Transgender in the CF (merged)

[Gunshark]

Bottom line is, you want to be in the army, so you're going to go through with it. And you will deal with whatever circumstances come your way. There's no exact way to predict what's going to happen. Hopefully you'll be lucky to meet good people along the way. If you meet some jerks, there should still be enough good people around you to make it worth it. Just as others have said, don't hide anything, don't stand out, do your work, take care of buddy, and you should be treated the same as the next guy.

 

[cupper]

I'm confused even having reread the various posts, so perhaps ShoddyGunner could clarify.

Are you saying you are a genetic male identifying as female and have transitioned to female, or are you saying you are a genetic female identifying as male and have transitioned to male?

It's not entirely clear from what I am reading.

 

[ShoddyGunner]

The latter, Cupper, though I've finished transitioning.

Also, all the replies on my initial post have been totally helpful and alleviated all my concerns, though I mostly made the thread so I could alleviate my family's concerns...Hopefully it will do that, too.

It sounds like it's basically what I figured - keep my head down, help my buddies, and give my course staff a heads-up and I should be good. I have no trouble dealing with jerks - they're not unique to the armed forces, but I did want some kind of topographical map of what I'm getting into so I can plan accordingly.

Thanks folks!

 

[mariomike]

Good luck to you, ShoddyGunner.

Incidentally, for my own education, I was reading this. What do you think of it? Does it make sense to you?

I am posting it here in case anyone is interested,

Tips for Allies of Transgender People
http://www.glaad.org/transgender/allies

"The following are tips that can be used as you move toward becoming a better ally to transgender people. Of course, this list is not exhaustive and cannot include all the "right" things to do or say - because often there is no one "right" answer to every situation you might encounter.

When you become an ally of transgender people, your actions will help change the culture, making society a better, safer place for transgender people - and for all people (trans or not) who do not conform to gender expectations."

 

[vonGarvin]

The latter, Cupper, though I've finished transitioning.

Your surgery may be complete, but your gender hasn't changed.  I'm not a jerk, I just acknowledge the biological reality that humans, though rather advanced, cannot change their gender.

I'll go and ban my intolerant self now.

 

[PuckChaser]

Off a previous post, there was no surgery completed so waist down appears as female. That's what's confusing about the terminology, as far as I'm concerned, a transition isn't complete until SRS makes you completely appear as your identified gender. Then there should be no issues with anyone, as they wouldn't know you were ever another gender unless you told them.

 

[Old Sweat]

As an aside, one of my brother's grandkids is going through the transition. It is causing a bit of family turmoil but the individual appears to be better adjusted and is relaxed perhaps for the first time we can recall. Some of the members of family not so much.

We old folks probably can't comprehend the accepting attitude of the peers, and this should also apply at St Jean.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Your surgery may be complete, but your gender hasn't changed.  I'm not a jerk, I just acknowledge the biological reality that humans, though rather advanced, cannot change their gender.

I'll go and ban my intolerant self now.

Also stop whitesplaing and commiting Viking cultural appropriation.  ;D

Off a previous post, there was no surgery completed so waist down appears as female. That's what's confusing about the terminology,

Yea I'm in the same boat.  I'm utterly confused. 

 

[PMedMoe]

Off a previous post, there was no surgery completed so waist down appears as female. That's what's confusing about the terminology, as far as I'm concerned, a transition isn't complete until SRS makes you completely appear as your identified gender. Then there should be no issues with anyone, as they wouldn't know you were ever another gender unless you told them.

This is the point I was trying to make.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Let's stop dancing around the "real" question; do you have a penis? If so, you are male, IMHO.

Not sure we were dancing around that question. I do not, but I'm glad not everyone sees the world as you do. Also glad you do see the world as you do because our differences drive us to greatness.

So, there is the bottom line.  Identifies as a male, but hasn't completed the whole change.  Male top half, female bottom half.

Not sure how that equals 'transition complete'. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Eye In The Sky]
So, there is the bottom line.  Identifies as a male, but hasn't completed the whole change.  Male top half, female bottom half.

Not sure how that equals 'transition complete'.
[/quote]

Yea I'm not sure how that's complete either.

I can't help but find it a bit humorous in our military. In my experience the chain of command very often shits kittens if males and females share the same sleeping space. It does happen where they share sleeping quarters sometimes but other times they'll go to stupid lengths to separate males and females.  Segregated rooms, different floors of buildings, different buildings.  I've been woken up at 2am in the field because someone in the CoC freaked out when they heard males and females were sharing the same crew tents so everyone had to move around. Another time they were cramming 3 males into a crew tent and females had their own crew tents to themselves.

Now the CoC can deal with soldiers who are physically male but demand to use female sleeping quarters and showers because they decided they're women.

At least we avoided the headache of separate fitness standards with the FORCE test.

 

[PuckChaser]

Must be a combat arms thing. Never had an issue with mixed quarters in the field, but Sigs runs in smaller dets without the luxury of multiple tents at times.

 

[Lumber]

Now the CoC can deal with soldiers who are physically male but demand to use female sleeping quarters and showers because they decided they're women.

This is the part everyone is having trouble wrapping their heads around and failing to understand; and it's critical. These people didn't "decide" to be male/female. These people, with every fiber of their being, feel and believe that they are the gender that is opposite to what they are born with.

Do you think homosexuals "decided" to be gay?

 

[PuckChaser]

Likely he did not intend to use decide in that sense. That being said, they still have a decision to make about SRS, or to live in the body they currently have. That's where the grey area is.

I'll also note the OP hasn't come back to clarify the questions asked here, despite being active elsewhere on the site.

 

[Jarnhamar]

This is the part everyone is having trouble wrapping their heads around and failing to understand; and it's critical. These people didn't "decide" to be male/female. These people, with every fiber of their being, feel and believe that they are the gender that is opposite to what they are born with.

I'm certain some do. I'm also certain some treat it like a fad or for attention. There are examples of people deciding they are the opposite gender then deciding they aren't anymore and 'going back'.

Is there a limit to how much we accommodate though? Can I decide I'm animal-spirited and get special accommodations because if it? That's not a stupid question either because there are hundreds, if not thousands of people out there who claim to be "otherkin" ie animals, plants, fictional characters, monsters, dragons. If they believe with every fiber of their being it's true should we accept that they are a red dragon?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Fuck ya!  :blotto:  Who doesn't like dragons? 

 

[PMedMoe]

Moot point...the CAF doesn't recruit animals (real or fictional)...

However, if one believed one was a horse and wanted to join the Strathconas, they'd better be able to perform as a horse...

 

[Lumber]

I'm certain some do. I'm also certain some treat it like a fad or for attention. There are examples of people deciding they are the opposite gender then deciding
Is there a limit to how much we accommodate though? Can I decide I'm animal-spirited and get special accommodations because if it? That's not a stupid question either because there are hundreds, if not thousands of people out there who claim to be "otherkin" ie animals, plants, fictional characters, monsters, dragons. If they believe with every fiber of their being it's true should we accept that they are a red dragon?

Absolutely there is (a limit). We've already established it. In the military, we preach and practice universality of service. Everyone has to be able to do a minimum set of tasks, and by and large we treat everone the same. We do not make accomodations for anyone.... with one exception. The only time we discriminate is with regard to gender. But even then, only in specific circumstances: dress, bunking and ablutions. This is the limit that has been set; we will accomdate your status (being a woman) in these areas, but no other. Big or tall, fat or skinny, Liberal or Conservative, Muslim or Atheist, east-asian or first nation, we expect everyone to do the same thing; but if you're female, we expect you dress differently, bathe out of sight and sleep somewhere else!

Honestly, if we did away with this, and just had everyone sh*tting, shaving and sleeping togther, then it wouldn't matter if you were transgender, bigender, androgynous or dragonkin!

 

[Lumber]

I'm certain some do. I'm also certain some treat it like a fad or for attention. There are examples of people deciding they are the opposite gender then deciding they aren't anymore and 'going back'.

Just because some might abuse the system, doesn't mean we should abandon the system and those that rely on it.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I'm certain some do. I'm also certain some treat it like a fad or for attention. There are examples of people deciding they are the opposite gender then deciding they aren't anymore and 'going back'.

Is there a limit to how much we accommodate though? Can I decide I'm animal-spirited and get special accommodations because if it? That's not a stupid question either because there are hundreds, if not thousands of people out there who claim to be "otherkin" ie animals, plants, fictional characters, monsters, dragons. If they believe with every fiber of their being it's true should we accept that they are a red dragon?

Horseshit!  Your argument has nothing whatsoever to do with a legitimate debate about transgendered persons and the CF.  If there are individuals out there who so vehemently insist that they are something other than the species "Homo sapiens" that they want to be accommodated in their belief, the likelihood that they would be enrolled is slim;  the CF only enrols human beings (them being the only species currently acceptable - all else is property).  Likewise for individuals already serving.  The reason - because they are batshit crazy and, if legitimate in their assertion, should be evaluated for medical fitness to serve.  If their proclamation to be "otherkin" is simply "attention seeking" then there are avenues to deal with the conduct of individuals who become an administrative burden due to their inability to adjust to service life.  This is nothing new.  There have always been serving soldiers, sailors and the other ones who had odd personal behaviour beliefs and quirks, but as long as it didn't interfere with routine, it can be overlooked.

As to the limits of accommodation, what do current CF directions say?  This is not a new phenomenon, so there must be some guidance already published.  It would be interesting to see what (if anything) came from previous human rights tribunal recommendations that the CF develop specific policy guidelines about how they would accommodate transgendered persons.  As those of us no longer serving do not have access to a full range of DND's policy documents, I was only able to find the titles of two documents that may hold some of the answers.

CANFORGEN 031/12 - Management of CF Transsexual Members (mentioned in an issue of The Maple Leaf)

CF Military Personnel Instruction 01/11 (mentioned on this DND page about Internal Review of Workplace Policies, Programs and Leadership Engagement)

I haven't been able to find the text of these documents open-source on the net.