What is a Veteran?

[Trinity]

Stalker..

I agree..  there are much worse problems than what is a Veteran.
But can we solve them on this message board? 

Are you that offended that (by accident in another thread) that the
question of what is and what isn't a veteran came up?

       
I think that the word peacekeeping is a better word to debate, because that is the real issue here.

No... we are talking about members who were hurt on the job and are now considered vets by the government.
So apparently you haven't been reading this thread as much as you think.

 

[Gunner]

I think your "silent stalker" is a cadet.

 

[from darkness lite]

Gotta go with Acorn on this one.  As he mentioned regarding the tooth-to-tail ratio of WWII, depending on which ally you choose, it ranged from 7 "REMFs" to 1 Cbt Arm, to 12 "REMFs" to 1 Cbt Arm.

As for seeing Cbt, one of the Vets I have the pleasure of sharing the company of on the last school day before 11 Nov over the last 2 years at my son's school (11 Nov is a day off in Alberta, not like some provinces), was a clerk on an airfield in England in 44 and 45.  Closest he got to the enemy was a "Jerry Recce flight one evening".  Do I respect him still??  You bet!!  Is he a vet??  Yes!!

So by definition, I am, and so are most of us, a vet.  Maybe its in our nature to play down our accomplishments, saying we're just doing our job, etc...  Most Vets I know also state they were just doing their job, and play down their accomplishments also. For the most part, soldiers, airmen, and sailors tend to be a modest lot, saying it was no big deal, etc..  Take pride in our accomplishments, ultimately history will decide its worthiness....

Cheers 

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

      What is a veteran, I don't know the best definition.  I do know that those who have "been there, and done that" deserve and get my respect.  I also know that any Canadian soldier, sailor, or airman who gives his life in service to his country, or suffers cripling injury in that service deserves the same respect REGUARDLESS OF WHERE/HOW IT HAPPENED.  How many people have we all seen, good friends and brothers, killed and maimed from pushing things as hard as we have to do in training, exercise, and on deployments that try to do way too much, with way too few people; paying the price for making fifty year old kit perform on the wrong end of a thousand klik supply line.  Dead is dead, crippled is crippled.  If you bled for the flag, and were buried under it, then you bought the name Veteran with the same coin four of my six great Uncles did back in 39-45 (Grandad and Uncle Tom survived their service).  Our beloved leaders don't like to admit that people die in our army, they don't like to admit we kill people.  Our beloved leaders like to forget about us completely, except for a pious sound bite every November.  I served my time, saw some things, did some things, but nothing on the scale my father and grandfather had to.  I call them Veterans, I call myself and ex-serviceman.  I also call some of the men I served with in the nineties Veterans, because they had "been there, and done that".  I call every single one I saw buried a Veteran, because they bloody paid for it.

 

[the 48th regulator]

The jist of my rant is that our leaders are not the only the ones that don't see it.

We are too humble and don't want to coin ourselves, veteran.  We fear that it equates us with the heroes that we grew looking up to.  What makes them so heroic is that by their actions, we as Canadian soldiers have not had to leave our land for more than  6-12 months to go to some God forsaken land.  Very few of us have in our modern army have had to take someones life in order to defend our comrades and our own.

This is why they are hero's, veterans, the examples to follow.

My blister is that if we continue with this attitude that Veterans do not exist anymore, all of us who have suffered will continue to suffer.  Why? Well if we as soldiers are so quick to cast away the title of veteran, how easy would it be for our leaders, or the average Canadian to follow the same ideology.

And when that happens, ya some people are too gunshy (hehe pardon the pun) to use their VA benefits card to seek any help, but do you think the support from that average Joe will be there?  I don't thinks so, why?  I have seen it.

I say we have to stand up an realize what we have gone through. I have said this before, as I was a culprit, but I did not want to admit how I suffered.  Didn't want to be called weak.  Heck, Ii am sure if you walk up to any Combat Veteran, they can tell you for years they did the same, and society promoted that.  Now ask them how it feels seeking or even getting that help.  Damn near impossible at times.

That is what I have been intending.  I don't need recognition for what I have done, so that I can strut my stuff.  I do it to look at a future, yep mine, but everyone else who has gone through what we have had to.

And while I am young and still got the stainless steel coating on the family jewels, I will see to it no one takes our rights away.

Otherwise, I will be eighty, and have some youn punk ass wippersnapper ripping me a new asshole...I just won't let it happen not now, and not then.

I am off to bed, thanks for sitting and listening to my daily rant.  Spring is to near and I am too jittery that i need to get out.

oh ya stalker,

Hope to meet up with you one day, would love to hear more of your stories in person, maybe we can go for a pint.  No worries I will order the light Shandy for you so you won't be embarrassed ....

tess

 

[bossi]

I've been pre-occupied elsewhere, and thus could/should be accused of "piling on", but ...

At our most recent Remembrance Dinner, I was touched immeasurably by something said to my originally by a Korean War vet (one who wears the Presidential Citation), and then reiterated by a Second World War vet (who, immediately before dinner, showed me a photo of his buddy and told me the story of his death during the war ...).

You've probably all heard it before, but because of the gentlemen who said it to me I'd like to repeat it:
They explained that in the First and Second World Wars, soldiers in training were required to point in the "direction" of the enemy (i.e. to the "front").  For Korean War vets, the enemy wasn't always in front of them, and it was even worse in Vietnam (when they might even be surrounded).

However, they hammered home the point that today's soldiers often don't even know who is the enemy when you're walking on a crowded street in Kabul - never knowing who might be a suicide bomber, or when an IED or command-detonated mine might be set off ...

Frankly, they said "they had it easier - at least they knew who their enemies were".
And so, I take their words to heart.

As for "defining" what is a veteran ... it will inevitably be muddied by the bureacracy, however I'd add my own $0.02:  It should include some hint that the person "answered the call". 

We all have our own Achilles heel, or "hot button", and mine is knowing people who have never volunteered, never even gone on FALLEX in Germany, never deployed on an op (not even a Dom Op), and yet have the unmitigated gall to strut around whilst administering "belt-fed rooster" to those who've been there and have the tshirt ... I admit it drives me crazy, both literally and figuratively, to the point where I can't stand to be in the same Mess with them ... for fear I'll lose it next time they chortle about some jammie swan they've connived for themselves ...

 

[Art Johnson]

Tess you are right in a lot of ways but not all WWII Veterans were treated with courtesy by DVA employees. I remember a chap from the 48th who phoned me as he was going up for a reboard. He asked what should I tell them? I replied that the first thing they are going to ask you is "how did you get here." I told him the answer is "with great difficulty". Sure enough that is what happened. I myself was given a hard time on a reboard, I lost. There were all these twits on the board who had not served a day in Athe Army let alone battle who hadn't a clue about what being in action was like.
A chap from the  Irish Regiment was up for reboard he told his story and they didn't believe him. When he told me what had happened to him it certainly all seemed normal to me. He was driving down the road in Italy when a convoy of Tank Transporters were coming in the oposit direction, he was driven off the road and ended up in a British Hospital. The Canadian Army said he was AWOL and that label stuck and he didn't get a cent.
Another story to show how things get screwed up Murray Hoffman a Lieutenant in the 48th was wounded in action and died of his wounds in a British Hospital. He was assumed to be a member of the Jewish Brigade and was burried with that units war dead untill 1981 when Bill Elms brought to the attention of the authorities that he was a 48th and he was moved to the 48th section of the cemetary.
As to a time frame for a Veteran a Lt. Harriet was KIA within three days of leaving Canada about ten feet from where I was wounded.

Tess you chaps are all Veterans in my book and we have to keep after those Bastards in Ottawa so that they don't forget us.

Cheers

Art J.

 

[Veterans son]

Quote,
rather then some stupid title that even guys in the Legion could care less about.

For my   late father and on behalf of VETERANS everywhere I take offense at that statement.

Great message, Bruce!

 

[Veterans son]

Shec

Thank you so much for posting that very moving message.
As I read it, there were tears in my eyes. :'(

Again, thank you!

 

[patrick666]

A veteran is someone who has gone places I will never go....

Much respect. Pro patria.

Cheers

 

[Korus]

An interesting parallel this debate, but from another country (Argentina regarding the Falklands)

Argentina's forgotten war vets
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4394561.stm

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

Kipling's poem Tommy summed it up.  Civilians love their soldiers as long as they fear the imminent loss of their life, or wealth.  Once the fear abates, or if the lives spent failed to buy the toy they wanted, they quickly forget us.  The US after Vietnam, Russians after Afghanistan, the Germans after either World War, good soldiers give their all for a country that proves itself unworthy of their sacrifice.  Our government fails to recognize the Veteran status of any soldier post Korea, and given a choice, would have ignored Korea.  The willingness to throw away the lives and health of those that have served their nation seems to cross all racial, religious, and political boundaries, it seems everyone is willing to toss away those soldiers inconvenient enough to have survived and not quietly dissappeared.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Well,

Sorry to have to dust off this old punch up but some things must be cleared.

Fasteddy,

I am sure by now you have finished reading the thread that broke off from the one you and I have been bantering on;

You see, what was said in the quote that you praised ticked me off.  For personal reasons

Not sure when I became the aggressor, did I touch a nerve? Let me guess you're a student/reservist on yout first BE?

No need to get personal (" grizzled old war hero"??) . I'm neither, definitely not grizzled and farm from a hero/vet. The last vets we have are from the Korean War. Exposure to hostilities during a 6 month tour doesn't qualify, as far as I'm concerned as Veteran Status. Yes there may be some tough moments, being shot at and targeted by "mad bombers" has a certain level of stress, but pales in comparison to what was experienced by troops  in Dieppe, NW Europe, SE Asia and Kap Yong etc....

Anyway..enough said. I think the today's posted articles sum up everyone's sentiments quite well.

Nicely put Spr039, no truer words have ever been spoken.

So, I did not mistake you for someone else, I was not amused by your agreement.

So I offered to clear things up by PM, fair enough;

As far as carrying on a discussion with you on any subject by PM.s, anything ,anytime I have anything to
say to you I can do it in open Forum.

Bring it on, why do you agree?

dileas

tess

 

[axeman]

Grrr as a pointy ended persson that has ridden in the back with the gear . know that the cf and any army is always heavy on the tail to help the teeth . as ive stated earlier i know what a veteran is in my mind but then there always the few that will get swept to the aft in the mind by thinking oh that doesnt count . there will generally be some one that your not thinking about to pop up and say well what aboiut the ppl that served and are serving in Alert , and places like that?

48th i hear you and will hoist a beer in your honour .

 

[Kat Stevens]

I did my bit for a few years and took my bite of the crap sandwich every day. Am I a veteran? you're damn skippy I am... Am I a war veteran? O'course not.  Look at what the word means.  If Wayne Gretzky can be called a veteran for getting rich, why the hell can't I.  And, yes, I do have that Gucci Alberta veteran plate on my truck...The Legion says I can have it, that's good enough for me...

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[FastEddy]

Well,

Sorry to have to dust off this old punch up but some things must be cleared.

Fasteddy,

I am sure by now you have finished reading the thread that broke off from the one you and I have been bantering on;

You see, what was said in the quote that you praised ticked me off.   For personal reasons

So, I did not mistake you for someone else, I was not amused by your agreement.

So I offered to clear things up by PM, fair enough;

Bring it on, why do you agree?

dileas

tess

I assure you that I have read every post in this Thread and reread spr039's reply which you feel I agreed
with. I only agreed with it up to my comparison of my own Service which inclued 2 yrs in Germany 55-57.
which paled in comparison of those who went before me up to that date. Of course I consider them
Veterans, regardless of their individual roles. Of course this was not a shooting war, But a  number of
Troops did die in accidents and by their own hands, whether the distingsion of Veteran should be confired on them is a grey area, by comparison to those who fought and died in Theaters of Operations and also
those who only stood and waited. The word Veteran, has always carried a Aurora of Heroism with it,
therefore a certain amount of thought might be applied to its use.

As for my Record of Service, I do not consider myself as a Veteran, an Ex-Serviceman yes.

As for you Sir, I most certainly would and do call and refer to you as a Veteran. And dully appreciate
your sensitivity to any arguments that might tend to exclude you or any of our Comrades from that Distingsion.

Respectfull yours, FastEddy.

 

[CH1]

The difference between "a vet" and those that serve in the crap holes we are sent to is purely Gov't semantics.  Since the 2nd big scheme & more recently Korea, we are sent into "Police Actions". Korean Vets have just been recognised even though it was a "Police Action" & not a "declared war".

My own 2 cents for what it is worth, is these so called "Police actions" are still combat.  Whether you are on the line for 1 day, 1 year or 10 years, you are for ever changed.  You do not return the same person as when you left.  You for ever bear scars the average civvie will never be able to imagine.  You have joined that special order called "Vet".

Cheers

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

The difference between "a vet" and those that serve in the crap holes we are sent to is purely Gov't semantics.   Since the 2nd big scheme & more recently Korea, we are sent into "Police Actions". Korean Vets have just been recognised even though it was a "Police Action" & not a "declared war".

My own 2 cents for what it is worth, is these so called "Police actions" are still combat.   Whether you are on the line for 1 day, 1 year or 10 years, you are for ever changed.   You do not return the same person as when you left.   You for ever bear scars the average civvie will never be able to imagine.   You have joined that special order called "Vet".

Cheers

Well said.  CH1 nailed the definition to a T.  Veterans, those who have experienced the conditions that will forever change them, wether in a declared war, or police action, or "peace enhancement initiative" (had that one from an MP doing an tour).  I don't care what the politicians call it, the dead don't care what the politicians call it, and the wounds (physical and emotional) don't care either.

 

[JBB]

I served in Croatia with 1 PPCLI in 1994.  I certainly consider myself a veteran.

JBB

 

[Spr.Earl]

I served in Croatia with 1 PPCLI in 1994.   I certainly consider myself a veteran.

JBB

I,as a Militia Sapper who joined in 76 and still serving with only 1 tour (not for the lack of trying)don't consider my self a Vet..
I've only done my job as a Sapper and too my adopted Country for the last odd 29yrs.
Am I a Vet?
Not in my eyes,I've just done what I signed up for,to serve with honour and do my job ,as we all have done.

It's Civie St. that has determined the defintion of a Vet not us,those who have seen  what War can do to our fellow human beings don't think of it in that term.We think of friends,of good times and bad times of what we have seen and done over our careers.