and I mean the Res F here) are the only govt employees without one. They keep saying it's coming, but then they keep delaying it. There are a whole pile of senior reservists delaying their release until it comes out - then we will see some attrition, I'm sure. It's not the money, so much as the message that we just don't matter enough.
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Money is not an issue to me. In my decision to come to Iraq it was not a deciding factor, in fact if the truth be told i am paid quite poorly by Iraq contractor standards. I took the job so i could go do something i know i will never be able to do in the CF, have a hell of a lot of action. The sad fact of my 6 year army career is that the highlights were battleschool and riding my dirtbike on base, not really something that you expect when you join an infantry Bn. If the CF had told me i was taking a pay cut but it was to pay for some better units, better tours and so on i would gladly take it. If you joined the army for the money you are an idiot and you are taking up space on courses. If anything i say we cut pay a bit so we arent attracting these sorts.
There are a lot of reasons why i got out, and they have been beaten to death on this forum, we all know what they are, and some are my own personal reasons, which a lot of you wouldnt agree with. One thing i have realised being here is that the Canadian army isnt half as bad as most people like to think though. there may be a lot of bullshit to wade through, but the fact is it is a pretty easy (too easy) job, they take really good care of you, and the friends you make are well worth the time. While im not putting too much faith in this new unit coming out, i think that it if it does come around we will see a ton of positive changes all over the army.
There are a lot of reasons why i got out, and they have been beaten to death on this forum, we all know what they are, and some are my own personal reasons, which a lot of you wouldnt agree with. One thing i have realised being here is that the Canadian army isnt half as bad as most people like to think though. there may be a lot of bullshit to wade through, but the fact is it is a pretty easy (too easy) job, they take really good care of you, and the friends you make are well worth the time. While im not putting too much faith in this new unit coming out, i think that it if it does come around we will see a ton of positive changes all over the army.
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A nice re-signing bonus would be a good incentive. (Nothing ridiculous, $5,000 for a second BE, $10,000 for an IE, with the condition you have to re-pay it if you break contract) If this is asking too much, not paying Federal Tax would also do the trick. ;D
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reccecrewman said:
agreed, a resigning bonus would be great ! is it true that CF members are no longer paying tax on overseas pay?
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Whats keeping me in? Pride and Dedication, it has been and will be... nothing more is needed.
Jay4th
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I am totally on board with Allan. We were being led down the garden path and fed a load of crap all through the nineties. I have high hopes for the Army Gen. H envisions, but I have been let down before. I feel the "new unit" has the potential for greatness as well. Even if some of the bright lights in the future fade out, I have to be a someone who tried to make it work. As one who left the Army once, it is hard to live as a bitter ex-soldier. We are all our own career manager in part. Find the direction you want to go and pester the chain til you are moving that way. Enough preaching from me. Most members won't believe these optimistic words are even mine.
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I find, in a way, that the "New" Units being created, are all hype.....in that they are just doing what 'old' units used to do, but have stopped due to fiscal restraints and lack of direction in policy from above.Jay4th said:
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I have my doubts as to why the "new" units are being created. Because I am cynical and jaded, I would say that they are created to give people a place to work (if you catch my drift ***cough**** top-heavy military ****cough*****).
It seems that everything old is new again, and if they are doing it to fulfill a requirement that can't be met by the existing ORBAT, fair enough. But..... We are stretched thin as it is, and I would much prefer to see the line units overflowing with troops, and THEN standing up these units. Thinning out existing units is going to create too much strain on them (IMO). If there are too many higher-ups floating around in the various headquarters, they should feel free to fill in at the various units (even in a "lower" position) while the people who need career training can get it.
If this is an attempt at raising morale (a la bringing back the Airborne Regt), I think it's a good idea in principle, but at what price??? We have been doing more with less for so long, that while we are good at it, I think it is what is starting to bring people down. Again, I say bring the core units up to at least their peacetime capacity (higher actually, as the people that they take out for the new units will deplete them to an unacceptable level, particularly with the types of people that they will want for these units), and then start-up the units. I just realized that I haven't done enough research to know if I am advocating what they are doing, but based on rumour-net (never a good basis for research) it sounds like full steam ahead........
Al
It seems that everything old is new again, and if they are doing it to fulfill a requirement that can't be met by the existing ORBAT, fair enough. But..... We are stretched thin as it is, and I would much prefer to see the line units overflowing with troops, and THEN standing up these units. Thinning out existing units is going to create too much strain on them (IMO). If there are too many higher-ups floating around in the various headquarters, they should feel free to fill in at the various units (even in a "lower" position) while the people who need career training can get it.
If this is an attempt at raising morale (a la bringing back the Airborne Regt), I think it's a good idea in principle, but at what price??? We have been doing more with less for so long, that while we are good at it, I think it is what is starting to bring people down. Again, I say bring the core units up to at least their peacetime capacity (higher actually, as the people that they take out for the new units will deplete them to an unacceptable level, particularly with the types of people that they will want for these units), and then start-up the units. I just realized that I haven't done enough research to know if I am advocating what they are doing, but based on rumour-net (never a good basis for research) it sounds like full steam ahead........
Al
Before I get to a slightly off-topic rant about some of the things people are saying in this thread, I'll give my own response to the original query. Factors that keep me in the military: constantly improving quality of life (including family time, personal time, and pay), the opportunity to do a different and interesting job every few years, and opportunity to continually broaden my experience and knowledge. As everyone knows, these things exist in today's CF, but not at a perfect state.
Now to the rant: A lot of the people commenting in this thread claim that money plays a rather small factor in their decision to continue their military career. I believe that as well, to a certain point, but too many people here are also advocating a pay cut. You folks should open your eyes a little bit and see things on a broader perspective. I joined the military because it was a passion and was always a path I wanted to follow. But why didn't I join sooner? Because personal circumstances precluded me from being able to survive on less money than the modern pay scales allow for. It's none of your business what those circumstances are, but they aren't illegal, unusual or even uncommon and I wouldn't doubt that there are plenty of people in a similar situation. Decent pay should be an enabling factor, not a deciding factor.
Decent pay attracting undesirables? It is the responsibility of the recruiters to deal with that aspect and weed those types out. That failing, BIQ, IAP, and BOTP should help. The pay helps to attract people into at least looking into having a career in the military. I don't want to be paid less just to, possibly, keep undesirables from applying.
As someone who worked in private industry for 14 years before joining the regs, I can say that the excitement and challenge most of you so desire and find missing in today's CF is even more lacking outside of the military, with few exceptions. The grass is always greener on the other side.
Now to the rant: A lot of the people commenting in this thread claim that money plays a rather small factor in their decision to continue their military career. I believe that as well, to a certain point, but too many people here are also advocating a pay cut. You folks should open your eyes a little bit and see things on a broader perspective. I joined the military because it was a passion and was always a path I wanted to follow. But why didn't I join sooner? Because personal circumstances precluded me from being able to survive on less money than the modern pay scales allow for. It's none of your business what those circumstances are, but they aren't illegal, unusual or even uncommon and I wouldn't doubt that there are plenty of people in a similar situation. Decent pay should be an enabling factor, not a deciding factor.
Decent pay attracting undesirables? It is the responsibility of the recruiters to deal with that aspect and weed those types out. That failing, BIQ, IAP, and BOTP should help. The pay helps to attract people into at least looking into having a career in the military. I don't want to be paid less just to, possibly, keep undesirables from applying.
As someone who worked in private industry for 14 years before joining the regs, I can say that the excitement and challenge most of you so desire and find missing in today's CF is even more lacking outside of the military, with few exceptions. The grass is always greener on the other side.
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Recruiters are looking too hard for anybody to join to let mercenary tendencies rule out someone's employment.
Newsflash: what I highlighted in your quote is probably what someone would say to a recruiter when pressed on if they are joining for the money, thereby negating your first argument.
Just because you come in with a different perspective (which we can all appreciate) doesn't give you the right to criticize what some people with a great deal more of experience state: some people stick around solely for the money, not the adventure, and certainly not to be a professional soldier, sailor or airman. By professional I mean someone that is dedicated to the profession of arms, and not making the rent cheque. Yes, we need to pay people a decent wage, but when the pay disparity between a Cpl and a Sgt is so minimal (the difference per month for a Cpl 4 and a basic Sgt is only $372, or $12 per day), we encourage mediocrity and complacency. The Cpl rank is the one that all the commissions and programs focussed on, from my understanding. So of course they pumped that one up, without considering things such as what I mentioned. And don't get me started on the pay difference between officers and NCM's (suffice it to say that a Captain makes more than I do, by a good $500 per month, and an average Capt reaches that rank far faster than a soldier makes it to Sgt).
I lived through the shitty pay (and many before me lived through far worse), and while many of the programs are appreciated, and I do take advantage of them, the fact of the matter is that salary is a HUGE percentage of our budget, and so it would seem that we a victim of our own success. The more they pay us, the less toys we can buy.
I would be happy IF we could get rid of the 8 to 4 soldiers, who are NOT professionals, but all the glorious programs and initiatives (human rights, harrassment, etc) brought in over the years have effectively made us a unionized force. Trying to get somebody who is an underperformer out is like trying to get a bulldog off a meat truck.
So, if your big educated brain can find a way to only keep in people who are willing to give 100%, I would be willing to advocate pay raises all around, but if it means pulling away an incentive for all the deadwood so they get their sorry asses off the gravy train, I WOULD advocate a pay reduction. I'll be waiting for your proposal (but I won't be holding my breath......)
Al
"Trying to get somebody who is an underperformer out is like trying to get a bulldog off a meat truck."- Allan Loumalla.
- Al, you are truly an inspiration. Coming from Thunder Bay, I am no stranger to classic lines from Finlanders, but you have again raised the bar. As soon as I finish banging this out with one finger, I am gonna give your plus sign a pounding.
I know a guy who spent part of his early life living in a Sally Ann clothing donation box, and joined the CF for 'three hots and a cot'. In his time, he out-soldiered a lot of his more refined and expensively recruited peers. HR (human relations) as a science is like the military as a science. In the theoretical plane, they are sciences like astronomy, after first contact, they are more like astrology.
Tom
Edit: El tougho shitto Al, your plus sign is gone! - Tom
- Al, you are truly an inspiration. Coming from Thunder Bay, I am no stranger to classic lines from Finlanders, but you have again raised the bar. As soon as I finish banging this out with one finger, I am gonna give your plus sign a pounding.
I know a guy who spent part of his early life living in a Sally Ann clothing donation box, and joined the CF for 'three hots and a cot'. In his time, he out-soldiered a lot of his more refined and expensively recruited peers. HR (human relations) as a science is like the military as a science. In the theoretical plane, they are sciences like astronomy, after first contact, they are more like astrology.
Tom
Edit: El tougho shitto Al, your plus sign is gone! - Tom
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