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"Toronto 18" terrorists: Arrest/court/aftermath

The usual suspects are at it again....

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/07/canada-anti-terror-law-discriminates.php

A lawyer representing one of 17 Canadians arrested on terror charges in June argued Monday in an Ontario court that Canada's anti-terror legislation discriminates because it focuses only on "brown" Muslim and Arab groups and excludes "white" groups such as the Ku Klux Klan. Rocco Galati asked that the bail hearing for his client, Ahmad Ghany be held in front of a Superior Court Justice instead of a justice of the peace because the justice of the peace cannot address issues arising under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms issues.....

 
The KKK are a bunch of losers, but I don't think they quite qualify as terrorists, do they?  However, if it will shut up Galati, I am all for including them in the definition.
 
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1152741017173&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home



Mounties had mole in alleged terror cell
Exclusive:
Law prohibits publication of prominent member of Muslim community
Jul. 13, 2006. 05:23 AM
MICHELLE SHEPHARD
STAFF REPORTER

A well-known member of Toronto's Muslim community worked as a police agent to infiltrate an alleged terrorism cell that police say was planning attacks in Canada, the Toronto Star has learned.

Although his identity is now known within the community and also to some of the 17 terrorism suspects arrested June 2, his name cannot be published due to Canadian laws.

Sources say the man worked for the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service, and then became a paid RCMP agent once a criminal investigation was launched.

It's an offence under the Witness Protection Program Act to disclose the name of an RCMP agent.

While the names of sources in national security cases are often protected, this witness has agreed to testify in open court when his identity will be made public, sources say.

His name has not been revealed during court proceedings now underway to determine if any of the 17 accused will be released on bail. A publication ban prevents the reporting of any evidence heard during the bail hearings.

When contacted by the Star, the police agent said he did not want to talk about the case, saying that "justice should be served," and he looked forward to testifying in court.

Last month the Star revealed the involvement of a second police agent in the case, who allegedly took part in the delivery of three tonnes of ammonium nitrate. Police claim seven of the suspects were involved in the alleged plot to use the fertilizer to create truck bombs destined for targets in southern Ontario.

Since police were aware of the alleged purchase, they arranged for the switch of ammonium nitrate for a harmless substance before delivery, sources said.

Twelve adults and five youths have been charged with belonging to what police call a "homegrown" terrorist cell. Most of the suspects are Canadians and under the age of 25.

It's alleged that the group split earlier this year into two smaller sections. One group allegedly consisted of suspects who lived west of Toronto and were led by Zakaria Amara. Police have charged six of the adult suspects and one youth in the alleged plot to blow up targets in Toronto and elsewhere in the province.

The other group was allegedly led by 21-year-old Scarborough resident Fahim Ahmed, who allegedly rented a car for two other suspects who were caught last August bringing guns and ammunition into Canada from the U.S.

The involvement of hired agents in the case shows that undercover moles are now being used in terrorism cases in Canada — a common technique used in organized crimes investigations and increasingly in domestic security cases worldwide.

`The investigative techniques aren't new.

But the application for terrorism is.'

Mike McDonnell, RCMP Assistant Commissioner

The fact that the police agent who allegedly infiltrated the group worked for both CSIS and the RCMP seems to suggest a new level of co-operation between the two agencies that have been beset by turf wars in the past.

With the agents' involvement also comes a series of legal questions, likely to be posed by defence lawyers representing the 17 suspects.

What is the credibility of the agents? Why did they agree to work for police? How involved were they in the alleged planning of the attacks?

"It's going to depend on the disclosure and what role the operative played," says Paul Copeland, an experienced Toronto criminal lawyer and police watchdog, who is representing one of the 17 accused.

"The issue that could arise is the potential of entrapment. It's not appropriate for police to encourage a crime and then arrest those suspected of committing that crime."

It's an issue that has confronted prosecutors in international cases that involved police agents or undercover officers.

Australia's first terrorism trial ended in an acquittal last year after jurors heard that a police agent working for the country's spy service, and posing as a journalist, had offered 21-year-old terrorism suspect Zek Mallah $3,000 for a videotape of him uttering threats against government buildings. In acquitting him of the terrorism charges, the jury concluded that Mallah was not a terrorist, but a troubled orphan full of bravado.

The involvement of an FBI informant in case of seven Miami men charged with terrorism offences two weeks ago has been criticized by some of the defence lawyers who argue that the agent had concocted part of the case.

The men are accused of plotting to blow up Chicago's Sears Tower and federal buildings in five cities, and of having ties to Al Qaeda. Lawyer Nathan Clark told the New York Times that his client was "induced by the government," calling the case one of "entrapment."

But the involvement of an undercover officer and informant in a New York case led to a conviction this May and was trumpeted as a milestone in the city's fight against terrorism.

The trial of Shahawar Matin Siraj, convicted of plotting to blow up a subway station, revealed that an Egyptian-born police officer and undercover agent were instrumental in the case.

RCMP Assistant Commissioner Mike McDonnell said yesterday that he could not speak specifically about the Toronto terrorism case but noted that the use of police informers was not unique in Canadian criminal law and have been used successfully in past organized crime cases.

What makes the case unique is the fact that terrorism offences were introduced to Canada's criminal code in 2001, bringing the Mounties back into security, a field from which they had been ousted two decades earlier with the creation of CSIS.

"The investigative techniques aren't new," McDonnell said in an interview. "But the application for terrorism is."
 
A well-known member of Toronto's Muslim community worked as a police agent to infiltrate an alleged terrorism cell that police say was planning attacks in Canada, the Toronto Star has learned.

The CBC has actually showed an interview with the person and The Fifth Estate is preparing a programming with more interviews and details with the infiltrator.

This is one example of the many things the Muslim community has been doing to deny terrorists the privilege to use Islam as a name for their own agenda.
 
tamouh said:
This is one example of the many things the Muslim community has been doing to deny terrorists the privilege to use Islam as a name for their own agenda.

Nice sentiment, but I think you played on words a little there.  I do think that the Canadian Government is responsible, not the Muslim community.  I think that you are giving credit where credit may not necessarily be due.  It is good that this has been permitted to happen, but I seriously think that it was done without much knowledge of the Muslim community. 

It would be a credit if they were doing this, or even started to do this, but I highly doubt that they have the 'will' to actually do it at this time.  Perhaps this will be the event that opens some of their eyes to what is happening, but as you can see in the courts, there still is a lot of denial in that community.
 
Nice sentiment, but I think you played on words a little there.  I do think that the Canadian Government is responsible, not the Muslim community.  I think that you are giving credit where credit may not necessarily be due.  It is good that this has been permitted to happen, but I seriously think that it was done without much knowledge of the Muslim community. 

I think you need to watch the interview, and the fifth estate report once it is broadcasted because you certainly don't know how this incident have progressed. While credit is always given to the enforcement agencies, few here always talked about the "missing contribution" from Muslims. This is a further prove to the MAJOR contribution of Muslims in this society.

Though I disagree that the infiltrator had revealed his identity because it will put him and the whole investigation at risk, I do however believe he shares many of the same thoughts of many Muslims who contribute on daily basis in combating terrorism and criminal acts in this country that some people do not appreciate the value the Muslim community brings to this society.

It is difficult to be called a terrorist in the street and yet expect people to cooperate....but here is one of many examples to come that Muslims ignore these little voices of no reason to better everyone living in this country and beyond.
 
So your saying whoopee, look at us, for something that they should have been doing all along? When they're demonstrating in the streets against the terrorists after an attack and burning up the tips line when someone even jokes about doing something, when they stop funneling money to the madras, then you can come here and say what a great thing they're doing. So far the few that are doing the above deserve a lot of praise, but there's not enough of them.
 
So your saying whoopee, look at us, for something that they should have been doing all along? When they're demonstrating in the streets against the terrorists after an attack and burning up the tips line when someone even jokes about doing something, when they stop funneling money to the madras, then you can come here and say what a great thing they're doing. So far the few that are doing the above deserve a lot of praise, but there's not enough of them.

You can put twists on things all you want. The way I see it, there are people on the left, people on the right and people who don't want anything to do with either side.

Few here said Muslims were not doing enough, I kept saying there are many things being done and more can be done for sure, but don't expect people coming out in crowds saying we all want to be "spies". The few have always to do the job of the many, and that is how life goes so accept it for what it is.
 
I think what he is trying to say, and convince us, which I don't see happening, is that someone........let's say 'recceguy'......decided that it was immoral what a group in his 'community' were up to, so this guy (recceguy) went to CISIS and offered his services.  He then went back to his 'community' and infiltrated this group.  He passed the info on to CISIS and then they brought in the RCMP and he became a paid Police Informant.  No one in the 'community' knows that 'recceguy' is a Police Informant.  Now that arrests are made, because 'recceguy' was a member of that community, the community is responsible for turning these guys in.  I think that is his flawed logic.

I don't buy into that.  It is the morals of one individual, not the community, that are to be commended here.
 
I've seen some of the interview, a ton of the documentation and I do know a little bit about this man.

From a LE perspective, he seemed to be reliable but only to a limited point. Most of the LEA's that have been involved have been divided on just who was handling/managing who. In my view, I'm in the camp where his motivations are not honorable unless you are a Muslim. Listen carefully to this guy and read between the lines and you will hear him say as much. This guy could 2 give shits about Canada, even though he was born here. It was all about protecting the impact on the religion and the preserving the Muslim community, never about protection of innocent Canadians or standing up against the evil that threatens our country from within. He's a witness, and he is going to be torn to pieces on the stand. People of interest and interested people are going to make sure of that.  

And  'tamouh' -  ....  
 
I'm not saying for them to all come out and say "I want to be a spy". I want them to pour out into the street and denounce terrorism. Prove that they are not with them, but with us. They are to quiet whenever anything happens and it only adds to the mistrust.
 
George:
No one in the 'community' knows that 'recceguy' is a Police Informant.  Now that arrests are made, because 'recceguy' was a member of that community, the community is responsible for turning these guys in.  I think that is his flawed logic.

Again, George....go watch the interviews and wait for the fifth estate report , you have no idea what you're talking about because many community leaders were aware of this operation.

whisky601:
From a LE perspective, he seemed to be reliable but only to a limited point. Most of the LEA's that have been involved have been divided on just who was handling/managing who. In my view, I'm in the camp where his motivations are not honorable unless you are a Muslim. Listen carefully to this guy and read between the lines and you will hear him say as much. This guy could 2 give shits about Canada, even though he was born here. It was all about protecting the impact on the religion and the preserving the Muslim community, never about protection of innocent Canadians or standing up against the evil that threatens our country from within. He's a witness, and he is going to be torn to pieces on the stand. People of interest and interested people are going to make sure of that.  

He choose what he wanted to do and he made the right decision, Muslims and Canadians appreciate that. He has done this for all of us and not for selfish desires. Otherwise, he would have became rich, asked for witness protection and living somewhere happily ever after. In your point, you're saying there is no satisfying to your quest.

recce:
I'm not saying for them to all come out and say "I want to be a spy". I want them to pour out into the street and denounce terrorism. Prove that they are not with them, but with us. They are to quiet whenever anything happens and it only adds to the mistrust.

Seriously, why don't Canadians in general organize a anti-terrorism protest and I guarantee you the Muslim community will be at the head of the march. Don't square the blame on a group if you're not willing to act yourself.
 
tamouh said:
Again, George....go watch the interviews and wait for the fifth estate report , you have no idea what you're talking about because many community leaders were aware of this operation.
tamouh

I am tired of your blindered look on the world. 

Bye.
 
It must be wonderful to be you, going through life with such a naive and simplistic view of the world. A world where everyones your friend, and they all believe in your point of view. I give up talking to you. Your just like every other zealot I've met. Reasoned arguement has no place in your platitudes. When it doesn't suit your cause, you just skip over the opposing point, misconstrue it, or completely avoid it by deflecting the conversation elsewhere. Good night to you, I've wasted enough time here with you already.
 
George Wallace said:
tamouh

I am tired of your blindered look on the world. 

Bye.

You're not the only one George, lets just give him the rope he needs.

Cheers,

Wes
 
Here's a thought:
If the Muslim community is so benign, and is so well integrated into Canadian society, then why is this informant being afforded the full protection one would expect for someone who is being sought by organized crime?  According to Tamouh, the percentage of bad Islamists in Canada is smaller than Anglophone-only Bloc members.  So why wouldn't the informant be embraced by the swell of protection that can only come from a culture that is so heady with the love of their country? 
Surely, this man won't face any derisive comments when he strides into the mosque to pray with his brothers? 
But of course his family need not fear repercussion, since the presence of organized terrorism is only a paper tiger that the Neo-Cons invented in order to appease GWB and his Crusade war on terror?
And obviously, the man will be honoured at some sort of dinner function for his contribution to the well being of Islam, and the betterment of Islamic Canadians everywhere. 
Right? 
ABOUT WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT


::)
 
tamouh said:
Again, George....go watch the interviews and wait for the fifth estate report , you have no idea what you're talking about because many community leaders were aware of this operation.

Tamouh,
I can appreciate you wanting to defend your community/religon/point of view however this quote of yours above is a blatant fabrication either on your part, or from a source you saw/heard.  That is not the way these things operate......EVER.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Tamouh,
I can appreciate you wanting to defend your community/religon/point of view however this quote of yours above is a blatant fabrication either on your part, or from a source you saw/heard.  That is not the way these things operate......EVER.

I think he means that they were aware of the terrorist operation, which would make sense since it was clearly something that was being organized through the mosque.  That is the complacency that we have all been talking about.
 
I think he was trying to assert that the communitiy leaders knew about the infiltration..........and you and I both know that wouldn't happen.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
I think he was trying to assert that the community leaders knew about the infiltration..........and you and I both know that wouldn't happen.

Oh, well then... :rofl:

Hoo, Tamouh.  You can be quite the rapier wit!!
 
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