Transgender in the CF (merged)

[Jarnhamar]

Clearly you missed the part where everyone has to do the same tasks to the same standard.

Sorry that was shitty wording on my part.  What I mean is females are given a lower physical threshold for competitive scoring on the DFIT.ca scale.

 

[Andraste]

Hi Jarnhamar,

No problems with answering any questions about being trans. 

In my own personal circumstances, even thought I am legally considered female, I have not sought HRT and as such my physiology is male.  If I had sought HRT, the first step is androgen (testosterone) blockers which has the net effect of reducing muscle mass and strenght (among other physiologically changes).  It is testosterone which gives men their strength and muscle mass.  Once testosterone levels drop to within normal range for women (yes women have levels of testosterone in their bodies), estrogen is then introduced into the mix (this is sometimes done simultaneously) which then redistributes body weight in a more feminine way (think to the hips and bust area).  As naturally occurring estrogen level increase to within normal range of a woman (yes, men have estrogen in their bodies . . . we all start out female at conception BTW), strength then drops to become more in line with the strength and muscle mass of a woman.

As I still have male androgen levels particular to my age, I would be expected to attain the standard for a male of my age bracket.  As such, I would not be gaining an advantage (PER wise) over genetic women of my age bracket.  Had I chosen HRT my strength would be akin to a woman of my age bracket so we would be on equal footing when it came to fitness testing and subsequent PER points.

Hope this answers your question.

Cheers

 

[Pieman]

Legally I am a woman but physiologically and genetically I am a man . . . confused yet?

...Kinda, yes I don't mean this question as anything disrespectful, I'm just curious. I'm wondering how one can identify themselves as a women, being physically a man, is still attracted to a woman? It seems to defeat the purpose Do you think the hormonal treatments would effect your attraction levels towards males? Does it in other trans who go through the process?

I also have to wonder that since sexuality is dominantly meant for procreation, so what is the evolutionary benefit for those who are along a spectrum of that? (I don't expect anyone here would know that either)

I'm reminded of a sci-fi writer Ian M. Banks, who proposed that humans in the future would change genders and body types at will in various stages of life. Getting bored? Become a female for a while, then switch back. Or become both. Society in the future is going to be all kind of confusing if this comes about.

 

[PuckChaser]

There is no evolutionary benefit, its a net loss. That's why some believe it is either an evolutionary abnormality in the genes that creates transgender/homosexual individuals, or a product of unknown socio-economic factors as a child.

It would be a very interesting study, but socially suicide to suggest figuring out why humans have evolved/learned to go against the natural urge to procreate.

 

[Pieman]

There is no evolutionary benefit, its a net loss. That's why some believe it is either an evolutionary abnormality in the genes that creates transgender/homosexual individuals, or a product of unknown socio-economic factors as a child.

It has been shown that homosexuality in a certain species of monkeys acts as a social way to de-stress their tribe and create bonds. Basically a way to keep them from turning on each other in hard times. That would account for homosexuality being a evolutionary advantage in certain situations.

However, I don't think that is the same as say a male monkey identifying itself as a different sex. It doesn't seem to fit anywhere when you look at it from this point of view.

 

[Andraste]

...Kinda, yes I don't mean this question as anything disrespectful, I'm just curious. I'm wondering how one can identify themselves as a women, being physically a man, is still attracted to a woman? It seems to defeat the purpose Do you think the hormonal treatments would effect your attraction levels towards males? Does it in other trans who go through the process?

Hello,

No disrespect taken.  This is standard misconception that gender identity is the same as sexual orientation.  Specifically, if you are a trans-woman (a man who lives as a woman) then you must like men.  The two are not linked on any level.  Yes, it is plausible that a trans-woman may have liked men before transitions or had been bi-sexual and would go on to express interest in men following transition. However, if the trans-woman liked women prior to transition (as in my case), no amount of hormone replacement therapy is going to make her like men following transition.  I have a friend who transitioned male to female and went the whole distance (surgery and HRT), she still likes women and still married to her wife. 

There is no theory about why people are transgender as a theory implies a body of researched evidence to support the position.  There is however a working hypothesis (not proven in science . . . yet) which may explain.  So buckle in an follow along  :

When we are conceived in the womb, our sex is determined at the DNA level.  You are either XY (male) or XX (female). However, we all develop female up to the eighth week of gestation when the hormone wash triggers primary and secondary sex characteristics.  In males a biochemical know as TDT supresses the naturally occurring estrogen (inherited from your mother's X gene) and turns on your testosterone (inherited from your father's Y gene).  This causes changes to the body structure at the biochemical level and sends you down the road to manhood.  This biochemical wash also causes changes to your developing brain in that certain structures are more affected in males than females (and vice versa for estrogen on female developing fetuses).  Here is where the hypothesis kicks in.  It is biochemically possible that the TDT does not turn on in the eighth week but may straggle along until the ninth.  This allows for the naturally occurring estrogen to affect brain development more akin (not exactly) to a female wired brain.  Then along comes TDT which then locks the body into male development . . . end result . . . girl brain in a boy body.  Now it is not that simplified and as I stated it is only a hypothesis so take it for what is worth. 

My point being that for some reason, I may have a man's body (determined by genetics) but I don't identify as a man as I know in my core, I was meant to be a woman.  I hope this provides some clarity . . . if not, let me know and I will try to explain a bit more as I am all about educating.

There is no evolutionary benefit, its a net loss. That's why some believe it is either an evolutionary abnormality in the genes that creates transgender/homosexual individuals, or a product of unknown socio-economic factors as a child.

Hello,

I do take task with this line of research and reasoning . . . I do not see myself as "abnormal or providing a net loss to society".  If that was not the intent of your statement then I apologize for getting terse but I get this crap handed to me on a daily basis. The literature you are citing is old evolutionary theorists "clap trap" touted as a means to posit that transgender folk are abnormal and against nature which feeds nicely into transphobic fears.

Cheers

 

[Jarnhamar]

Thanks for the thoughtful response to my question Andraste. I agree with you 100%, transwomen who haven't undergone surgery should be treated as male in so far as fitness and incentives go. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

She does have a point.....

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-36085314

 

[brihard]

And Andraste killed it. That's one of the most succinct and informative posts I've seen on any subject on this board in quite some time. Nicely done!

 

[Pieman]

No disrespect taken.  This is standard misconception that gender identity is the same as sexual orientation.....

Thank you for your post. You certainly know your stuff! I have to admit I am going to have to think through the idea some more.

The biological theory for the biochemical reaction at the 8 week mark is certainly interesting. If true, there may be a possible intervention during the 8 week mark to ensure that the proper amount of TDT shows up when it is supposed to potentially eliminating the chance for a girl-brain in a boy-body. All done with my magical sci-fi medical imagination, but it's hard to say it's impossible to do if there is a physical cause/effect. Acceptance of others is great! Perhaps we could also be focusing on prevention, if it was possible? Just a thought.

 

[AbdullahD]

Thank you for your post. You certainly know your stuff! I have to admit I am going to have to think through the idea some more.

The biological theory for the biochemical reaction at the 8 week mark is certainly interesting. If true, there may be a possible intervention during the 8 week mark to ensure that the proper amount of TDT shows up when it is supposed to potentially eliminating the chance for a girl-brain in a boy-body. All done with my magical sci-fi medical imagination, but it's hard to say it's impossible to do if there is a physical cause/effect. Acceptance of others is great! Perhaps we could also be focusing on prevention, if it was possible? Just a thought.

But is prevention a cure? Is this a disease that needs to be prevented?

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading, this thread. but... i have to take bones with this just a little.

How do we know that by doing this, we would be doing the right thing? Is it not up to mankind to get past these social and cultural stigmas that make the way a person is wired a bad thing?

The vast majority of people are going to be straight and either male or female, but I find some beauty in deviance. We have the technology and it is getting better to give people the option to change, IF they want to. But what if some people would be happy living as X in a Y body? what right do we have to remove that option? shouldnt we just remove our prejudices....

I know this has been covered.... but i wanted to reiterate.

Abdullah

p.s after posting i realized they could just do the change  themselves... but still i think my post stands.

 

[Pieman]

How do we know that by doing this, we would be doing the right thing? Is it not up to mankind to get past these social and cultural stigmas that make the way a person is wired a bad thing?

I see your point. Let's suppose we were able to intervene and prevent it from happening. I believe that as a parent I would want to give the child the best shot possible. I can't imagine the complications and emotional distress (socially accepted or not) presents to a person going through such an identity crisis. Life is tough enough.  So in all honesty, I would employ that intervention without hesitation. I personally don't buy into accepting 'fate' when you actually have the ability to control something.

The vast majority of people are going to be straight and either male or female, but I find some beauty in deviance. We have the technology and it is getting better to give people the option to change, IF they want to. But what if some people would be happy living as X in a Y body? what right do we have to remove that option? shouldnt we just remove our prejudices....

I think you are correct on some levels in that diversity within a population is a good thing. However,  certain attributes are going to represent some very serious disadvantages and challenges that would otherwise not be there. So, I think if it is an option then it really is the responsible thing to give someone the best chance for success as possible....right now it's not actually an option, so social acceptance is the best approach for sure.

 

[Pusser]

Thanks for the thoughtful response to my question Andraste. I agree with you 100%, transwomen who haven't undergone surgery should be treated as male in so far as fitness and incentives go.

However, will they be?  Is there a "transgender" box on the form to tick?  If a transgender person identifies themselves on the form as female (which the system says they should) and their pers file says they're female (which it legally does), how then can their results be recorded as anything, but those of a woman, notwithstanding that they used a male body to achieve them?  In other words, I don't think our fitness evaluation system has evolved to the point of being able to score transgender personnel according to their physiology, when most other personnel records say something different.

I don't think it's a huge problem.  I don't think that having the very few number of transgender personnel in the CF possibly getting a slightly higher or lower PER score based on their FORCE results is of great concern.  Will FORCE results really differentiate between who gets promoted and who doesn't in the greater scheme of things?

Having said all of this, I am actually fundamentally opposed to higher PER points for the FORCE test, but that's a subject for another discussion.

 

[Lumber]

She does have a point.....

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-36085314

She doesn't have a point at all, because she clearly doesn't understand the argument.

When someone puts on a pirate outfit, they are only pretending to be a pirate. When a Barry Humphries dresses up as Dame Edna, he is only pretending to be a woman.

The fact is, though, that these people are NOT just pretending. They are people who are undergoing a real, observable (anecdotally, albeit) dysphoria.

The woman in the article seems to think that all transgendered people are just cross-dressers, who believe that the "clothes makes the man," as it were.  Her argument is moot because she doesn't understand the issue at all.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

According to studies [quick google before I posted that] around 20% of men cross dress........now I couldn't find a number for those who self-identify as women, but I'd be shocked if it were more then a few percent.    Therefore, to quote you...............'pretending"......

 

[Lumber]

According to studies [quick google before I posted that] around 20% of men cross dress........now I couldn't find a number for those who self-identify as women, but I'd be shocked if it were more then a few percent.    Therefore, to quote you...............'pretending"......

My point is that the people who want to be able to use the woman's bathroom (or vice-versa) are those that genuinely self-identify as a woman (and vice versa), not men, who think they are men (and vice versa) but are simply wearing woman's clothing.

What is women's clothing anyways? I see lots of women wearing jeans and t-shirts, it doesn't make them men.

 

[Jarnhamar]

How do we know that by doing this, we would be doing the right thing? Is it not up to mankind to get past these social and cultural stigmas that make the way a person is wired a bad thing?

Like a parent taking issue with their child choosing a different religion or no religion at all right?

However, will they be?  Is there a "transgender" box on the form to tick?  If a transgender person identifies themselves on the form as female (which the system says they should) and their pers file says they're female (which it legally does), how then can their results be recorded as anything, but those of a woman, notwithstanding that they used a male body to achieve them?  In other words, I don't think our fitness evaluation system has evolved to the point of being able to score transgender personnel according to their physiology, when most other personnel records say something different.

I don't think it's a huge problem.  I don't think that having the very few number of transgender personnel in the CF possibly getting a slightly higher or lower PER score based on their FORCE results is of great concern.  Will FORCE results really differentiate between who gets promoted and who doesn't in the greater scheme of things?

Having said all of this, I am actually fundamentally opposed to higher PER points for the FORCE test, but that's a subject for another discussion.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
The CAF clearly believes men are more physically capable then women. I think the minute a members fitness becomes a PER/promotion/money in their pocket issue the CAF will need to address transgender members and the male/female fitness scale discrepancies.

The fact is, though, that these people are NOT just pretending. They are people who are undergoing a real, observable (anecdotally, albeit) dysphoria.

I partially disagree. While some legitimately have their wires crossed (for lack of a better term, not trying to insult) and can't help but feel that way we have to accept that some just choose to or just want to.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

My point is that the people who want to be able to use the woman's bathroom (or vice-versa) are those that genuinely self-identify as a woman (and vice versa), . 

You sure don't know a lot of the men I've spent the last 27 years working with...........which of course if you're not in this field is a good thing. 
This whole thing is akin to an open invitation at a donut factory for Homer Simpson.

 

[Lumber]

You sure don't know a lot of the men I've spent the last 27 years working with...........which of course if you're not in this field is a good thing. 
This whole thing is akin to an open invitation at a donut factory for Homer Simpson.

No snarkiness, just honest questions:

1. I'm not sure which field you're referring to, could you please elaborate?

2. And do you mean to imply that, with these knew regulations, a significant number of men are going to start wearing women's clothing just so they can claim that they identify as women, all with the goal of being able to go into the women's bathrooms?

 

[AbdullahD]

I see your point. Let's suppose we were able to intervene and prevent it from happening. I believe that as a parent I would want to give the child the best shot possible. I can't imagine the complications and emotional distress (socially accepted or not) presents to a person going through such an identity crisis. Life is tough enough.  So in all honesty, I would employ that intervention without hesitation. I personally don't buy into accepting 'fate' when you actually have the ability to control something.

I think you are correct on some levels in that diversity within a population is a good thing. However,  certain attributes are going to represent some very serious disadvantages and challenges that would otherwise not be there. So, I think if it is an option then it really is the responsible thing to give someone the best chance for success as possible....right now it's not actually an option, so social acceptance is the best approach for sure.

I agree to an extent. To be honest, If I knew my child would have this issue and I could correct it..I probably would. Guess I am a hypocrite.

Now back to the point, lets say we both do it and hundred or thousands of other do it as well. That doesnt mean this issue dissappears, it would most likely be listed as an elective process/surgery and as always some parents would elect not to do it. Thus in reality giving the children a double disadvantage if the current culture doesnt change, being;
1-Have the wiring of A in a B body and
2-The stigma of having parents who didnt "correct" this issue.

Now I am not a fate-ist or whatever they are called, I do believe that people should do everything in their power to enhance or increase their comfort and happiness in life. But some things just happen. In an ideal world, no one would ostracize a person for how they were born. Reality though is a tough thing sometimes as the rates of suicide and depression show in the trans community amongst others, it is hard to cope.

And who are we to decide what would make a person happy, I am as a straight heterosexual non trans male deciding what a "xyz" person would be happy with? Wasn't it just a few short years ago the fight for homosexuality was being fought? Wasn't the cliche position that all the homosexual people would be happy as a straight person and this was just a phase? We as a society and a culture have been evolving past this and instead of thinking Transgender people need to be cured or fixed, before they express a desire to do so we should try to accept them. Because lets face it, maybe some people are happier living as X in a Y body (albeit most evidence shows the opposite).

So we do have the medical technology to halfways correct the issue in this day and age, and by god we have the brains so lets fight for social acceptance and when this other technology becomes available we can revisit this talk. I am not saying this is the right choice, I am just arguing for it. If anything see this position of mine as an arguement for all minorities to get sufficient social and emotional support so that the depression and suicide rates go to 0.

Life is tough, agreed. But lets develop proper thought processes so our kids can cope with emotional trauma. We all face trials in life, we cant protect our kids from all of them... sorry I maybe lost the point lol

A meandering
Abdullah

p.s Jarnhammer I saw your post and feel I have adequately addressed it in the other thread regarding people who leave Islam. Furthermore I dont wish to derail this thread, so thats why I didnt respond.