Uniforms at RMC

[cavalryman]

Just me or are the only people who like this thing the ones not wearing it, I joined the CF, not RMC. I want to dress like a member of the CF, not a member of a boys club.

This coming from someone whose profile indicates affiliation to a Highland Regiment, i.e. kilts and all instead of CF standard dress... :  RMC uniforms are just like regimental uniforms, and yes, I wore those uniforms in my distant youth, so I know of what I speak, and I agree with the move to reinstate RMC uniforms.

 

[AmphibousAssult]

Highland kit is designed to create a sense of identity within a unit, what is the point of creating a sense of identity within a unit where the units sole purpose is to send its members to other units? This seems counter-productive to me. ???

 

[Drummy]

Just me or are the only people who like this thing the ones not wearing it, I joined the CF, not RMC. I want to dress like a member of the CF, not a member of a boys club.

To me, that reads as if you would like to see everyone in the same uniform(Navy, Army, and Airforce). Oh boy, something new! 

Drummy

 

[AmphibousAssult]

In case you did not read my past post directly above yours I'm also all for fostering unit identity, something unification uniforms did a poor job of doing. However as previously stated "what is the point of creating a sense of identity within a unit where the units sole purpose is to send its members to other units? This seems counterproductive to me."

 

[tabernac]

In case you did not read my past post directly above yours I'm also all for fostering unit identity, something unification uniforms did a poor job of doing. However as previously stated "what is the point of creating a sense of identity within a unit where the units sole purpose is to send its members to other units? This seems counterproductive to me."

On the eVeritas site it went into greater detail as to why the switch from elemental uniforms being common place as Dress of the Day, to this RMC only uniform. As opposed to Squadrons fostering their own unique groups, which would be expected, people were breaking off into their own elemental splinter fractions, transcending, and excluding Squadron lines. IMO, thats not how you foster Esprit de Corps. Apparently someone agrees.

Being someone who'll be wearing this uniform next year, I want to see something less "technical" then the jacket, which looks like the Navy CANEX jacket. I've seen older pictures of the battledress blouses, and they looked better, more professional.

Now I'm kinda getting ahead of myself, but a black forage/peak cap w/ red piping would be nice too..

 

[garb811]

In case you did not read my past post directly above yours I'm also all for fostering unit identity, something unification uniforms did a poor job of doing. However as previously stated "what is the point of creating a sense of identity within a unit where the units sole purpose is to send its members to other units? This seems counterproductive to me."

By that standard, you could say the same thing about Reserve units, no?

 

[AmphibousAssult]

cheeky_monkey, have you ever been to RMC? I've lived and worked here for the past two years, and I can tell you with great certainty that no elemental factions exist (I'm army, most of my buddies are chair...errr I mean air force) and as for squadron identity that is something that occurs at the squadron level, not at the college level. My squadron for example regularly has squadron events, where we have the chance to meet and socialize amongst ourselves. I know for a fact that this does not occur as regularly in other squadrons and the effect on their cohesion is noticeable, a new uniform wont change this.

garb811, No, reserve units on occasion do deploy as formed units. Their performance on operation and in training is directly realted to their unit cohesion, they are also not solely a recruiting ground for reg force units.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Marksman, by your hypotheses RMC should also dispense with the scarlets and organ grinder monkey's hat as that uniform does not reflect the distinctive nature of cadets intending to go to the navy and air force.  Perhaps RMC should be done away with altogether by your reasoning.  You stressed the point that it is "counterproductive" to dress the inmates of RMC in the same garb as its "sole purpose is to send its members to other units".  Strange, I thought RMC was established "for the purpose of providing a complete education in all branches of military tactics, fortification, engineering, and general scientific knowledge in subjects connected with and necessary to thorough knowledge of the military profession". 

Graduates of that institution seem proud (well, they proclaim it often enough) of their heritage in producing leaders for the "Canadian Forces and our nation".  Producing leaders for the Canadian Forces, not spitting out infantry officers, or logisticians or naval officers or pilots.  Those are the roles of other CF units.  If a focus of RMC (which I personally believe it has lost) is to produce the kind of military professional that will one day "lead" at the higher echelons of the CF (not individual, single environment units), then should not that education and socialization begin at RMC.  It may be a simple thing, but clothing all the same may instill a sense that all (whether they end up army, navy or air force) have a common goal.  Hopefully, twenty or thirty years down the road when they are working with (or for) someone in a different uniform they may be sensible enough to not automatically judge others by the uniform they wear. 

Besides, having a distinctive cadet dress makes it easier to identify them as what they are.  RMC cadets.

 

[Big Foot]

cheeky_monkey, have you ever been to RMC? I've lived and worked here for the past two years, and I can tell you with great certainty that no elemental factions exist (I'm army, most of my buddies are chair...errr I mean air force) and as for squadron identity that is something that occurs at the squadron level, not at the college level. My squadron for example regularly has squadron events, where we have the chance to meet and socialize amongst ourselves. I know for a fact that this does not occur as regularly in other squadrons and the effect on their cohesion is noticeable, a new uniform wont change this.

garb811, No, reserve units on occasion do deploy as formed units. Their performance on operation and in training is directly realted to their unit cohesion, they are also not solely a recruiting ground for reg force units.

Marksman, in my four years at RMC, I have seen a lot of change, perhaps the most negative being the removal of the #5s. The distinctive college dress uniform enstilled a great sense of pride in me when I wore it. It also reinforced the chain of command at the college by allowing barmen to visibly display their "badge of office" even when wearing a jacket. I can say that as a senior barman, there has been a great deterioration, especially among the younger years, in terms of respect for seniority and for bar positions. As an example, this past semester, I was correcting a first year cadet for improper dress and instead of simply heeding my order, he straight out questioned me as to who I was and why I was giving him the order. In my first and second year, I noticed that people tended to pay a lot more attention to what CFLs, CSTOs and CSSs had to say because they could blatantly see that the person addressing them was a person in a position of authority. In my mind, RMC is a proud institution with a proud history and is a distinctive unit within the CF and I see no reason why we can't return to a DoD which is unique to RMC. The DCdts buzzword of cohesion is very key. Since the change from 5s to 3Bs as the DoD, there has been a shift from overall cohesion within the scope of a single RMC identity to a divided wing which identifies more with their elements than with their squadrons or with the College in general. I applaud the move back to #5s.

 

[garb811]

garb811, No, reserve units on occasion do deploy as formed sub-units. Their performance on operation and in training is directly realted to their unit cohesion, they are also not solely a recruiting ground for reg force units.

There, fixed that for you. 

Like it or not, reserve units, even in the best case scenario, are only able to mount sub-unit sized elements.  Like it or not reserve units currently exist to augment other units and formations, either at the individual augmentee or sub-/sub-sub-/sub-sub-sub unit level or to form a ad-hoc unit with other reserve sub-units. 

Additionally, RMC cadets will spend more time in their distinctive uniform during their time at RMC than an average reserve member will spend in their distinctive uniform in their entire career. 

 

[aesop081]

(I'm army, most of my buddies are chair...errr I mean air force)

That joke might mean something if you had any experience to back it up.

 

[AmphibousAssult]

CDN Aviator- If you're looking for members with a lack of experience there are much easier targets on this board, also my experience is relevant to this topic, If you have anything you would like to say to me about my humour which is not relevant to this topic, its called a PM

garb811- Agreed, reserves are primarily augmentees, however training is conducted at the unit level, as a unit, and cohesion is relative to this end.

Big Foot- Your bar position is displayed directly on your brassard while in elemental dress, (lets not get into CADPAT as that will most likely stick around despite the new uniform, and since neither of us knows lets not speculate.) If you disagree with overt elemental cohesion (if there is any to begin with) why do we have EPT?

Blackadder1916- We already have enough distinctive uniforms. This is a pointless waste of money that could be better spent on training the cadets in pertinent fields (like perhaps more then 60 rounds out of the C7 on the range once a year). Yes RMC is an education with a difference and yes it does train the leaders of tomorrow... who must first all participate in a regular unit until they are finished the duration of their contract. RMC is a course, at the end we receive a course report, a commission and a degree. The uniform I wear during my university will not change the way I think down the road. Whatever happened to if it ain't broke don't fix it? And as for judging someone by the uniform they wear, I honestly have no idea where this hypothesis of yours came from. In my degree program I have friends from all three different elements that I work with on a continuous basis, as do all degree programs. I have yet to meet anyone here who judges someone based on the colour of their uniform.

 

[breezie]

Daft question, but does anyone know if women have to wear the skirt, or can we wear pants if we wish? Just wondering. ;D

 

[Good2Golf]

CDN Aviator- If you're looking for members with a lack of experience there are much easier targets on this board, also my experience is relevant to this topic, If you have anything you would like to say to me about my humour which is not relevant to this topic, its called a PM

Marksman, CDN Aviator is not looking for targets, he is addressing your slagging the air force with what, by your profile, would seem to be minimal experience of that environment.

garb811- Agreed, reserves are primarily augmentees, however training is conducted at the unit level, as a unit, and cohesion is relative to this end.

...but as Garb noted, not operationally employed at the unit level.

Big Foot- Your bar position is displayed directly on your brassard while in elemental dress, (lets not get into CADPAT as that will most likely stick around despite the new uniform, and since neither of us knows lets not speculate.) If you disagree with overt elemental cohesion (if there is any to begin with) why do we have EPT?

Big Foot was speaking to the issue of visibility of the appointment of cadet officers as likely improving what he has noted as a degradation in respect shown to senior cadets.  Yes, bars are also on the brassard, but his point was more about the visibility of the insignia and its "appreciation".

Blackadder1916- We already have enough distinctive uniforms. This is a pointless waste of money that could be better spent on training the cadets in pertinent fields (like perhaps more then 60 rounds out of the C7 on the range once a year). Yes RMC is an education with a difference and yes it does train the leaders of tomorrow... who must first all participate in a regular unit until they are finished the duration of their contract. RMC is a course, at the end we receive a course report, a commission and a degree. The uniform I wear during my university will not change the way I think down the road. Whatever happened to if it ain't broke don't fix it? And as for judging someone by the uniform they wear, I honestly have no idea where this hypothesis of yours came from. In my degree program I have friends from all three different elements that I work with on a continuous basis, as do all degree programs. I have yet to meet anyone here who judges someone based on the colour of their uniform.

RMC is a "course"...?  What I wear at "university"...?  Ain't broke, don't fix it...?  No idea where judging someone by the uniform they wear came from?

At least one can say that your view of things is....well, yours.  We think we've got it...perhaps some listening silence, or at least a slightly less combatitive style might be in order.

G2G
_ _ 3 0

 

[a78jumper]

Believe Bill Oliver is the Exec Director of the RMC Club. As for a distictive college uniform, I would have despised wearing the Navy uniform twelve months of the year-doing so on summer training was about all I could take, though at least it was the green CF work dress, and our dress uniform S-3 was also green. (Dating myself). I sold the p[tional whites I was forced to purchase so some MARS guy could get rigged out as a navy wanna be on trafalgar Day. There is a lot of shifting that goes on from element to element while people decide what they really want to do, vs what some recruiter decided based on quotas imho, thus one tri service college uniform seems to fit the requirement.  The battle blouse was a good piece of kit though some people -taller ones- looked better in it than others.

 

[NovaScotiaNewfie]

Calgone...CADPAT is not a rip off of MARPAT...CADPAT came out first...and the Canadian Government helped provide some material to help the USMC Design MARPAT (http://www.hyperstealth.com/CADPAT-MARPAT.htm)..I have no idea as to the validity of the claim..but CADPAT did come out first.

 

[NovaScotiaNewfie]

Whoops I might have read that wrong..when you said "CadetPAT" I thought it was a play on words for CADPAT....if I misread I appoligize.

 

[cavalryman]

Marksman,

It does appear that you don't get the concept of cohesion.  One common uniform for the unit.  I'm in an armour unit and everyone gets to wear the black beret, whether they're armour or not.  RMC has a proud tradition, one that is almost as old as this country, and part of that tradition is a distinct uniform, one based on older orders of dress that recall this proud tradition.  There  is a reason RMC has the right of the line on any parade - seniority in the regular service (founded 1876 - seven years prior to the founding date of the RCD and The RCR, the senior regiments of armour and infantry).  The kind of thinking you're displaying in this thread would have been unheard of when I went through (and I am a graduate, in case I haven't made that clear in my last post) and if this is common at the College these days, there is something lacking in the teaching of officership.

 

[Lumber]

Marksman, by your hypotheses RMC should also dispense with the scarlets and organ grinder monkey's hat as that uniform does not reflect the distinctive nature of cadets intending to go to the navy and air force.  Perhaps RMC should be done away with altogether by your reasoning.  You stressed the point that it is "counterproductive" to dress the inmates of RMC in the same garb as its "sole purpose is to send its members to other units". 

Lets not make any brash decisions. I will not say we absolutely need one, nor that we absolutely need the other; we need both.

I think we need we need to identify both as members of the CF (firstly) and as members of the institutions (secondly). The cap badge, the 4s, the Scarlets and our brassards all serve to identify us as RMC cadets, and sufficiently so, I would like to assert. If we are looking for something that will instill a common feeling of pride and accomplishment, we already have it; when we stand at attention together in Scarlets during graduation, we all know what we have gone through together, and what that place represents.


The goal of being an Officer in the CF should be, IMO, the foremost concern and focus for us cadets, and as such the the CF uniforms should be the DOD, to remind us of this goal.

NOTE: for those who will say "but you will get to wear your elemental dress once a week" <--- thats what it claims in the article. First, it's will be combats, and second, it will will be on Wednesday and because of Wednesday PMT we will all be wearing our beautiful pickle suits, NAVY included.

I know its been beaten to death but I half to seriously reiterate that the claim that the elemental uniforms caused elemental "cohesion", and that there is no Squadron cohesion. Hogwash! Insanity! Lies! B-S! Seriously though, who came up with this? Has he ever been to a Sports Day? Or to an IM game that pits squadron against squadron? Flag Party competition? The Obstacle Course?! None of my best friends are in the Navy, nor do I ever see anyone associating with people of only one element.

Big Foot: This is a whole other discussion in itself, but I'm not sure making bar positions more visible will make a difference. The disrespect he showed you, and that has been shown on other occasions, is despicable and totally unacceptable, but has more to do with the character of the people involved. The importance of the bar positions needs to be made more apparent, but at the same time those holding the bar positions need to make it clear that 1. they care about what they're doing, and 2. that they are competent leaders. I don't know you, so I won't make any judgments, but you seem like a keen fellow; however, some of those holding bar positions and the quality with which the perform there duties makes it hard to feel respect for the bar slate, wouldn't you agree? Attitude reflects leadership. (at the same time though, the cadet you were correcting was probably an arrogant a**)

Graduates of that institution seem proud (well, they proclaim it often enough) of their heritage in producing leaders for the "Canadian Forces and our nation". 

The focus is on the CF. This is one of the complaints of Ex-Cadets; the focus of RMC is no longer on producing "leaders" but producing "military leaders". They think that the "M" in RMC has become to prevalent. I'm not talking out of my arse here either, it was a matter of discussion on the Veritas website.

Strange, I thought RMC was established "for the purpose of providing a complete education in all branches of military tactics, fortification, engineering, and general scientific knowledge in subjects connected with and necessary to thorough knowledge of the military profession".

Military tactics, fortification, engineering (I assume the military kind)? Maybe on course, but not at RMC. 

Besides, having a distinctive cadet dress makes it easier to identify them as what they are.  RMC cadets.

But how far does it go? Should the RCR have its own distinctive uniform to make it easier to identify them as they are? Members of the RCR? Should 2 RCR have its own distinctive uniform to make it easier to identify them as they are? Members of the 2 RCR?Should M COY, 2 RCR have its own distinctive uniform to make it easier to identify them as they are? Members of the M COY, 2 RCR?  :-\

 

[AmphibousAssult]

HERE HERE LUMBER!!!! (thats for being more articulate than I). Beers on me!!!!