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U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread

Trinity said:
I can't say regardless.... 

I'm sure some of legitmate LEGAL reasons.... not many though.
If someone developed severe mental deficiency... I think that would be
a valid excuse to go AWOL.  Now..  I'm not trying to defend anyone or
say they're all ill... Simply saying a select few could possibly have a
good legal reason that none of us can forsee.

Trinity,

    With respect, if they had a legitimate legal reasons for not going overseas, I'm sure the US Army has procedures to have them removed off of the rotation, or removed from the force alltogether.  I know they have a reputation for not allowing people out of their contracts,  but I am sure that they have procedures for discharge in legitimate cases.

    By breaking their contract they are fugitives under US law. It is a good thing for them they are in Canada.  Funny thing is that US laws don't really apply in Canada - I think it is a throwback to that whole "we are a separate country and we have our own laws" thing.  We want to be a good neighbor, but our first duty should be to the laws in this Country.

    From what I've seen of their literature and media appearances it seems the fundamental assertion they are making is that Iraq is illegal and there for they can not support it.  Now Canada is in a tricky situation,  their argument is sufficient to be granted refugee status, we've given blanket refugee status to larger groups for reasons that aren't nearly as good.  So like I said,  we pull out that fun tradition of allowing function (they are staying here, until they choose to leave) but denying form (we don't formally recognize Iraq as an illegal war of aggression and grant all American deserters sanctuary) Everyone gets basically what they want.  :warstory: 
 
Let's say one of them has severe PTSD.

And instead of doing the normal thing and go to the army and
say.. HEY.. I'm messed up... they panic an run because they're not
thinking straight due to their illness.

Who knows...  even with legit reasons. people do stupid things.
I'm not saying they shouldn't face court but they could still have legitmate
reasons for not going and yet still have come here.

 
Nobody in the US armed forces, regardless of their reason, has the authority to decide on their own that they're not going to serve. Discipline is the bedrock of military service. These people weren't draftees that were forced into the service with no say in the matter. They volunteered, and nobody pushed their hand to the contract. Anybody who flees his/her colors and country, especially in wartime, is an absolute coward. No medical condition, mental problem or anything else can mitigate it or lessen the reality of being a deserter.

There's a fundamental difference between a conscientious objector and somebody who enlists of their own free will. In the US armed forces today, there are no CO's. They're not accepted for enlistment and would only be called to serve if the draft were in effect. Just deciding you're tired and don't want to play any more is not a valid reason to leave. We're not talking about working in a department store here.

 
Red 6 said:
Just deciding you're tired and don't want to play any more is not a valid reason to leave. We're not talking about working in a department store here.

I agree 100%

No medical condition, mental problem or anything else can mitigate it or lessen the reality of being a deserter.

Lessen the reality they are a deserter... ok.. I agree.  Is it possible that they are a deserter but not guilty

  There are two distinct requirement for being guilty
1) mens rea (guilty mind)
2) actus rea (guilty act)

If someone has a mental disability or condition they MAY NOT fulfil the Mens Rea requirement to be guilty.

Simply put.. that is my point. 
I would say 95% of them are guilty on the face of it.
I just don't like to blanket statement all of them as guilty and condemn everyone.


But yes.. technically even those remote few with a legal excuse are still deserters until they
go back, face the music in court and are found innocent.
 
Trinity said:
I just don't like to blanket statement all of them as guilty and condemn everyone.


But yes.. technically even those remote few with a legal excuse are still deserters until they
go back, face the music in court and are found innocent.


We all know what constitutes a act of Desertion or AWOL or place of Duty. You are 100% guilty by the commission of the act. To be found Innocent of the act you would have to have been Forcibly & against your will abducted by a Foreign or Hostile Element or persons or the Confused or Mistaken Orders of a Superior.

Any argument in your Defense would or could only influence the degree of punishment. Regardless of the Mitigation submitted, you are still guilty of Desertion or AWOL, hence the wide paint brush.

Deserters are Deserters no matter what their reasons for deserting are.

Cheers.
 
Well... then we have to agree to disagree...

Cause I think my points are valid and you don't.

Only a JAG will be able to lend a suggestion to this I fear.
 
They deserted a volunteer army, from a democratic country with strong institutions and a functioning legal system. There is a legal system in place that could have heard their cases and give them a relatively fair trial. They are not in danger of being executed or tortured.

To compare them to refuges that escape deathsquads, ethnic cleansing, starvation and brutal government oppression is an insult to these people. 
 
Trinity,

    I think you are 100% right.  If they are crazy then they can't be guilty because they essentially lack free will.  I respectfully submitt that the standard criteria applied to check for mens rea are easily met.  I think that most of them know exactly what they are doing,  they know they are breaking US law and they are aware both of right and wrong and they can interpret the situation. (And if they were the other criteria for mens rea they wouldn't have gotten into the US army in the first place)  There may be some who have a mental disorder, but I sumbit that the majority are fit for trial.

    Now,  it doesn't matter if you volunteered or were drafted it doesn't matter if you are a NCM, Sgt or a 5 Star General, every soldier has a duty to conduct themselves in a moral manner consistent with military law.  If you are given an illegal order, you have a duty to not comply.  Weather or not the war in Iraq is an illegal war they have a moral obligation to dissent from, or if in that war they are ordered to conduct illegal acts is debateable.  From what I've read that is their assertion.

    It doesn't matter if they are Fugitives from US law.  They are in Canada.  Canadians need to decide what they will do.  Under Canadian law,  they are entitled to due process.  It appears extremely likely they meet the conditions under our laws and regulation to qualify for refugee status.  If that is a good thing or a bad thing is another debateable topic.

    On a positive note,  historically after the war is over deserters are given blanket amnesties.  So in 15 years they'll stop being an issue.  (that was a joke  :warstory:)
 
Just a few of points that need to be cleared up. We don't have due process in Canada (that's too much American TV).  We have Administrative Fairness here.  Due Process is an American jurisprudence term.  Not all crimes have a mens rea component to them.  So if the section that runs contrary to the USMCJ for desertion does not include a mens rea component it is otherwise known as a strict or absolute liability offence (which means you either did it, or you didn't - as in parking tickets - you either parked illegally or you didn't park there at all).  You can tell it's a mens rea offence by the wording. (and I'm too lazy to go look it up).  Now, defences for criminal acts are few and far between and depending on the actual offence will depend on the defences allowed.  Not sure about the US but up here, if you are going to use the defence of alibi or insanity it has to be declared at the time of your plea.  If you are pleading small "i" insanity (and again, there are only a few crimes that allow that for a defence), you would have to pass the M'naughten rules of insanity threshold.  Only a murder charge allows for a capital "I" defence of insanity.  And if you are going to plea insanity, up here, it's a one way trip under a Lt. Governor warrant to a psychiatric facility - reviewable every 12 months. As you are probably aware, a plea of insanity is an admission of guilt but you are mitigating the severity of it from not having the requisite ability to form intent through insanity.  Now, being fit to stand trial for reasons of insanity are a whole other process and charges can be stayed until you are deemed fit to stand trial. 

The kicker for any lawyer representing a client that wants to plead insanity is that if you fail to prove the insanity, you've hung your client as being guilty through the testimony required to prove insanity. Lawyers tend to run far far away from advising a client to entering that plea.

Zell I'm not sure why you would think that a US deserter would be entitled to a hearing under Canadian law? Are you suggesting that a deserter be tried up here in Canada? Or are you referring to an immigration/refugee hearing? Or a Canadian law enforcement agency executing an arrest warrant on behalf of the US Military? If the states ask for him back, the only hearing he's going to get is an extradition hearing.  Can you clarify what you mean?

 
Trinity said:
Well... then we have to agree to disagree...

Cause I think my points are valid and you don't.

Only a JAG will be able to lend a suggestion to this I fear.


I am sure there are considerable persons on this Forum other than the JAG that can rule on this point.

If such a ruling is unfavourable, what would your stance then be.

Admittedly, Times and Regulations may have changed over the years. But after working a considerable number of cases of AWOL Service Personal, I never once came across a Service Detainee that was found innocent.

As previously stated, reasons for such behavior were taken into consideration on sentencing, i.e
                    AWOL,  3 days, Drunk, missed Sailing of Vessel, = 21 Days Detention.
                    AWOL, 28 days, Didn't think, Didn't apply for Compassionate Leave, Left after
                                receiving wire, Mother Dying, = 14 Days CB, Loss of pay & $25.00 fine.

Cheers.


 
Bottom line is these people got what they wanted from the forces...and when the forces asked for something back..they ran. POint in life in the forces..you can't pick your war...
 
niner domestic is a lawyer... I look fondly upon her claims

If a US jag came on and say... nope trinity.. I'd bow politely
and say Thank you.


I'm not a simple peon arguing because I think my point is right.
Sadly I have plenty of 3 diplomas of which 2 involve law other
wise I wouldn't be entering an argument with what I thinkthought
was a valid opinion.

Niner domestic has pointed out a slight difference in the American
legal system.. WHICH.. if correct.. means my logic is based on the
wrong system and therefore could be incorrect.  So I must review
the American justice system now.

I did try to google also.. I found cases were desertion in the US was
found not guilty but AWOL was replaced.  Is it possible that someone
here could be found guilty of AWOL instead of desertion. Play on words?
Yes and no.  Still a failure of obligation towards one's country in a time of
war which is very serious but they're not deserters.

Eddy.. I promise you I'm not closed minded here.  My argument is for the
2% of all deserters who MIGHT actually have a legal claim.  That's all I saying.
I do most of these people made clear choices to violate their law and need to
face the music. 


Which leads to a question I don't know.  Why has the American government not
asked us to arrest and deport them? And if they have, why has Canada not done so?
 
niner domestic said:
Zell I'm not sure why you would think that a US deserter would be entitled to a hearing under Canadian law? Are you suggesting that a deserter be tried up here in Canada? Or are you referring to an immigration/refugee hearing? Or a Canadian law enforcement agency executing an arrest warrant on behalf of the US Military? If the states ask for him back, the only hearing he's going to get is an extradition hearing.  Can you clarify what you mean?

Once a person steps foot onto Canadian soil and says "I claim refugee status" (or something to that effect) we do have a process that has to be performed. (Discussed to death already on this thread) From what I've seen, this is independent of how legitimate their claim may be.  I did mean an Immigration hearing to review the legitimacy of their claim. From what I know of the regulations as they stand now and how they've been applied in the past this group would likely get refugee status. 

From my understanding the police here in Canada routinely arrest people for American warrents and after a quick extradition hearing they are sent back.  Imagine a person fleeing a country because of very legitimate reasons,  imagine that government of that country wanting them back for very non-legitimate reasons.  That government asks for them back,  what do we do? Do we automatically give back refugee claimant to the country they are fleeing from or do we have a set procedure in place to determin what to do.  My understanding is that we do the latter.

Unlike Trinity and Niner all of my legal training has been exclusively in commercial law and civil law. And even this mainly focused on torts and contracts.  My exposure to immigration law comes from my socail contacts here in Toronto,  one of my friends is an immigration lawyer and a few others are refugees.  Back when I lived in Alberta I had a Serbian friend who fled to Canada, deserting his military duty, because he could not in good conscience perform his duties.  If I accept his right to come to this country and claim refugee status,  I have to accept that soldiers from other countries can do it. (And just to be extremely clear I am in NO way linking the actions of the two, I am only pointing out that we have one process for all)  Yes we'll have trials to see if they are legitimate or not but until a decision is made they get to stay here under our protection.

And before I forget,  thank you for correcting me for the term Administrative Fairness. I guess I lived to long in the states. (well any length of time is too long - kidding)
 
Another question to answer

is Desertion an offence that requires Mens Rea....
or just actus rea (guilty act) like some other offences...

If we know the answer to that... we can solve this question much faster.
 
Trinity said:
Another question to answer

is Desertion an offence that requires Mens Rea....
or just actus rea (guilty act) like some other offences...

If we know the answer to that... we can solve this question much faster.

http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r630_10.pdf Has a brief rundown of definitions they use and their procedures.


I see they are classified as defectors,  not deserters. From what I am reading there seems to be an assumption that a soldier in service is of sound mind and is fully cognisant of his actions. (I feel this is a safe assumption because if a soldier isn't of sound mind, they shouldn't be in the Armed forces.)  I think in order to get out of this with the "crazy" defence,  they would have to really be "really" crazy,  not just stressed and not thinking clearly.  But, I can see this is a case by case thing.

I'm sifting through as much as I can see on line... but I think there is more I'm not seeing. But,  in any case they're in Canada. :) We have to deal with them first.
 
885. ART. 85. DESERTION
(a) Any member of the armed forces who--
(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;
(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or
(3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another on of the armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when authorized by the United States; is guilty of desertion.
(b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom permanently is guilty of desertion.
(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj2.htm#885.%20ART.%2085.%20DESERTION

Ok, so there you go, it requires the accused to have intent, which is a mens rea word.  Interestingly, the article on AWOL does not have mens rea. 

Now has for a defence of lack of mental responsibility aka, insanity.  The Code reads as thus:
* 850a. ART. 50a. DEFENSE OF LACK OF MENTAL RESPONSIBILITY
(a) It is an affirmative defense in a trial by court-martial that, at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the accused, as a result of a sever(sic) mental disease or defect, was unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of the acts. Mental disease or defect does not otherwise constitute a defense.
(b) The accused has the burden of proving the defense of lack of mental responsibility by clear and convincing evidence.
(c) Whenever lack of mental responsibility of the accused with respect to an offense is properly at issue, the military judge, or the president of the court-martial without a military judge, shall instruct the members of the court as to the defense of lack of mental responsibility under this section and shall charge them to find the accused--
(1) guilty;
(2) not guilty; or
(3) not guilty only by reason of lack of mental responsibility.

The accused carries the burden to prove their mental defect however as with most defences of mental incapacity and/or defect if one does prove the mental defect then other factors kick in such as capacity to be further employed.  Now in this case of the alleged deserter, I doubt he's going to care if once he proves his mental defect that the military considers him unfit for duty and tosses him, but in the case of a lesser offence where the accused wants to remain in service, it could prove their undoing (but then if they really are mentally defective or diseased of the mind, they aren't going to really care.)

As for an immigration hearing, I would suspect the clause that is affording the application for refugee is the proposed death sentence, if found guilty of desertion during a declared war.   Quite the political matzo ball for the immigration tribunal to have to decide if that were the case.  To grant him his status as a refugee, would mean making a finding that the states are in a legal war and therefore he would be subjected to a harsher sentence should he be found guilty, to turn him down would mean they made a finding that there is no direct threat to his life should he be refused and returned to the US as there is no state of war. 



 
niner domestic said:
As for an immigration hearing, I would suspect the clause that is affording the application for refugee is the proposed death sentence, if found guilty of desertion during a declared war.   Quite the political matzo ball for the immigration tribunal to have to decide if that were the case.  To grant him his status as a refugee, would mean making a finding that the states are in a legal war and therefore he would be subjected to a harsher sentence should he be found guilty, to turn him down would mean they made a finding that there is no direct threat to his life should he be refused and returned to the US as there is no state of war. 

I thought we routinely handed back people who could face the death penalty we only say "do what you want just don't kill him".  I thought that the immigration hearing doesn't have to only decide if the war is legal, or not, but they have to also look at if that soldier had reasonable ground to perceive that they were going to be forced to commit illegal acts.  If they face punishment for doing the moral thing, they have a much stronger case for refugee status.

On a really funny note (please don't respond to this, but I do have to say it)  I was reading the link provided by niner and read this http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj2.htm#925. ART. 125. SODOMY  I loved that "however slight".  Only the part with an Animal is a crime here now.  Oh and on a not so funny note http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj2.htm#920. ART. 120. RAPE AND CARNAL KNOWLEDGE  "not his wife, by force and without consent"  So if you're married it is okay? (No it is not)  I think that when we look at the details I think we see some sharp differences between our two cultures.  Personally I was disturbed by some of the implications of these laws and I'll admit that I did have a moral indignant moment.

But enough about American military law, these guys are facing Canadian immigration regulations – and they’re a much harder read :)
 
Zell_Dietrich said:
Unlike Trinity and Niner all of my legal training has been exclusively in commercial law and civil law. And even this mainly focused on torts and contracts.  My exposure to immigration law comes from my socail contacts here in Toronto,  one of my friends is an immigration lawyer and a few others are refugees.  Back when I lived in Alberta I had a Serbian friend who fled to Canada, deserting his military duty, because he could not in good conscience perform his duties.  If I accept his right to come to this country and claim refugee status,  I have to accept that soldiers from other countries can do it. (And just to be extremely clear I am in NO way linking the actions of the two, I am only pointing out that we have one process for all)  Yes we'll have trials to see if they are legitimate or not but until a decision is made they get to stay here under our protection.

Zell,
Your buddy in the Serbian / FRY army was prolly not a volunteer - lots of conscripts in the past.  Also, when a country goes onto the rocks and civil war ensues, we're dealing with something a whole lot more complicated than what decided these soldiers to desert the US military.
 
Were there any cases of Canadian Army deserters going to the USA during the USA neutrality of WWI and II ?  It would provide an interesting comparison.
 
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