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Tory minority in jeopardy as opposition talks coalition. Will there be another election?

While I do understand your point about can/will can't/won't and do things/get things done I would like to point out that the Tories did try to do things - RIFF min withdraw reduction,  funding cuts,  removing right to strike for civil servants etc....  They tried and they would have failed. 
What they "tried" to do was to force the opposition's hand prematurely............

And if the big three go down,  there will be job losses and if people are unemployed how will they buy cars?  If they're not buying why build them? 

If Canada throws a bunch of cash into the "save detroit fund" and our freinds to the south throw in proportionately less or no money at all - We've goofed.
Huge investment for no possible return. Harper's "wait and see" was and is the only responsible move.

 
cheeky_monkey said:
That looks like a 2005 Veterans pin on Jackie's coat...

Indeed it is. Good eye on you. Perhaps the RSM should now tell Jack that he is out of dress & about 3.5 years behind the times?
 
Flip said:
What they "tried" to do was to force the opposition's hand prematurely............

If Canada throws a bunch of cash into the "save detroit fund" and our freinds to the south throw in proportionately less or no money at all - We've goofed.
Huge investment for no possible return. Harper's "wait and see" was and is the only responsible move.

OR ... here's a thought ---

Perhpas, instead of doling out more taxpayer's money t them ...

The big three should ask for a loan from Mr Iacocca? Or even any of their currently high-priced stuffy little CEOs with homes on every coast? Or even ask their "union" employees to take a pay cut down down to a mere $66.00 per hour vice the $67 they're getting now.

Crises averted. Problem in auto-sector solved.


Nah - it'll never happen ... they always want someone else (ie the government) up to ante up rather than bite the bullet themselves and do what they have to do to save their own butts.
 
That looks like a 2005 Veterans pin on Jackie's coat...

Who's jacket did he boost, and has he gone through the pockets yet?  ;D
 
Rodahn said:
Actually Dion was elected, as were Layton and Duccepe, now if it were May on the other hand. What people seem to forget is that the PM's office is filled by the leader of the party with the most seats in Parliament (for the most part). The Canadian system does not elect a PM.

I must admit though, that there is a tendency for people to vote along partisan lines.

I accept that all MPs were elected. What I meant was an interim Liberal leader... one who wasn't elected to the office. I don't think the public would stand for a PM who has not faced election by the party or by the public.
 
Flip said:
Who's jacket did he boost, and has he gone through the pockets yet?  ;D

He obviously boosted it from somewhere though ...

Not a streak of red (or flaming orange for that matter) in it anywhere .. it's NOT his!!
 
Zell_Dietrich said:
I don't remember to many conservatives complaining about that when they used the bloc to get their previous budgets through.  (with a little extra for Quebec of course) Nor did I hear them complain about regionalism when people from the west started voting for them because "the west needs a strong voice".   

In fact the Conservatives tried to do everything  this government ... err collation ... is planning to do. The only difference is that the collation is better at it.  I stumbled on collation because in fact the collation is now the majority force in Parliament.  This force should be allowed to take over the ministry positions and be allowed to actually get things done - because they can and the tories can't.

Do you seriously equate the systematic federal neglect of Western Canada for nearly a century, and the desire for a voice, to the systemic federal ass kissing, since Confederation, of Quebec, with essentially a third of the voice of the entire nation?
 
Zell_Dietrich said:
In fact the Conservatives tried to do everything  this government ... err collation ... is planning to do. The only difference is that the collation is better at it.  I stumbled on collation because in fact the collation is now the majority force in Parliament.  This force should be allowed to take over the ministry positions and be allowed to actually get things done - because they can and the tories can't.

Sorry for being a nitpicker, but its "coalition" not "collation."
 
If the junior jackasses in the Liberal Party of Canada promoting the cabal coalition can get their heads out of their arses for a minute they might open their eyes and read some good advice from one of the few respectable Liberals left. It is reproduced here under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail web site:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081205.wcomanley06/BNStory/specialComment
The first Liberal step: Replace Dion

JOHN MANLEY

From Saturday's Globe and Mail
December 5, 2008 at 8:00 PM EST

Now that the Governor-General has accepted Stephen Harper's request for a prorogation of Parliament until Jan. 26, there is time for everyone to take a breath and think through what just happened and what happens next. As a Liberal, I believe the first step for my party is to replace Stéphane Dion as leader with someone whose first job is to rebuild the Liberal Party, rather than leading a coalition with the NDP.

The world is in the midst of a financial crisis and an economic downturn that have been continually surprising observers since the first signs of difficulty began to emerge in the spring of 2007. Unlike previous slowdowns, this one is accompanied by a seizure of credit markets, a meltdown in the stock markets, falling real-estate values, challenged pension funds and a contagion that is infecting financial institutions big and small the world over. So far, Canada has mostly avoided direct hits, but we are right next to the battlefield and shrapnel is flying everywhere. We cannot assume we will somehow be spared.
Canadians have every right to expect that the politicians they elected so recently would be entirely focused on the issues threatening our economic security and well-being. Instead, they have been subjected to a sordid display of arrogance, hyperbole and incompetence that can only make voters wish a pox on all their houses.

This is too serious a time for games. Our political class was given its marching orders on election night in terms that everyone seemed to understand. The Conservatives were given the privilege of continuing in government but on condition they seek the support of members of other parties. The voters chose not to give them a majority, and the strong mandate that goes with it. The Liberals, NDP and Bloc Québécois were given the privilege of representing their electors by holding the government to account in Parliament and working to improve legislation that is proposed.

Last week's fiscal update showed the Conservatives had not been listening on election night. Oh, there had been promises that they would engage Parliament in a more constructive and less partisan way, and the Prime Minister looked statesmanlike at the G20 summit in Washington. But in the fiscal update, they abandoned all pretext of multi-partisanship and co-operation and struck at their opponents, leaving them no choice but to vote them down.

Whether this was stupidity, arrogance or an intentional tactic, I cannot say. But to have created a totally avoidable political crisis when the economy was the task at hand was highly irresponsible. This has only become worse in the past week as a government desperate to hold on to power showed itself willing to be reckless on the national unity file. That is one sleeping dog that should be left alone.

The Liberal Party, with its worst result in percentage of vote in its long and proud history, was also given a message on election night. Namely, that since losing power, the party, its leader and its caucus had failed to regain the confidence of the people. In fact, that confidence had further eroded since January of 2006.

The notion that the public would accept Stéphane Dion as prime minister, after having resoundingly rejected that possibility a few weeks earlier, was delusional at best. Mr. Dion had seemed to accept responsibility for the defeat (although somewhat reluctantly), and should have left his post immediately.

Confronted by a political crisis that was not of his making, Mr. Dion became an obstacle to his party, and to the opposition, in dealing with it. His weakness probably fuelled the Conservative hubris that led to this fiasco in the first place. Furthermore, in agreeing to the terms of the coalition with the NDP and the Bloc, Mr. Dion bound his successor to a controversial arrangement without even consulting any of the candidates to succeed him in the process, leaving them no option but to endorse it or break with him as party leader.

The government must be prevented from running roughshod over the opposition at all times, but especially when the voters have denied them a majority. The best way to do that is for the Liberal executive and caucus to choose a new leader immediately, one who can take charge before Christmas and get the caucus ready for the resumption of Parliament.

Money that would otherwise be spent on a rerun of the last leadership campaign should, instead, be raised for the party's coffers. The new leader should quickly move to modernize the party structure and to prepare an election program, just in case it is needed. But the first task should be to work collaboratively with all other parties to restore the confidence of Canadians in their Parliament.

The government needs to drop the ugly rhetoric that it reverted to so quickly and easily so soon after the election. It's not just about winning confidence votes. The confidence of the House of Commons needs to be earned on a daily basis, by being consultative, trustworthy and respectful. Unfortunately, Mr. Harper has put quite a dollop of poison into the well.

In my experience, most MPs come to Parliament motivated to do the best they can for their constituents. Perhaps on Jan. 26, all 308 of them will return with a new desire to fulfill that ambition.

John Manley is former deputy prime minister and minister of finance. He is now counsel at McCarthy Tétrault LLP.


If the Liberals press ahead with Celine Stéphane Dion’s plan to ally his party with Taliban Jack Layton and rely upon the support of the BQ then the party will pay a fearful price at the next general election; Stephen Harper will accomplish his aim of demolishing the Liberal Party, capturing the whole centre and leaving the NDP as supreme on the loony left wing fringe – which, while larger than in some countries, will never be big enough to be anything but a nuisance in Canada.

 
Zell_Dietrich said:
...
And if the big three go down,  there will be job losses and if people are unemployed how will they buy cars?  If they're not buying why build them? 

Did you ever wonder how Henry Ford's employees managed to afford cars when he started up?

To quote from Field of Dreams "If you build it, they will come."

There is a replacement market for automobiles that needs to be filled.  Automakers can count on that market over time.  Now the current market may be saturated.  The current recession may be discouraging people from buying.  The price of gas may have discouraged people from buying SUVs.

But there will be an ongoing need for personal transportation.... somebody will supply that need.  Over time.  

Not necessarily right now.

On the other hand, there is an ongoing international need for BTUs (or GigaJoules) if you prefer, we have them but we need the infrastructure to harvest them and transport them to market.  Supplying that infrastructure will create opportunities for people to build pumps and compressors rather than motors, pipes and controls rather cars.....


As to the exact nature of the crisis - it is hard to divine

UPDATE 2-Car buyers drive up Canada September retail sales
Tue, Nov 25 2008, 16:21 GMT
http://www.afxnews.com



By Louise Egan


OTTAWA, Nov 25 (Reuters) - Despite troubles in the auto industry, Canadians bought a lot of new cars in September, helping to push up overall retail sales in the month by an unexpectedly strong 1.1 percent from August.


Statistics Canada said on Tuesday the increase in retail sales was largely due to the first rise in new vehicle purchases since January. Car dealers in Canada forecast that 2008 will be the second or third best year on record for new vehicle sales, even as auto manufacturers complain of plummeting U.S. sales.


The September gain more than offset August's 0.3 percent decline in retail sales and made economists look excessively downbeat with their median forecast of a 0.3 percent increase.


"In all frankness, all economists are eating some humble pie on this one as growth in total sales nearly tripled estimates, while growth in core sales ex autos quadrupled consensus predictions," said Derek Holt, economist at Scotia Capital.


The rise in car sales does not mean smooth sailing for the Canadian auto manufacturing industry, however, as about one in nine cars made in Canada is exported to the United States, where car sales are at depressed levels.


Excluding the auto sector, which accounts for about a third of the total, Canadian retail sales still expanded by a robust 0.8 percent in September. Volumes rose 0.7 percent.


The sales growth is the latest in a series of strong third-quarter data, leading economists to predict economic growth of above 1 percent in the quarter.


The good news is unlikely to last through the fourth quarter as the impact of the global financial crisis hit the Canadian economy in full force in October.


"Don't mistake today's report for broader strength in the Canadian economy as businesses spend less on equipment purchases, housing is in retreat, commodity price declines are sparking key project suspensions and cancellations, and exports are getting whacked," Holt said.




NEAR-RECORD VEHICLE SALES


New car sales jumped 2.9 percent in value terms in September and the number of vehicles sold also rose. The automotive sector as a whole -- which encompasses used vehicles and parts and gasoline -- rose 2.2 percent.


Despite near-record sales, car dealers in Canada have asked the government for help in ensuring lines of credit from banks as the global crisis threatens to put some automakers out of business.


The Canadian Automobile Dealers Association said on Friday the industry is on track to sell about 1.6 million new vehicles this year. The record is just above that level.


By contrast, losses in Canada's auto manufacturing industry are expected to balloon to C$1.7 billion ($1.4 billion) this year due to collapsing sales in the U.S. market, the Conference Board of Canada said on Tuesday.


Four other retail sectors also posted gains in September, with the strongest being general merchandise stores and food and beverage stores. Stores selling building and outdoor home supplies posted their biggest drop in sales since April.

Canadians seem to have been doing their bit for CAW and Country.   It is hard to see how the Canadian Government can stimulate the auto industry anymore than it is in Canada.  

The problem appears to be that our Yankee brethren have come to believe their is a crisis (in time for the usual "its the economy stupid" election) and have shut down the taps .

How exactly is the Canadian Government going to persuade the American Consumer to buy more American Cars from American Companies so that the American Companies that are producing American Cars that American Consumers don't want  and  (in the short term at least) don't need, will keep Canadian Branch Plants open?

Also, given that the recession is widely believed to be a short term, (6-9 month) and shallow (1-2% of GDP) phenomenon, what type of stimulus might one propose that would take effect immediately and only last for one year?

Infrastructure spending is good but unless the drawings have already been done and the bills of material prepared you won't get an infrastructure project off the ground before the recession cures itself.  The only people that are likely to see "stimulus" dollars in the near term are likely to be engineering firms and, based on my current observation as a project manager, the engineering firms are not yet hurting for jobs.  They are still trying to catch up with the oil boom backlog.

PS, Retired AF Guy - he's trying to be clever.
 
Damme Edward,

If it was a run-off between John Manley and Stephen Harper I'd be hard-pressed not to vote for Manley.

Head and shoulders above both Ignatieff and Rae.
 
Kirkhill,

Interesting observation. They are both right of centre and have the charisma of a dish of day old neaps.

Their opponents however are vibrant and enthusiatic and, well everything, like a bowl of day old green jello snuck out of the local hospital. My old Scottish granny, if she were alive, would insist I substitue rice pudding for jello.
 
Winter's the season for "champit neaps".  A wee bit salt and pepper and vinegar.  Almost makes the haggis palatable.

As to the Jello or Rice Pud:

I think your closer than your Granny.  There is at least some substance to the Pud.  As my Granny used to say "It sticks to your ribs".  Jello is nothing but coloured sugar water.  It looks good.  It tastes sweet. But ultimately there is nothing to it.

Hmm...

Interesting characterizations there -

Manley - Rice Pudding
Harper - Mashed Turnips
Iggy - Lime Jello
Rae - Orange Jello

Dion - Perrier (over-priced fizzy water that gets up your nose).
 
Hmm...Kirkhill
You've got me a little confused.

I prefer Stephen Harper, but I also prefer rice pudding. A la carte perhaps?

I believe Manley is an anti-monarchist, not sure.  That sticks in my craw....
 
Kirkhill said:
Winter's the season for "champit neaps".  A wee bit salt and pepper and vinegar.  Almost makes the haggis palatable. ...

- Having been raised on oatmeal (I remain a lifelong addict), I thought haggis just dandy plain - once.  Vinegar is for fries, pepper goes on lettuce and potatoes, and salt goes on everything else - the more, the merrier.
 
john10 said:
Of course people knew. Party members and associates were actively taking part in fraud, mismanagement and whatever else. Paul Martin called the Gomery Commission in February of 2004 to investigate these allegations.

The notion that Paul Martin, as Minister of Finance, should have known what was going on, is nonsense, usually advanced by hyper-partisan conservatives who have little clue about ministerial duties.

So what are the duties of the Minister responsible for Quebec?
 
First order of business. If you want to put some Legitimacy behind this coalition. relace Dion, which will probably be done sooner than we think, most likely before Christmas. Second order of business is to conduct a Harper style cross country good old barn storming campaign for the coalition. Third order of business is to beat Harper at his won game, which means becoming as callous, cold and calculating as Sad am Hussein and don't let up.

The old analogy "You always beat a bully when you confront him" always works. A bullies facade is all smoke and mirrors. Take a way the smoke and all you have left is the mirrors, which reflect the true character of a bully, which is usually a very insecure individual, who uses fear tactics to hide their own shortcomings.

The Coalition may or may not hold together until January 26Th, but it's gratifying to know that neither will Mr.Harper come away unscathed. He may still be PM, but he will be in a much diminished capacity. He has succeeded in dividing the country on three fronts, politically, regionally and economically and he is now assured a place in Canadian history as one of the most narrowminded, dubious PM's ever to have sat in the PM's chambers. If there was a grand prize for stupidity, Mr. Harper would have been front runner for it last week.
Canada is the only G-20 country to have gone in reverse from an economic crisis backwards into political crisis and I think that shouts volumes as to the ability or lack of, of Mr. Harper's leadership. You know when a PM is not paying attention to whats important, when he has to be threatened by a haphazard coalition to come up with a "real" plan to ward of the worst global economic crisis we've seen in 79 years.

This crisis has effected all of us, not just the auto industry or the manufacturing sector. I'm in the information technology sector and there's already talk of large layoffs were I work, because it's no longer business a usual, anymore. So 09 could be a very lean year for many of us. We would have liked to see changes promised to us in the EI act, addressing the two week waiting period, before we received benefits. Now that probably won't be addressed unto sometime in 2010 if at all. Way to go Mr. Harper, Thank you again, for those insightfull words "Don't panic" our fundamentals are sound. If your referring the banks and the rich, yep there extremely OK, after all we you gave them $20,000,000,000 to just sit on, of course their OK, their laughing all the way to the bank, oh almost forgot, "they are the bank"! Meanwhile the people who actually make up the backbone and matter in this country have to wait until next near for the few scraps that will be left if anything. Something very wrong with this picture.

I may as well say what's on my mind while I still enjoy my right to "freedom of speech" in this country. To the reform conservative party. Your leaders lack of respect and utter disdain for anything opposing him is quite relevant and he has demonstrated that disdain time and again over this past week in the house commons, through his vocabulary and his actions or whats more is his "inaction". What he has repeatedly failed to realize, or has realized, is that you hold a minority government and are accountable to the wishes of the house, not the latter. Don't you get that Mr. Harper didn't obtain the big prize of a "majority" again or are you still under the illusion that you had, because your actions reveal that your still very much in denial to that affect. Wannabe's don't count!

For those of us, you joining the ranks of the unemployed soon and expect help from the Reform conservatives, goodluck, because it seems it's already to late for many of us. Mr. Harper, I'm very glad I didn't invest in the stock market when you advised there was great deals to be had, because the very same week that you said that, the market plumeted and shed some 600 of its index marking one of it's worst losses ever. It seems everyone who listens to you comes out on the losing end.


Am I pissed of, yes I'am!!
 
Despite being a card carry member of and regular contributor to the Conservative Party of Canada, I have a lot of sympathy for retiredgrunt45’s position.

I have said before that one of Harper’s weaknesses – and he has emphasized a few over the past couple of weeks – is his dislikeability; he certainly burnished (or further tarnished) that attribute recently.

His miscalculation showed all who may have doubted that he is quite ready, willing and able to put his own long term and highly partisan political agenda ahead of the needs of parliament and the country. The fact that I agree with his objectives and with the tools he chose does not alter the fact that now is not the time and a minority government is not the place.

We do, indeed, face a wholly unnecessary political crisis created entirely by Stephen Harper’s bad judgement.

The only things acting for Harper are:

• Dion’s dislikeability is at least as high as Harper’s;

Iggy and Rae are both almost as dislikeable;

(Parenthetically, I sat beside Belinda Stronach at a recent (quite apolitical) occasion and very near to Iggy and wife. Despite my admiration for much of what he has said and done and for his ability to ‘work a room’ and so on, I found myself, unexpectedly, cold towards him – he does come off as arrogant, in the extreme. He tries to be charming but it is clearly a false front. Ms Stronach gave hints (I guess that's the right word for a periodic head toss, etc - I may be reading waaaay too much into a few frowns and gestures) that she too found him politically 'phony' although she appeared to like him (and his wife - to whom I did not speak) personally.) and

Most Canadian neither like nor trust Jack Layton and most Canadians detest the BQ. Dion has made a strategic error.

 
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