Voluntary Occupational Transfer ( VOT )

[cpds25]

Just joined the army.ca forums to let you navy guys who are trying to VOT double & triple check with your CCR and Ships Office. My boat misplaced the VOT message, and if Ottawa hadn't directly contacted a few key personal on my boat, i wouldnt be in the position i am now where i was able to accept the VOT and finalize the process even past the deadline.

Goodluck guys!

 

[logan7xxx]

I just had similar issue, I stopped in at the btl to touch base and found out that they never got my acceptance sign off so I had to resign it and the btl office forwarded it on. I got my instruction message now but my offer was sitting since early may, the btl said I was lucky cause normally you only have 14 days from the offer to decline or accept.

 

[max021]

No luck for me this year got a non selection .I am getting ready to reapply for this year but I am thinking about rewriting the cfat .I was slightly above average but with a out cap of 5 in my trade Its quite hard to come out.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Congrats to those who were selected this year. 

To those who were, unfortunately, not...be performers in your current trade, be the guy/gal that smiles and work towards improving the odds next year!

 

[DrSize]

Fortunately I was successful in my OT this year.  What I would recommend if you want to be successful is to make sure you have a very strong CFAT score.  I did not know this until after the fact.  The OT selection is based on your overall score.  Your overall score is broken down as follows:

CFAT - 60%
Interview (experience, leadership etc) - 25%
Personality Test - 15%

If they have 5 positions to offer they will take the top 5 files based on the overall score out of 100.  Ask for what percentile you scored on the CFAT and you want to shoot to be in the top 80th percentile (if you are close it wouldn't be worth the risk of scoring lower by redoing it)

 

[Eye In The Sky]

This scoring matrix is also being used for UTPNCM, so I'd suggest it is around for the near to mid future.  Personally, I think 60% on CFAT is absurd but it is what it is....

 

[DrSize]

This scoring matrix is also being used for UTPNCM, so I'd suggest it is around for the near to mid future.  Personally, I think 60% on CFAT is absurd but it is what it is....

I agree 110%. I was blown away when I actually saw what the breakdown was. I didn't even think the personality test was scored either as that was the most useless questionnaire I've ever done in my life. Also, how can everything you've done in your military career and all the traits you've actually displayed over your career only be worth 25%?  This covers leadership, experience, courses, education, PERFORMANCE etc....the only thing I can think of is the CFAT is as unbiased as possible. How you are scored on the interview depends on the PSO and every PSO will score differently since they are human and not a computer spitting out a score. The trade you are trying to OT to has absolutely nothing to do with the boards either. It is a PSO.

 

[Andraste]

Good afternoon,

To provide a bit of logic behind the process.  The CFAT is a test of general intelligence (g) and the selection literature bears out through research that cognitive ability (g) is the single biggest predictor of success on ab initio training followed by personality constructs (conscientiousness, emotional stability) and straggling behind is biodata (past experience). 

This in no way negates your past experience but statistically it does not add as much to selection model as "g" and "personality". In addition, tests are objective measures of constructs of interest with no bias or self-inflation.  For example, you have experience in some aspect of the target MOSID but it is just that experience and you are assigned a relative score.  It does not mean that your core underlying attributes will make you successful.  Intuitively this makes sense . . . I have run across plenty of folks who have had experience in some aspect of what is being looked out (leadership, job, tasks) but that is where it ends.  If that person is low in conscientiousness and emotional stability with a low "g" all the experience in the world is not going to make up for that.  Conversely a person high in personality traits of interest and "g" with the same level of experience is more likely to do better in competition with her/his peers.

Cheers

Andraste

 

[dapaterson]

Ah, an area where the CAF employs evidence based decision making, instead of decision based evidence making.

 

[Andraste]

snip . . . How you are scored on the interview depends on the PSO and every PSO will score differently since they are human and not a computer spitting out a score. The trade you are trying to OT to has absolutely nothing to do with the boards either. It is a PSO.

Hello,

I missed your last part in my reading so I just wanted to bring a bit of fidelity to your observations. WRT the PSO interview and rating error, yes and no.  You are correct that each of us when rating another individual will see things differently but this holds more to what is referred to as a "unstructured interview".  Specifically, I ask you a lot of open ended questions of my choosing (may differ depending on how I feel that day) I take a few notes then render a decision based on my own devised scoring process.  If another person was to interview you again and employ the same process the score would most likely be significantly different.  In addition you have to work in any biases I am may have towards you which may flavor how I score you.  In the CAF selection model this is mitigated by employing a structured interview. Specifically, candidates are all asked the same questions relating to skills and experience (biodata) and each is scored using the same rating scale (i.e., there is no judgment).  Will some error creep in?  Potentially, but the bracketing between scores is quite small so identical answers from two different people assessed by different PSOs may differ by .05 - 1 point.

I am not sure what you meant by the "the trade you are trying to OT to has nothing to do with boards either. It is a PSO".  PSOs provide a recommendation based on the file (CFAT, TSD, Interview, admin/disciplinary issues, personnel file review).  It is just that . . . a scored recommendation.  The file is sent to a national board and the target MOSID folks review each file and make a selection.  Does the PSO recommendation weigh heavily?  Most likely as it is a summary of the applicant's ability to perform well in the target MOSID.

Hope this helps shine a bit of light on things.

Cheers

Andraste

 

[DrSize]

Actually this does help shine some light on the thought process behind everything.  This should help people applying for an OT in the future as I wish I had some of this background prior to applying.  Once again, the best advice I can give for people going through the process is to make sure you have a strong CFAT score.

 

[cld617]

Curious if anyone has experience pursuing a VOT while opted out of receiving PER's in their current trade. My desire to progress beyond my current rank in MOC is nil, however I do not want to shoot myself in the foot by appearing as an underachiever in my VOT application to a very competitive trade.

 

[Dingoo]

To Andraste and Eye in the Sky;

I have read the posts on this thread that you guys have made in regards to AVOTP, and am hoping you can clear something up for me. I am currently a WEng Tech on my DP1 package and am hoping to transfer to ATIS Tech. I have been hearing different answers from many different people, of all ranks and positions, on where I need to be in my training in order to apply for the AVOTP. So far my chain of command beleives I have to be ON my DP2 package in order to apply, yet a CPO2 I spoke with beleive I should be able to apply right now. As you guys have stated the CFAO 11-12 states that you must be QL 4 qualified, and I beleive, if I understood correctly, that you guys stated that if a trade has no QL4 qualification, then QL3 is used instead OR the trades Operational Functional Point (OFP)? As I understand, my trade has no QL4 qualification. Its QL3, then DP1 then DP2, then QL5, and if the OFP is when you are posted to your first operational billet, then I beleive that is also QL3, as I assume that would be when you are posted to a ship.  If you guys could help me understand I would be very appreciative as being able to apply now over having to finish my DP1 in order to apply is a huge difference for me. If you need anymore info let me know. 

Thanks guys

 

[sidemount]

I would give a call to the PSOs office where you are at,  I'm sure they would have an answer for you right away

Sent from my Samsung S6 using Tapatalk

 

[Dingoo]

Hey,

Thanks for the reply sidemount. I actually had a meeting with a BPSO ealier this year and was told basically that they dont know what QL4 is for WEng Techs and that they just go with whatever the applicants chain of command says. I was pretty shocked about that as thats where most people I've talked to have told me to go for answers. :/

 

[sidemount]

Yeah that sounds like a pretty flakey response.

I guess next would be to finish your DP1, get out to your unit and talk with your supervisors there and put in the paperwork if thats what you really want. You will find out pretty quickly if you are good to go or not haha.

Sent from my Samsung S6 using Tapatalk

 

[Dingoo]

I know exactly what my chain of command will say haha.   But I've heard some conflicting information that would make things much easier for me so I am hoping that Eye in the Sky or Andraste might have some answers or insight, as they seem pretty knowlegable on the subject.

 

[DAA]

I know exactly what my chain of command will say haha.   But I've heard some conflicting information that would make things much easier for me so I am hoping that Eye in the Sky or Andraste might have some answers or insight, as they seem pretty knowlegable on the subject.

Maybe this link will help in understanding the DP levels  --->  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5031-8.page#ncmpd

In general terms, you can request an Occupational Reassignment (OR) at anytime prior to completion of your QL3 (DP1) training.  This is not the optimum nor preferred route to take, as the CAF hired you for a specific occupation which you accepted.  Nevertheless, if you can't see yourself being employed in your chosen occupation for 4-7 years down the road, then a request for an OR will be your only option other than releasing.  Which SIP an OR would be counted against, Andraste should be able to answer.

Other than that, once you have successfully completed your initial occupation training and posted for first time employment (ie; post QL3/DP1 Trg), you will be subject to the requirements associated with the AVOT Program, which is usually 36 or 48 months of service in the CAF and sometimes needing to be at the rank of Cpl.  If you have access to a DWAN computer, you can always look up the CANFORGENS and search for AVOT, which will show you the requirements for he current/previous years competitions.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The wording in the CFAO is initial occupation trg.  I was a QL3 qual'd ATIS Tech when I applied, and because ATIS had no QL4, they had to accept QL3.

I got my OT.  3 reasons;  (1)  I knew how to find and interpret the regs (2) I didn't fall for the Jedi Mind tricks and (3) I used reasonable arguments to defeat the BS my CofC was using.  Arguments based on policy.

The CFAO has not been superseded yet to my knowledge.  Find and read CFAO 11-12.  The use of OFP is part of a draft DAOD that hasn't been signed off yet and isn't found in the CFAO.  If this went to a grievance, I highly suspect the IA or FA would find in favour of the griever. 

 

[Dingoo]

Hey thanks for the reply Eye,

The most I could dig up is DAOD 5031-8 Canadian Forces Professional Development:

Note – CM progresses from DP 1 to DP 2 upon achieving the applicable OFP. The OFP occurs when an NCM completes all qualifications required for first employment in the military occupation. At that point, an NCM is posted off the basic training list to a trained effective strength position. The OFP for each military occupation is contained in the military occupation specification maintained by the DPGR.

As far as my MPRR tells me I am QL3 qualified, also I am posted to a ship and am able to be deployed. Therefore it seems TO ME that that means I am have completed "all qualification required for first employment in the military occupation.".  Would you agree or am I misunderstanding?

I also found this.

CANFORGEN 109/16 CMP 052/16 051414Z JUL 16
2017/2018 VOLUNTARY OCCUPATION TRANSFER (VOT) PROGRAM FOR NCM COMPETITION

2. THE 2017/2018 VOT PROGRAM FOR OFP QUALIFIED CANDIDATES IS OPENED TO ALL OF THE NCM OCCUPATIONS IN ACCORDANCE WITH REF A AND THE 2017/2018 CF INTERNAL STRATEGIC INTAKE PLAN (SIP) FOR REG F PERSONNEL.

It states that the VOT program is for "OFP QUALIFIED CANDIDATES", which would include me if I am interpreting everything properly. It also mentions REF A which is the CFAO 11-12, and that states QL4 qualified. My trade has no QL4 qualification, and you (Eye in the Sky) stated that if there is no QL4 then QL3 must be used, but I haven't been able to come across any documents yet that mention anything like that. Could you direct me to something if you are able?

I'm basically trying to get information together to convince my CoC that I can apply for the AVOTP now and now when my package is completed.

Thanks again for the help and input everyone.

Also DAA, I looked at the link you sent me, and it makes things more confusing haha. Because I am a Leading Seaman, QL3 qualified, on DP1 of my OJTP, and then it says in the DP2 part that you get up to QL5A. But we WEng Techs don't get to QL5 until after our DP2 is finished and we do a Board and THEN go to and complete our specific trade training (either sonar, radar, FC, armament, comms). Agh! Makes no sense to me.