What is a Veteran?

[Haggis]

Do I consider myself a veteran?

I served in faraway places on ops and on excercises; missed first steps, birthdays, kids graduations and anniversaries.  I missed my mom's passing away.  There were two deaths on my last op tour, none by hostile acts, but those two soldiers are just as dead and they died just as far from home.  I have watched friends and subordinates being lowered into the ground on too many occasions.  Only one died in a "declared war".

I've had the shyte scared out of me more than once.  I saw my life flash in front of my eyes on my last tour (didn't like how it ended, either.) but I'm still here.  I was paid well and awarded medals for those sacrifices.

I'm on a pension for injuries sustained while on duty, but I'm not on a category (yet).

Looking at the context of how "veteran" was defined in previous generations, I doubt many of us would qualify or consider ouselves as having endured the same hardships as those who have gone before us. But times have changed, wars have changed and so must the definition of "veteran".

I carry a little VAC card too, but I wouldn't dare use it.  Do I consider myself a Veteran?  No.

But my government and my family do.

 

[Trinity]

Ok.. Fair enough..

For those who do not consider themselves a Vet, I surely would not want to force my
ideas on them.  I respect your opinions.

So lets change slightly the aspect of the thread.

Is there a stimga that goes with being called a Veteran?
How does one feel about being called a Veteran when we are young?
Do you find it offensive?

I'm not trying challenge anyones beliefs here.  Just open up another avenue to
explore and also help educate a young budding lad such as myself.



EDIT  MCG... thank you for the definition.. it was late.. I couldn't find it

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Apparently I was a veteran after never leaving Canada, and playing in a bagpipe band for nine years.   I don't think I'll be ordering my plates anytime soon.

I had a woman mail me her dad's service records once; he had told her he was a "commando" during the Second World War and performed secret missions.   She wanted some help reading the abbreviations on his docs.

I had the happy experience of telling her that a "Tipper Platoon" is a dump truck unit, that he was in the Service Corps, and spent most of his Army service in and out of hospital.

He was a Veteran, too, and I hope she was no less proud of him after hearing that.   He was obviously embarrassed and felt the need to exaggerate his record - I don't think he should have been.   He signed on the dotted line and served honourably (though I don't know what the hospital stays were for).   He was there where and when he was needed.

Just like the reservist who gets shot up in an Iltis, or the reg force guy shuffling paper in Ottawa so that soldiers can go do what they do around the world.

Perhaps if we were German, we could come up with some delicious compound word to properly describe the different categories of veterans, or if we were Inuit we could have three dozen different words, but we don't.     My own personal definition would restrict the word to those who have deployed operationally - for however long.   But like recce says, that's up to VAC, the RCL, and DND.

I certainly wouldn't pass judgement on the service of others by imposing my own definition.   Soldiers in this country get little enough credit, no need to do the same within our own ranks.

 

[Haggis]

Is there a stimga that goes with being called a Veteran?
How does one feel about being called a Veteran when we are young?
Do you find it offensive?

I would say that people are surprised when I'm presented as a vet, partly because of my age (40-ish) and the perception that "Canada doesn't fight wars... how can you be a veteran?" (I once heard "Oh, you're husband is a vet?  He should meet mine.  He's a breeder!)

How do I feel about it?  I guess it depends on the audience.  If I were in the Legion and somebody called me a vet, I'd likely be embarressed. Partly because those in attendance were "real" vets (in my eyes) and partly because the local branch years ago denied me membership because my non-wartime service "didn't count".  (Attitudes have changed since, but I never did join the Legion.)  Troops in my unit consider me a vet, including some with far more deployments than me.  That I consider an honour.

Although I don't consider myself a vet, I don't find the label offensive.  In fact I find myself mildly intolerant of those who label themselves a vet without having "been there and done that".

 

[pronto]

Uhhhh - I have to agree with Haggis... I have a "glorious" 7 years (Canada, and some bases in the States - Drum, Grayling, Bragg, and out in '82). nothing overseas at all. I am not a vet by any stretch of the imagination, and would never refer to myself in that way!!!!

My brother, on the other hand, has over 20 and counting, lotsa out-of-country experience. He IS a vet. Maybe (as someone noted above), you need to be in potential harms way to count??? Not a bad criteria.

Watcha think?

 

[Shec]

He was there where and when he was needed  makes one a vet.    How one earned the title of vet is a function of time, place, and policy   -   the fortunes of war and/or peace if you will.

That was the only standard the old boys at my legion branch applied to me after they invited me to join and dismissed my embarassment at never hearing a shot fired in anger or putting my butt on the line by playing silly bugger at Wainwright or Shilo.
 
So to me the real issue is how the  been there and done that factor speaks to the character of the one who is a vet.

If one is going to be so arrogant, so presumptuous, and so self-absorbed as to expect veterans of Normandy, of the bomber offensive, of Korea, of post-world war peace-keeping operations to be impressed and regalled with stories about how one defended Canada from the Fantasian hordes then one deserves the hoots of derision or the cold shoulders that one invites.

However, if one sits with fellow vets and humbly respects the common values they share while appreciating the differences they have experienced then I am priviledged to be a member of that fraternity and I thank them for their welcome.

 

[ArmyAviator]

Another point of view.  I've always held the belief that there are two types of vets.  Veterans of military service are those who have served their country honourably and been released at the end of a terms of service.  Then there are War Veterans (with a big capital V) that have served their country in combat.  Yes this is a grey line even in these definitions.  For myself, I'm coming up to 20 yrs service and a couple of overseas tours, with more to come, and when I retire I will consider myself a veteran of military service.  I won't consider myself a War veteren unless I actuallly end up engaged in combat.  (Been close but not close enough.)  Thus in my mind there are a lot of members over the past 20-30 yrs I could consider War Veterans. 

These are just my 2 cents and that I have more or less respect for those who have served regardless of there situation.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

My brother, on the other hand, has over 20 and counting, lotsa out-of-country experience. He IS a vet. Maybe (as someone noted above), you need to be in potential harms way to count??? Not a bad criteria.

Watcha think?

I think Shec nailed it.

I have a lot of respect for those who have "been there done that."   Right up to the point where they start demanding privileges for it.   Not many do, but there is always one or two, just as there are one or two who have never been anywhere or done anything and now demand the same privileges.

I think it's up to others to decide how to define one's self.   A WW II veteran, for example, never calls himself a hero.   That's up to the rest of us who haven't been there to do for them.   Funny how that works, eh?

Shec got it right.   He would never call himself a veteran, but the WW II vets - those grand gentlemen that they are, generously applied the label to him.   I've talked to them myself.   I said to one infantry vet "my generation couldn't do what you guys did."   He laughed and said "you never know until you're asked."

At least those of us who put on the uniform - be they a storesman in a Militia service battalion, or an Assaulter in JTF-2 - have openly sworn an oath and said "ask me."

I don't call myself a veteran, but I do think that whatever you call me, I've done more than the dude who laughs at our military, spends his life reading pulp fiction, playing paintball, renting loud movies, buying Soldier of Fortune and wearing camouflage to the mall - then tells the rest of us how stupid we were to spend hours and days out on exercise staring at the sky, beating our brains out on courses that don't teach us how to do much, or having to work on Rememberance Day!

 

[Spr]

Its obvious by the posts on this thread that the term "veteran" is one of perception.

Its also a function of opportunity.

I've got a grandfather burried in Cassino War Cemetery, the other survived Dieppe only to finish the war as a PW and be force marched across Europe as the Germans retreated     (he died - in the 60's - as result of chronic illness attributed to this experience). To the best of my knowledge my respective grandmothers received squat...I think a nice letter from the PMO and a small suvvior pension that wasn't indexed for inflation?

The guys that spent a career during the Cold War Era, on Reforgers and fly overs, Snowballed out at 0300 in Lahr, digging in to defend the Battle Bridge or fight the Fantasian hordes off of Inchby Ridge, were doing their duty. If not for their commitment and effort, and yes sacrifice the Red Bear may have taken a big crap in Western Europe or even here. Are these guys not deserving of veteran status? (my father was one of these guys)

So we have been notorius in neglecting our Vets and their families..and as Tess points out there's still a way to go.

I laud the efforts of the Legion and DVA to change that perception.

As I mentioned in an earlier  post we're all part of a big machine and none of us can work in isolation (although at times it seems we are).  The rifleman on patrol in Kabul right now wouldn't be able to do his job if not for the loadie in Trenton.  

Do both deserve equal recogniton? How does it get defined and deteremined in this PC world that demands equity?

If the threat  is assymetric does that not mean we're all equally engaged?

More questions then answers on this thread.

 

[Shec]

Thanks for the assist Michael D.

You know, this whole question intrigued me so last night I googled for a definition of veteran.   There were many.    But the one that resonated the most (OK call me a sentimental fool)   was this one.   Notwithstanding the US spin, its message applies to all:

What Is A Vet?

He is the cop on the beat who spent six months in Saudi Arabia sweating two gallons a day making sure the armored personnel carriers didn't run out of fuel.

He is the barroom loudmouth, dumber than five wooden planks, whose overgrown frat-boy behavior is outweighed a hundred times in the cosmic scales by four hours of exquisite bravery near the 38th parallel.

She or he -- is the nurse who fought against futility and went to sleep sobbing every night for two solid years in Da Nang.

He is the POW who went away one person and came back another -- or didn't come back AT ALL.

He is the Quantico drill instructor who has never seen combat -- but has saved countless lives by turning slouchy, no-account rednecks and gang members into Marines, and teaching them to watch each other's backs.

He is the parade -- riding Legionnaire who pins on his ribbons and medals with a prosthetic hand.

He is the career quartermaster who watches the ribbons and medals pass him by.

He is the three anonymous heroes in The Tomb Of The Unknowns, whose presence at the Arlington National Cemetery must forever preserve the memory of all the anonymous heroes whose valor dies unrecognized with them on the battlefield or in the ocean's sunless deep.

He is the old guy bagging groceries at the supermarket -- palsied now and aggravatingly slow -- who helped liberate a Nazi death camp and who wishes all day long that his wife were still alive to hold him when the nightmares come.

He is an ordinary and yet an extraordinary human being -- a person who offered some of his life's most vital years in the service of his country, and who sacrificed his ambitions so others would not have to sacrifice theirs.

He is a soldier and a savior and a sword against the darkness, and he is nothing more than the finest, greatest testimony on behalf of the finest, greatest nation ever known.

So remember, each time you see someone who has served our country, just lean over and say Thank You. That's all most people need, and in most cases it will mean more than any medals they could have been awarded or were awarded.

Two little words that mean a lot, "THANK YOU."

Remember November 11th is Veterans Day!

"It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."

Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC

 

[Spr]

Sort of sums it up...dosen't it?

 

[Haggis]

That it certainly does!  Well done Shec.

"It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."

This quote now hangs, framed, prominently in my dining room.  It appeared there while I was in the Republic of Georgia in 2002.  Seeing it for the first time when I got home, I was quite moved.

 

[Spr]

A US Army Col  I worked with a few years ago gave me a copy of that quote - he was a CFR that had 4 tours to Vietnam  from rifleman - CSM.

Pretty impressive man - he's a Veteran!

 

[armygf]

I stummbled on this thread and wanted to add my thoughts. You know we can all sit here and debate the word veteran and argue about who is who when it comes to qualifying under this title. The truth however is that it does not matter one bit if you might be a veteran or not because it is the content of one's character and your willingness to serve a cause bigger then any one person that matters not the title you get at the end. 

I have been in the Army for quite a number of years now, in since I was 16 in the reserves and my service has continued in the Regular Force now for even longer.  I have travelled to some of the worst places the world has to offer, so do I consider myself a veteran?  To be honest until this post I never thought about it for a second.  I am a soldier, and that is all that matters to me because all the fancy titles will never give back the youth I once had, and the friends that I have lost forever. 

To me the desire to be a veteran dishonors those who have served wether it be the Crimaen War to World War One, World War Two and Korea, right up to Afghanistan. This act of dishonor towards the word would inculde myself as I am sure others that are reading these posts with me.  If you get into this business for the glory and the title of veteran the I assure you that you are in it for the wrong reason.

I think that the word peacekeeping is a better word to debate, because that is the real issue here.  If the government would have any backbone and call war what it is then this debate would not exist now and the issues would be mute. Under that word soldiers of this great nation have been operating for years without the proper recongnition they deserve.  For those of us who have seen this first hand I know that you are as frustrated with the word as I am.

Stop debating things that do not matter.  You want to know what matters?  Everyday there is a Canadian Forces Member going through the worst day in their life in some god forsaken sewer, or someone who was forced out of the career they love by PTSD or worse. Canadians on deployment kill and are killed and that is what people should be concerned about rather then some stupid title that even guys in the Legion could care less about.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
rather then some stupid title that even guys in the Legion could care less about.

For my  late father and on behalf of VETERANS everywhere I take offense at that statement.

 

[Kat Stevens]

amen, stalker

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from Silent Stalker,
I have been in the Army for quite a number of years now, in since I was 16 in the reserves and my service has continued in the Regular Force now for even longer.   I have travelled to some of the worst places the world has to offer, so do I consider myself a veteran?   To be honest until this post I never thought about it for a second.   I am a soldier, and that is all that matters to me because all the fancy titles will never give back the youth I once had, and the friends that I have lost forever.  

Thats funny cause I was looking back at some of your posts and it seems that you have done a whole lot of living in the last 3 months....

   The Parade Square / Equipment / Re: para wings   on: January 20, 2005, 17:16:48  
i[glow=red,2,300] am not in the military, [/glow] just trying to get this done as a gesture to my friend.   it is a suprise so i can't ask him, can someone plese just tell me the measurements for the para wings?   it is the last thing i have to get done.  

   The Parade Square / Equipment / Re: desperate for information concerning uniforms!!!!   on: January 13, 2005, 00:14:21  
another question is, if he has red wings he has a green beret right, but if he has white ones do i have to track down the maroon baret? also what are the requirements for the hite wings?   what are the difference between someone with the white and the red.   i am so confuse


  The Parade Square / Equipment / desperate for information concerning uniforms!!!!   on: January 09, 2005, 01:33:18  
hi guys,

i have a general question concerning uniforms.   i am trying to put together a uniform for a friend of mine that used to be in the army from surplus items and although i have collected everything i need i am left with little information on how i should place the insignia on the uniform. specifically concerning 'wings.' i understand that my friend had earned what i believe to be called his pathfinder's wings? (torch insignia) from what little information i have i understand that this should be placed on the left breast above the ribbons.   how far up from the pocket should this be?   also do i also attach other wings along with the torch? (ex. paratrooper wings) if so how far is that insignia from the torch and which one should be on top? i really hope someone can help me as i can find no information on this subject.   i would rather no ask my friend as this is hopefully going to be a suprise.   if anyone knows the correct measurements plez let me know

The Parade Square / The Canadian Army / uniforms in the public   on: February 11, 2005, 20:06:14  
does anyone know if regular force members are allowed to wear their uniforms in a bar?

   The Parade Square / Equipment / para wings   on: February 18, 2005, 02:13:23  
what is the current issue style of para wings for the service dress?   is it the shiny gold version or the dull gold version?   do all para wings look the same or does the style you have depend on when they were first issued to you?

.....awaiting your reply.
Bruce

 

[Slim]

Owned.

Silentstalker.

If you have knowingly posted false information about yourself, or others, on this site you will be placed on one of the warnings or banned. Its not acceptable here. Period.

I, or one of the other mods, (like Bruce Monkhouse whom you just P.O.'d to no end) will be checking.

Slim
STAFF

 

[Kat Stevens]

EEEP! Have I been duped?  Call me Sapper Sucka if so...

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[Acorn]

By definition I am a veteran. I qualify for those licence plates.

That being said, the guy who drove a truck in the UK from '43-'45 is a vet. The guy who served well behind the lines in WWI is a vet. There is no "two-way rifle range" criterion. In fact, given the tooth-to-tail ratio of forces in WWII, I would say a significant number of those who we consider as vets didn't hear an angry shot. Does that diminish them? Certainly not.

The same should not apply to our forces today.

I don't go around claiming to be a veteran. I've been fortunate enough to avoid having been shot at (as far as I could tell - I heard the odd angry shot, but never came under effective enemy fire). However it's not for my own sake that I would hope the title of Veteran doesn't require an ordeal on the level of that suffered by Tess. So far I haven't buried a friend killed by enemy fire. I've buried a few, too many, killed by their own hand, and a couple killed in training.

What is a Veteran? Hell, I don't have a clue. I say let the legal definition stand and let those who qualify make the claim, be they infanteers with 3 years combat time, or dump truck drivers who never left the rear areas.

Acorn