Trouble with the Neighbours

[Britney Spears]

Britney: No, sorry-as far as substandard performance by multinationals it goes way deeper than that. I noted with painful frequency the very negative reactions of the folks in the US HQ where I was stationed to the bumbling idleness, procrastination and inertia of ISAF VI. Being a LO for ISAF VI was kind of like having a grotesque idiot relative: you couldn't deny that you were related to them, and sometimes you felt like you had to defend them, but most of the time you just wished you had never met them. Other nations may have such stories about us: all armies havetheir  idiots (as some of the less fortunate posters on Army .ca have richly displayed) but I'll bet you not nearly as many as ABCA folks can speak of. ABCA is not just an exclusive club because of language: it is exclusive because of a cultural outlook about putting mission first and getting the job done. The US folks have a different tack from us "former Imperials" but we can all get to the same place at the same time and know we're there. I challenge you to do that with some of these multi-national horror shows.

Cheers.

Now I'm getting increasingly into WAG territory here, as my experience with European armies comes nowhere close to that of the other posters here, but I still think it's a bad idea to paint with such broad brushes. ABCA armies are used to working peace support operations in complex multinational settings. We train for it and we have a lot of institutional experience, but I almost start to think the mentality of the excusively expeditionary force is begining to color our world view and we think ops like ISAF are the be-all end-all. To use a colloquial term, maybe the Europeans don't give a rat's *** because they never train for it and (they think) it's just not their day job? Hey, we even have a word, "Dom ops" to referr excusively to homeland defence operations, but homeland defence, as oppose to fighting little bush wars on the other side of the planet, is proably something that (rightly or wrongly) is the primary focus of European armies. Most European nations still have memories of their entire country being demolished twice or 3 times in the last 100 years by invading foreign armies. I don't think most of them join the army to "see the world" or anything like that which we take for granted.

EDIT: wow, that one takes the cup for the most incoherent post ever....... I should get more sleep.....

 

[Edward Campbell]

I have less recent or useful experience than Britney Spears but I may have some advantage in hindsight.

Thirty-five years ago the United States Army (and Marine Corps) stank; both (and, to a lesser degree, the USN and USAF) were chock-a-block full of unfit, untrained, ill-led, drug addicted troops.  Racial violence was the main reason American soldiers fought.  They were, broadly speaking, useless.

Thirty-five years ago the Germans were adequately trained, just; what they lacked in training, especially at the junior levels, they made up for with an excellent, professional officer corps and a strong, all pervasive sense of national purpose: the defence of Germany against a real, present, danger.

Thirty-five years ago there were only two armies anywhere in NATO Europe (British and Canadian) ready and able to get to their battle potions and meet the expected (East German led) Warsaw Pact attack head on.  We had eight army corps; only one, 1 BR Corps, was ready and able to fight.  Three (I, II and III GE corps) were big, adequately equipped but poorly trained, one (1 NL Corps) was too small, poorly trained and too far away.  Three (1 BE and V and VII US) were perfectly useless â “ probably going to do more harm than good.

Some things have changed â “ radically.  Led by a General named Starry, amongst a small number of others, the US began, in the 70s, to pull itself up by its own bootstraps.  It was a long, slow, sometimes agonizing process.  Our American friends came to Canada and invited some of us down there to help them plan and implement a huge number of ambitious, even courageous reforms.  I saw parts of it, sometimes close up, over the years, and I read about the outcomes now, in the press and here on army.ca.

Other armies â “ like the British â “ had ups and downs but, through it all remained highly professional.

Others, like the Belgians, got no better and, maybe even deteriorated, if what I saw (briefly) in and then heard/read from Rwanda was a good example.

In my view there is nothing native to Americans, Brits and Canadians which makes them superior soldiers.  If there was then the US Army would not have crashed and burned in the '50s and '60s; great armies can â “ have â “ turned to sh!t and sh!tty armies can reform themselves and become first rate.

Just a reminder than 55, 45, 35, 25 and even 15 years ago we were, generally, looking down our noses at our American friends â “ now, I think, we see them as valued, trusted friends from whom we can learn much.  Our admiration for German officers seems to have faded - perhaps as their professionalism has faded due to lack of focus on a clear threat and mission.

 

[pbi]

He then said "OK, we start now.  RSM, get coffee for everybody."

Interesting. I had a similar experience with a SVK Bde HQ that was in our AO on OP HARMONY in 94. The job of the Bde Sgt Maj there, as far as I could see, was to be a coffee server in the HQ. I never saw an NCO do anything of any importance. I used to bring my CSM to all meetings, as an SOP. The Serbs asked me who was the guy I was always bringing. When I explained who he was, they expressed mystification at why I would bother bringing anybody who was not an officer. I explain that in my company I did not normally make too many important decisions without takling with my CSM first. They didn't get it.

Cheers.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

To use a colloquial term, maybe the Europeans don't give a rat's *** because they never train for it and (they think) it's just not their day job?

I don't think that's it.  It isn't a matter of training, its one of attitude.  As PBI and I can rant about for days, the unprofessionalism was/is rampant.  It's the lack of an operational focus, excessive individuality and an odd sense of superiority that maintains that they're different from everyone else - particularly the Americans.  Add to this an almost breathtaking timidity, micromanagement, excessive focus on rank and status, and national rivalries and you get a outrageously dysfunctional environment.

I honestly believe that these traits would exist regardless of the operational setting.  As one German officer told me, their army has changed dramatically with the end of the Cold War and the peace dividend.  Add to that the inherent "challenges" of a multinational setting and you have a recipe for (at best) inertia or (at worse) tactical and operational disaster.

One short war story to prove my point about differing attitudes.  As I alluded to earlier, I was heavily involved in the efforts to free UN hostages in Nov 04.  As part of this, I worked closely with Allied SF to develop a military option for hostage rescue.  HQ ISAF insisted on pushing the Afghans to "first row" and seriously compromised both operational security and the hostages' lives as a result.

I had to attend nightly meetings led by COS ISAF (MGen rank).  At it, we (I) presented the concept of ops for hostage rescue, all of which ended in the sudden, violent demise of the hostage-takers.  HQ ISAF was aghast and requested that the plan be "revisited" to change the focus whereby the terrorists were captured rather than killed.  They didn't like the "optics" of killing hostage-takers...  Typical European attitude.  In the end, as I said earlier, the operation was executed without ISAF involvement, much to their annoyance.

Cheers,

TR

 

[KevinB]

These are the same people who refused us permission to raid drug and weapon caches, for fear of upsetting the local warlord...

Unfortunately most simply did not give f#$k and where attempting to cruise through their tour, with as minimal riplling of the water as they believed possible.

Don't get me started on Belgian drinking 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Drinking.  Belgians.  Do tell. 

 

[KevinB]

Well lets just say there is a more than a few reasons why they shut the Belgian Mess down...

 

[Canadian Sig]

I was amazed at how much the Germans at warehouse drank. They were always walking around at night hammered and heavily armed.

 

[Britney Spears]

Maybe the Belgians are just getting back at us for Romeo Dallaire.

 

[KevinB]

Firstly I am all for "big boy" rules with drinking - hey I was in Cyprus...

BUT I have a huge problem with anyone on some sort of NTM status drinking.  I just nigling doubt about deploying out the gate with guys loaded with a round up the spout...

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Having to work with people drunk or high is not cool at all.

 

[Britney Spears]

You see what happens when transport/air movement regs are relaxed? If it wasn't for the devotion and professionalism of our MAMS/Air Movement pers. our contingent will no doubt have become havens for alchohol and drug abuse.

 

[KevinB]

You see what happens when transport/air movement regs are relaxed? If it wasn't for the devotion and professionalism of our MAMS/Air Movement pers. our contingent will no doubt have become havens for alchohol and drug abuse.

 

[Canadian Sig]

>There were no drugs in Afghanistan.  :

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Isn't AStan full of poppies?

 

[Baloo]

Pretty sure that was what the roll-eyes was for.

 

[Canadian Sig]

sorry CFL, just being facetious... not that any of the Euros smoked hash or anything.

 

[Kal]

I find that the general relaxation of lack of discipline from the europeans is in direct relation to their culture and work ethic.  While touring France and Belgium on their honeymoon, my sister and her new husband said that the european were very lax and preferred to have fun and not take so seriously their jobs and work.  Some of the shops and restaurants would close 2 hours at a time so the employees can take their lunch breaks and while working their ethic would be just to relax and have fun with what they were doing.  While this may be a positive with the euros being less stressed and enjoying life more, it certainly does not have it's place when circumstances and operation arise that require discipline and their full devotion.

 

[KevinB]

Lets not ignore our own fault and failures as well (sorry I'm planning a book deal gotta keep those quiet  )

But 99% of them where not for lack of troop drive nor command zeal to go out and monkeystomp some bad guys.

 

[pbi]

Maybe the Belgians are just getting back at us for Romeo Dallaire.

This is quite possible, since a number of the Belgiques in Camp Julien when I was on ATHENA were Paras. I had heard a number of stories about the animosity between the two contingents, but I don't know for sure as I didn't live in Kabul. Maybe somebody who was there can comment?

Cheers.