Trouble with the Neighbours

[Yeoman]

wow, hearing these stories and some of the stories I hear from the boys out there right now makes me feel almost kinda glad that I'm not out there right now. I mean I thought the MO boys I knew from roto 0 were just making up stuff to make them sound hard, but jesus.
Greg

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

  Fraid so. We provided them with hunter heaters but they could'nt be bothered to fuel them so they burned wood in them until they were un-usable. Then one evening one of our cooks glances up at the nearest tower and realizes nobody is there. Turns out that the germans tasked with guarding the Canadian annex got cold and decided to go home to their own side of the camp (leaving us totaly un-guarded). The next morning the sigs were tasked to man and clean the towers and we found piles of empty beer cans and even   a few empty scnaps (sp?) bottles. Cant say I was suprized. This is the same Germans who "warning shot" a 14 years old outside of our wire one night on roto 0.

Same as when I was there, although we had the added "benefit" of a Georgian "elite" platoon embedded with the Germans for much of the tour.

Thinking of camp security, Kabul was rocketted 41 times in the first three months of Roto 2.  More than once, rockets impacted very close to Warehouse (50 m in one case).  Never, during my entire time with the French and Germans, did we take to the bunkers or hear an alarm.  We were very lucky...

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Oh you can't leave us hanging Teddy.  We'd all love to hear about the Georgian's.

 

[paracowboy]

So are we keeping the Dutch on the "Armies I would work" with side?  

yes. But only because their women are so astoundingly hot!

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Oh you can't leave us hanging Teddy.   We'd all love to hear about the Georgian's.

Well, where to start?

ISAF is filled with "hangers on".  These are countries that supply a tiny number of soldiers in an effort to curry favour with either the US or EU.  Thus, such military luminaries as Macedonia (with their "Leopard Platoon"), Albania, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Croatia, Estonia, etc., have supplied platoons to the Kabul operation.

As part of the so-called "Election Support Force", Georgia sent in an infantry platoon to act as camp security at Warehouse.  They were there for three months and were "sponsored" and trained by Germany.  Rumour had it that the Georgian Minister of Defence personally approved the selection of the platoon's personnel.

I know that there's someone who posts on these forums who has worked closely with the Georgians and has some time for them.  I just didn't see it.  With ancient, battered AK-47s, German camoflage uniforms and a surly, lacadasical attitude, they weren't exactly effective and didn't do much to boost confidence in camp defence.

Led by a German NCO, they would watch DVDs in the guard towers and load up on items in the PX.  Vehicle searches were normally accompanied by shouting from the German "minder" as the Georgians failed to look under vehicles or ignored ID checks.  Part of their national caveats was the restriction of the platoon to the camp perimeter - they never did anything outside.

I don't have any really funny Georgian stories, because they really didn't do much - in common with the rest of what was soon dubbed the "Kalashnikov Brigade".  A great number of ISAF countries were much like the Georgians - there to hoist a flag and to be seen to be contributing.

 

[Haggis]

I know that there's someone who posts on these forums who has worked closely with the Georgians and has some time for them.  

I worked closely with the Georgians on a NATO exercise outside Tbilisi in 2002.  In fact I was RSM of a multinational infantry battalion, under a Georgian CO, made up of NATO and PfP countries, many named in TR's last post.

I never said I "had time for them" as a fighting force, but I do respect SOME of thier members for, at least, making the attempt to professionalize their army.

We'd been in country about 2 1/2 weeks.  One day the CO came up to me in the dining hall at Camp Viaziani (located next to the Vaziani DPRE camp where we did real world humanitarian medical ops during the ex.) and said he wanted to chat.  His English was actually quite good.  He started with "RSM, do you want to know why my army is so bad?" and enterd into a rant worthy of any old school RCR WO.  Pay, equipment, political interference, corruption, theft, nepotism, cronysim etc etc.  I was floored... not only by the content of his rant but that this officer had the moral courage to let it all hang out to a foriegner.  I'd love to know what happened to him.

Got some funny stories, too...

 

[DBA]

I wonder how much the makeup of these small contingents contribute to their shortcomings. I think you need a certain size of unit and autonomy to build a sense of pride in your work and a professional attitude towards a mission. A smallish group of poorly equipped troops that are reliant on others for everything and have no autonomy of action sounds tailor made to foster mediocrity and apathy.

 

[COBRA-6]

I kinda wish I didn't read this thread now... lol... I'm going over to work at KMNB in august. I hope it's not 6 months of banging my head against the wall... the guy who's over there currently said the lasse-fair attitude can be very frustrating, also mentioned some force protection "issues"... oh well, better to go in with your eyes open...

 

[Matt_Fisher]

As a caveat to what has been said regarding the Dutch...

We had one experience with the Dutch in Iraq.   1st Marine Division was retrograding into Kuwait in late Sept and our company was doing the convoy escort for the last of the division hq's elements (essentially the last Marine elements in Iraq in 2003, save an ANGLICO platoon that had been attached to the Multi-National Division).   During our retrograde march (the process was divided into 3 sticks of about 90 vehicles each) as we passed through the towns in the Babil province, the Dutch in Diwaniyah were the only forces to come out and have coordinated with us and actually provide an escort through town and have the intersections shut down so that the convoy could roll through unfettered.   Throughout the rest of the MNDs AO we had no such participation by the occupying forces.   Kudos to the Dutch for pulling an all nighter and watching out for the Marines who rolled through town into the 0Dark:Thirty Stupid Hours of the night to ensure we got through their AO ok.    

During my time in Norway in Feb/March of this year I also got to work with the Norwegians.   Despite being a conscript based force, I was really impressed with their professionalism and the pride that they took in their job.   We had a section of Norwegian engineers attached to our platoon and these guys had their s*it wired tight in regard to route, bridge, obstacle recce and clearance etc.   Even doing joint foot patrols with these guys I was impressed as they had their SOPs down (bounding across danger areas, nonverbal communications, securing an area, etc.).

I would have no qualms about working with either the Dutch or the Norwegians at anytime.    

 

[Britney Spears]

1) Generally people remember the bad stuff better than the good.

2) They've probably got stories of idiot Canadians/Americans too. See #1. People do stupid stuff, no matter the nationality. I've done stupid stuff(abeit not, to my knowledge, in front of foreign allies). I'm sure someone in another country remembers the dumb Canadian.

3) Take into account cultural differences. European armies, based around a countinental system of recruiting, retention, etc, are focused differently than US/UK/CDN armies. e.g. In Europe, "going overseas" is generally not the principle goal of the army. Why would irt be, when most of them share land borders with potential enemies! Maybe the "overseas" stuff sometimes has to take the backbench.

Now having said that, most of the stories related above have more to do with systematic leadership/organizational issues than any individual failing. So I think in that regard, we're still ahead of the game.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Brit:

You have a point...However:

Not to be overly negative, but (likely in common with PBI) I have very little good to say about the two HQs I worked with and for in Afghanistan - representing (at the brigade level) 17 countries in total.  People narrowly avoided being killed on a number of occasions through sheer laziness and incompetence.  The unprofessional attitude goes far beyond having a different operational focus and is rampant throughout NATO.  The only thing worse I can think of is the UN.

I worked with a number of outstanding individuals from a variety of countries.  I also believe that some nations (including the French, believe it or not) were severely handicapped by working in a multinational environment, as were we.  I too have had few bad experiences with the Nordic nations (the Swedes were outstanding as liaison staff and the Norwegians had an unwieldy battle group that was saddled with the Belgians and Hungarians) and (as I said) had a lot of time for the Dutch helicopter guys.

We have a number of benefits in that we're a professional Army that is (still) part of the most exclusive alliance in the world - ABCA.  We benefit from a common language with the Americans, Brits, Aussies and Kiwis, common operating procedures, a 90 year history of working together and a wide variety of formal agreements covering everything from industrial cooperation to intelligence sharing. We ARE ahead of the game with leadership and organization as a result.

End of rant...

 

[KevinB]

Credit where credit is due

The DUTCH APACHE's where aggressive - I mean spec fire (off thermal signature) a good couple hundred metres from CJ.
The OP NCO saw brass falling...


I will give the Belgians an A for effort -- patrol leaving CJ (their readiness states where similar to B Coy [I hear collective groans  ] and they where reading when they fired the .50.  Immediately they get a light on the are beside the camp and yell "Contact"...

Nice try - did not work - but nice anyway  :



None of the Euro armies want to work in the dark cause none of them have NV, IR lasers for their weapons, nor are the majority of their vehicle NV capable.  The Hungarians that went and apparently blew their load on PVS-14/MNVG's for the Para-Commando Regt did not get an weapon mounted LAD - so while they can see in the dark they can hit shit.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

When you say Euro are you including the Brits in that?

 

[KevinB]

No just the spineless continentals

 

[Infanteer]

What is even more disparaging is that tiny Netherlands has Apaches and Leo2s....  :-\

 

[a_majoor]

None of the Euro armies want to work in the dark cause none of them have NV, IR lasers for their weapons, nor are the majority of their vehicle NV capable.  The Hungarians that went and apparently blew their load on PVS-14/MNVG's for the Para-Commando Regt did not get an weapon mounted LAD - so while they can see in the dark they can hit crap.

I find that astonishing, I can remember when WE didn't have NVGs or other Gucci kit, and still slipped out after dark using the "Mk 1 Eyeball". Simple techniques were taught to observe more effectively in the dark, and shooting techniques like "double tap" and blinking in synchronization with firing (to avoid seeing the muzzle flash and ruining your night vision) were also emphasised.

Spending most of my time on ROTO in Banja Luka and VK I managed to avoid most of the nonsense, although watching the Carabirini at the Banja Luka clearing bay was often amusing (in that "oh my God" sort of way....). Weirdly, the weapons incidents in camp were Canadian.....

 

[Poppa]

Weirdly, the weapons incidents in camp were Canadian.....

You can't blame them...things happen when drunk :blotto:

 

[pbi]

1) Generally people remember the bad stuff better than the good.

2) They've probably got stories of idiot Canadians/Americans too. See #1. People do stupid stuff, no matter the nationality. I've done stupid stuff(abeit not, to my knowledge, in front of foreign allies). I'm sure someone in another country remembers the dumb Canadian.

3) Take into account cultural differences. European armies, based around a countinental system of recruiting, retention, etc, are focused differently than US/UK/CDN armies. e.g. In Europe, "going overseas" is generally not the principle goal of the army. Why would irt be, when most of them share land borders with potential enemies! Maybe the "overseas" stuff sometimes has to take the backbench.

Now having said that, most of the stories related above have more to do with systematic leadership/organizational issues than any individual failing. So I think in that regard, we're still ahead of the game.

Britney: No, sorry-as far as substandard performance by multinationals it goes way deeper than that. I noted with painful frequency the very negative reactions of the folks in the US HQ where I was stationed to the bumbling idleness, procrastination and inertia of ISAF VI. Being a LO for ISAF VI was kind of like having a grotesque idiot relative: you couldn't deny that you were related to them, and sometimes you felt like you had to defend them, but most of the time you just wished you had never met them. Other nations may have such stories about us: all armies havetheir  idiots (as some of the less fortunate posters on Army .ca have richly displayed) but I'll bet you not nearly as many as ABCA folks can speak of. ABCA is not just an exclusive club because of language: it is exclusive because of a cultural outlook about putting mission first and getting the job done. The US folks have a different tack from us "former Imperials" but we can all get to the same place at the same time and know we're there. I challenge you to do that with some of these multi-national horror shows.

Cheers.

 

[Slim]

Reading all of the above posts I'm suddenly very glad I got out when i did.

Slim

 

[Haggis]

The majority of "armies of questionable quality" mentioned in these posts have one thing in common.  They all lack a professional NCO Corps akin to that of the ABCA forces.  Even some NATO arimes cannot grasp the role of professional NCOs.

During the first O group of our Georgian based NATO EX, I was seated at the table with the remainder of the command cell (right next to my Georgain CO).  The DCO, a Greek LCol, took stock of those assembled.  He then said "OK, we start now.  RSM, get coffee for everybody."