Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual

[Loachman]

Think about the Air Forces that deploy to international air shows and will be in the public eye: They get their best dress and behaviour on, and are well above the level of dress they would wear for deployment to an allied exercise.

The difference between Full Ceremonial Flying Suit and its "exercise" equivalent is merely the elapsed time from laundry to wear - at most.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Where did you find that? My DWAN bookmark for those minutes hasn't been updated since 2016's meetings.

I think there is a link to what you're looking for on the RCAF CWO DWAN page....NDCDC?  (or whatever the abbrev works out to...)

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Optional becomes "recommended" which eventually becomes "go talk to the RSM/Adjt and tell them why you think you shouldn't buy one" and eventually becomes accepted as mandatory.

I think you're still talking about mess kits...if so; Pg 2-1-8 of CFP 265, Para 55

WEAR OF MESS DRESS

55.Acquisition

a. All Regular Force officers are required to be in possession of mess dress No. 2, *which shall be procured at individual expense. Newly-commissioned officers are required to obtain this order of dress not later than six months after commissioning.

b. Mess dress No. 2 is optional for Regular Force non-commissioned members and all members of the Reserve Force. Acquisition is the responsibility of the individual.

*not saying I agree with the policy personally; just pointing out what it is IAW 265.  I've wondered a few times what would happen if someone didn't who fell under 55(a) and their CofC tried to charge them under the CSD.

Leads me to a question;  do Band personnel pay for their 'mess kit-like' uniforms?  Ref:  http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/news-template-standard.page?doc=rcaf-band-twin-talents/j56y6b79

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Think about the Air Forces that deploy to international air shows and will be in the public eye: They get their best dress and behaviour on, and are well above the level of dress they would wear for deployment to an allied exercise.

Like this?  For the record, that's a Swordfish patch.    My guess is the pic is from RIAT 2017.

Honestly, the only CAF folks I've seen in fancy stuff at airshows are the Snowbirds and Skyhawks.  Even bigger ones like the RIAT, I don't think the crews stand the statics in DEU.  Dress of the day AFAIK (I've never done RIAT).  Not a lot of room on the plane for 20 sets of DEUs actually.

 

[PuckChaser]

I think there is a link to what you're looking for on the RCAF CWO DWAN page....NDCDC?  (or whatever the abbrev works out to...)

I'll take a look tomorrow. I had the link for the committee bookmarked but they haven't been updating it, it was hidden on the DHH DWAN website. It wouldn't surprised me that they moved the archive and just made it impossible for the crappy DWAN search to find it.

 

[Remius]

I think you're still talking about mess kits...if so; Pg 2-1-8 of CFP 265, Para 55

WEAR OF MESS DRESS

55.Acquisition

a. All Regular Force officers are required to be in possession of mess dress No. 2, *which shall be procured at individual expense. Newly-commissioned officers are required to obtain this order of dress not later than six months after commissioning.

b. Mess dress No. 2 is optional for Regular Force non-commissioned members and all members of the Reserve Force. Acquisition is the responsibility of the individual.

*not saying I agree with the policy personally; just pointing out what it is IAW 265.  I've wondered a few times what would happen if someone didn't who fell under 55(a) and their CofC tried to charge them under the CSD.

Leads me to a question;  do Band personnel pay for their 'mess kit-like' uniforms?  Ref:  http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/news-template-standard.page?doc=rcaf-band-twin-talents/j56y6b79

Concert dress is considered occupational dress.  So no?  At least not in the regular force I believe.  It is on par with what chaplains and MPs wear.  As per ch. 7 of the dress regs.  So my inclination is to say no.  It isn’t actually mess kit despite the resemblance.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

In the pics, the dress looks like cross between the 'new' RCAF mess kit look/color and the cut of the older one.  The ranks don't have the 'braided' look to them either, they look more like the DEU rank.

I have the new one;  thank god I didn't need the gold stripes and such.  $$$

 

[Remius]

In the pics, the dress looks like cross between the 'new' RCAF mess kit look/color and the cut of the older one.  The ranks don't have the 'braided' look to them either, they look more like the DEU rank.

I have the new one;  thank god I didn't need the gold stripes and such.  $$$

Yeah, and i believe that miniatures are not worn on concert dress.  Just medals. The army concert dress is red with a similar cut.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Oldgateboatdriver]

The  RCMP studies how the public interacts with them and how their appearance affects the public's perception. That's fine but there is a relation with the public that is different from the military ones and I for one don't believe that they intersect.

You see, the RCMP is the police: They are, for the public, the representation in their life of the power of the state over them as enforcers of the law. Military personnel, on the other hand is the representation of the power of the state in their favour, against external enemies - protecting the public from external harm.
[/quote]

when it comes to the power of the state over them as enforcers of the law  I think this very much applies to the military and our subordinate/superior relationship. I think the RCMP study makes sense in that context.

 

[TQMS]

This is a real position?

Right from the signature block.

G1 Dress and Ceremonial, CA HQ
Canadian Armed Forces

 

[dimsum]

The difference between Full Ceremonial Flying Suit and its "exercise" equivalent is merely the elapsed time from laundry to wear - at most.

And whether the patches are actually yours or the ones you switched with foreign military crews, usually because they're cooler and in full colour. 

 

[Halifax Tar]

White uniforms and HCW Tunics have a long standing Naval tradition in all Navies that can draw lineage from the RN.  The tunic should be publicly funded through Logisticorp or they just get ride of the whites all together.

Also I find it very hard to believe that SOF Members paid out of pocket for DEUs.  And even if they did I would imagine they were reimbursed.

Remember OGB and Pusser we are a Joint = JArmy run organisation.

 

[Remius]

White uniforms and HCW Tunics have a long standing Naval tradition in all Navies that can draw lineage from the RN.  The tunic should be publicly funded through Logisticorp or they just get ride of the whites all together.

Also I find it very hard to believe that SOF Members paid out of pocket for DEUs.  And even if they did I would imagine they were reimbursed.

Remember OGB and Pusser we are a Joint = JArmy run organisation.

Why get rid of it?  I still haven’t seen why it should be 1B.  The RN doesn’t have whites as 1B. If we want to follow their tradition which is indeed what we base ours on, then only those above the rank of Commander wear the High Collared Whites with some exceptions as directed.  Should we fund it for those individuals? Maybe.  I don’t know the frequency they would need it for but I bet that a good chunk already have a set they bought themselves. 

Why is this an army vs Navy thing?  The only ones doing this seem to be you Navy Types.  The army is not being funded for patrols or equivalent dress to the HCW.  So why does the Navy feel they should be?  Also note that SOF didn’t get another uniform.  They have a new one that replaces the DEU they used to have.  I didn’t see the full minutes but how do you know the army shut this down?  Maybe they supported but there is a board of advisers like DHH etc that likely explained far better than I have why whites as 1B would be wrong and the reasons not to publicly fund a second uniform when one currently exists.

If the Navy wants a new uniform, cool.  But do it right.  Not make some other order of dress into something it shouldn’t be nor was it designed to be. 

The Navy has an optional order of dress that most in the CAF don’t have.  Cool.  But it is situational and sporadic like patrol dress for some reserve units.  Neither should be funded publicly except for maybe a few people, like embassy attaches, command pers. Etc.

If the navy feels they need new DEUs and a ceremonial uniform then make the appropriate proposal

 

[jollyjacktar]

The RN does have their whites for summer dress occasions equal to our DEU. 

We don't go as far as we're missing a tunic to go with our white trousers and shoes.  That's all that is missing so it's not as expensive as it could be.

I'm personally ambivalent on the matter and are not bothered one way or the other.

 

[Pusser]

Why get rid of it?  I still haven’t seen why it should be 1B.  The RN doesn’t have whites as 1B. If we want to follow their tradition which is indeed what we base ours on, then only those above the rank of Commander wear the High Collared Whites with some exceptions as directed.  Should we fund it for those individuals? Maybe.  I don’t know the frequency they would need it for but I bet that a good chunk already have a set they bought themselves. 

Why is this an army vs Navy thing?  The only ones doing this seem to be you Navy Types.  The army is not being funded for patrols or equivalent dress to the HCW.  So why does the Navy feel they should be?  Also note that SOF didn’t get another uniform.  They have a new one that replaces the DEU they used to have.  I didn’t see the full minutes but how do you know the army shut this down?  Maybe they supported but there is a board of advisers like DHH etc that likely explained far better than I have why whites as 1B would be wrong and the reasons not to publicly fund a second uniform when one currently exists.

If the Navy wants a new uniform, cool.  But do it right.  Not make some other order of dress into something it shouldn’t be nor was it designed to be. 

The Navy has an optional order of dress that most in the CAF don’t have.  Cool.  But it is situational and sporadic like patrol dress for some reserve units.  Neither should be funded publicly except for maybe a few people, like embassy attaches, command pers. Etc.

If the navy feels they need new DEUs and a ceremonial uniform then make the appropriate proposal

The idea of making HCW 1B is strictly so it can be publicly funded.  The trouble is with our numbering system, however.  It simply does not account for two different, yet equivalent orders of dress.  Notwithstanding the cut of the collar, HCW is not equivalent to patrol dress for the Army.  Patrol dress has a specific ceremonial function different from that of the regular green service dress.  HCW, however, is simply a summer version of the Navy's blue service dress.  In other words, it should be numbered 1 and 1A, but that would be confusing in the current chart because those numbers are already taken.  Incidentally, RCN 1.0 addressed this issue by numbering winter/temperate uniforms 1-5 and summer/tropical uniforms 11-15, thus regular dress with medals and accoutrements was No 1 and HCW with medals and accoutrements was No 11.

At one point, everybody was issued two sets of service dress.  The Army had the green and the tan ones and the Air Force had two weights of the same colour uniform.  The Navy was initially supposed to have one white and one blue, but some idiots in NDHQ decided that we needed two blue jackets instead, thus we lost public funding for a white tunic.  Over time, the Air Force decided that there was no point in issuing both winter and summer weight versions of their uniform, largely because no one ever wore the winter weight one, and the Army decided it had too many uniforms, so they dropped the tan one.  Unfortunately, the Navy, despite actually having a need for a summer uniform, is now caught up in a culture that says only one dress uniform is required.  Thus we will continue to parade in a winter weight wool uniform that sucks up the sunlight when standing beside our allies who are all dressed in a sensible lightweight uniform that reflects it.

I am not against the unified force concept.  It has many benefits.  But this idea that just because we are unified means we also have to be "equal" in all things, gets really annoying sometimes.  It often seems that naval custom and culture is forced to take a back seat to whatever the green machine wants.

 

[Journeyman]

It often seems that naval custom and culture is forced to take a back seat to whatever the green machine wants.

Wow, maybe change your screen name to Adm. Rosa Parks. 

Just as Herbert Marcuse once said "not every problem you're having with your girlfriend is necessarily due to the capitalist mode of production," perhaps.... just maybe .... not every  RCN problem is due to a green-suited boogeyman actively plotting 'how can I f*ck over those sailors.' ,

      :

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I'll make a last post commenting on some points raised in Remius' last post above, then leave it at that no matter what, as I think I have beaten this horse to death.

First of all, Remius, the RN doesn't have 1B's because the RN doesn't have ANY letter system on their uniform system where levels are concerned: the letters only indicate if with arms/medals.

The uniforms of the RN are first "coloured" then, numbered - and that's it. So they have Blues number one's to Blues number fours, and Whites number one's to Whites number three's. Then, as an extra specifier, they indicate "with" or "without" medals, arms, etc with letters. And ALL these orders of dress are made available at the Crown's expense in some form to ALL Ratings, Pettys, Chiefs, Warrants and Officers.

So, in RN parlance equivalents would be:

RCN 1  --> RN Blues number One's A
RCN 1A --> RN Blues number One's B
RCN 1C --> RN Whites number One's WB
RCN 1D --> RN Whites number One's WC

Now, to  address the constant return to trying to make the current RCN's 1C and 1D equivalent to Army "patrols". The comparison is incorrect. The idea behind the "patrols" is to give various regiment/organizations the capability to have their own, historical, regimental ceremonial dress to be worn instead of the DEU's number One's. They are an alternate order of ceremonial dress.

The RCN's 1C and 1D are not "alternate" or worn "instead" of number 1 or 1A: They are the tropical/summer version of the 1 and 1A. Like the old winter / summer dress, they are worn AS number one's during the designated summer period or in designated tropical waters.

Here is the second description from the RN on when to wear the Whites number one's, for instance: They are worn : "when required to conform with accepted international standards of dress on state or major ceremonial occasions". Note the "diplomatic" aspect of wearing it.

P.S.: I note you mention that in the RN it is the officers above Commanders who wear the high collar white jacket. That's fine with me, I'd much rather that Commanders and below, down to the most junior ratings, be provided with the RN's bush jacket White's number One's.  :nod:

 

[Pusser]

Wow, maybe change your screen name to Adm. Rosa Parks. 

Just as Herbert Marcuse once said "not every problem you're having with your girlfriend is necessarily due to the capitalist mode of production," perhaps.... just maybe .... not every  RCN problem is due to a green-suited boogeyman actively plotting 'how can I **** over those sailors.' ,

      :

So prove that I'm wrong on this.  I can give you an example.  It's taken us years to get folks to concede that naval officer sword belts are properly worn underneath the jacket.  So, we've seen more than one case recently of naval officers (admittedly, usually junior and still afraid of senior NCOs) wearing a naval sword belt underneath the jacket AND a white belt over top!  WTF?  Upon investigation, this was usually at the insistence of an Army NCO, so that the naval officer would look like everyone else (notwithstanding the different colour of uniform).  What I find most interesting though, is even in a guard made up entirely of soldiers from different corps or regiments, no highlander is ever asked to swap his glengarry for a beret or to wear trousers in order to look everyone else.  No infantry sergeant would ever be asked to remove his red sash because no one else is wearing them.  The list goes on.

 

[Remius]

Pusser and OGBD

I'm not sure where you guys are getting any of that info.

The dress regs disagree with both of you.  if the navy has its own internal language that's fine but it doesn't seem legal or approved.

Take a look in Chapter 6.  http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/ins-265/dhh_dress_instr_adh265000_ag001-19Sep16-eng.pdf

There is also a complete run down about who pays for what in there.

Undress is not the same as full dress.

15. Authorized Wear
a. Undress is authorized for wear only by:
A-DH-265-000/AG-001
6-3
(1) RMCC officer cadets as an undress uniform in accordance with college dress instructions;
(2) Navy members as a summer white uniform (optional Orders 1C and 1D – high-collared whites); and
(3) members of the Army Reserve as optional Orders 1C and 1D, e.g., patrol dress.
b. Undress may also be worn without orders, decorations and medals (undress ribbons may be worn in lieu)
on less formal occasions when the wearing of orders, decorations and medals would be considered
inappropriate.
c. Accoutrements may also be worn with No. 1D order of dress.

So they are, according to the rules, the same order of dress.

 

[Rifleman62]

Pusser:

What I find most interesting though, is even in a guard made up entirely of soldiers from different corps or regiments, no highlander is ever asked to swap his glengarry for a beret or to wear trousers in order to look everyone else.  No infantry sergeant would ever be asked to remove his red sash because no one else is wearing them.  The list goes on.

Not quite. There has been several instances where Rifle Regt pers where ordered to remove black web belts, (rifle slings at one time), frogs, and gloves and wear white on National parades in a Guard of Honour.