"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[Scoobie Newbie]

As far as lack luster combats.  Ours were less then good on the first initial issue as well.  Stitching was sub par and mine fell apart in garrison with little work load put on them.  90% of the troops were in the same boat regarding first issue of our new combats.  I can only assume it was the case because there was a push from higher to get the boys kitted out in the new dudes.

 

[aesop081]

 

One question I have would be why has the CF not gotten into FR items for the basic soldiers --

I doubt that the basic soldier would bother to use FR clothing properly. Even now, alot of CF pers who are required to wear FR uniforms do not do so peroperly. A second layer of clothing is required for it to be effective and i doubt that in places like the sandbox, Pte Bloggins would be willing to do that.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Does Carbon X require a second layer?

 

[KevinB]

Yes -- both it and dry fire etc.

The Second layer is more of an insulation layer, in addition to giving you an extra bit after the exterior suit goes crispy.
Some FR gloves are built with a dual later in the palms - some are not.

Cdn Aviator -- see one buddy becoming a crispy critter is an eye opener. 

 

[aesop081]

Does Carbon X require a second layer?

From the company's website :

Another relevant rating system that has been used for years is the Thermal Protective Performance, or TPP. This applies to the garment's ability to provide thermal protection when exposed to both direct flame and radiant heat, and the length of time before a person is subject to second-degree burns. After extensive TPP, flammability and shrinkage test comparisons between the leading FR fabrics and CarbonX®, based on the autoracing industry SFI standards, the results show CarbonX is a superior product. At approximately 600° f., the leading FR fabrics burn, begin to shrink while charring, then crack and decompose. This is all in about 10 seconds. Under flammability testing, the FR fabrics will ignite and they often have problems passing the shrinkage test. Under the same conditions, CarbonX® is not effected in any way. It even disburses the heat energy and will take about 60 seconds before the heat will start penetrating the next layer of fabric. CarbonX® will not ignite or burn even when exposed to temperatures exceeding 2600° f. for over 120 seconds. As for material shrinkage, it does not exist with CarbonX®. See testing results.

The company says the fabric performs better than nomex and others and will not burn. That being said, without a second layer of material underneath, heat WILL penetrate and cause injury.

You have to ballance the need for FR with the need for something light, that is easily washable and that can take a pounding and allow the soldier to work without retaining enough heat to cause heat-related injury. A second layer considerably adds to that risk and ,IMHO, Pte Bloggins will ditch the second layer 9 times out of 10.

 

[aesop081]

Cdn Aviator -- see one buddy becoming a crispy critter is an eye opener. 

agreed

I have seen many videos and pictures as part of training where you can clearly see the difference between one layer and two layers. Its not pretty.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

One layer of FR would be better then none would it not?

 

[armyvern]

Vern, I never said that it's all dangerous and all crappy and everyone hates it. Infact I pointed out the ones that I did like, and maybe I didn't specify at the beginning but it's only my opinion. Sure there'll be people who love CTS kit, and those who hate it. But when I have a large percentage of troops that I see on a range ex or Bde ex modify or out right not use issued kit because of their non-serviceability, I begin to wonder the effectiveness of the issued kit that was given to our troops.

Now like I said before I think CTS has made some pretty good stuff, and I won't budge on the armour and helmet issue, because I believe that despite its bulkiness and other down falls the current issued armour isn't too bad, and once the inserts have been changed the helnet is an excellent piece of kit. But I have to wonder how come we (The CF) has yet to engage in a helmet modernization program like the one they have in the States? The Advanced Combat Helmet System? Where BLISS and BLU type kits have been installed and are authorized and even encouraged to be done so on the existing helmets that the troops have?

Here again is my own personal opinion with regards to why some people still prefer issued kit.

Word up:

SOME people HATE the mortar gloves. SOME people love them.
SOME people hate the fleece. SOME people love it.

For everything your opinion likes or doesn't --- there are those that hold the OPPOSITE opinion.

And, your opinion and post about them liking it because of "not being exposed to it" -- does not marry up with the facts. SOME of these people have indeed been exposed to it ... both on and off the battlefields of Afghanistan. That is true of people which hold "I like it" opinions AND of people who hold "I don't like it" opinions. Do NOT attempt to write off "good" opinions of it as being held simply because "they have not been exposed to it" -- that's simply not true.

And, your opinion of the "cost factor" is simply NOT true nor is it supported by the facts either. Our kit has been tested and is PROVEN. It is EFFECTIVE, just as effective as Gucci kit, and in many cases (as I've already stated) that gucci kit has been tested side-by-side with CTS kit items and has performed to a LESSER level than CTS kit in those tests. Sure, cost is prohibitaive for buying Gucci kit when issued kit is free. But, that does not mean that GUCCI kit is better -- testing has demonstrated that, in many cases, it IS NOT. Therefore ... troops buying that Gucci gear -- are wasting their money for a brand name a LOT of the time -- it does not mean that they are settling for less effective or safe kit. That's a fact.

 

[armyvern]

As far as lack luster combats.  Ours were less then good on the first initial issue as well.  Stitching was sub par and mine fell apart in garrison with little work load put on them.  90% of the troops were in the same boat regarding first issue of our new combats.  I can only assume it was the case because there was a push from higher to get the boys kitted out in the new dudes.

Yes, it certainly was true of the first run of cadpats. Due to an input error in the specs (fading/thread weight). That was dealt with via craploads of UCRs being pumped into the system and the situation corrected -- very quickly.

It had nothing to do with pushing inferior kit onto soldiers quickly. The very LAST thing that CTS is good at, is getting kit out quickly.

 

[Yrys]

It had nothing to do with pushing inferior kit onto soldiers quickly. The very LAST thing that CTS is good at, is getting kit out quickly.

(and yes, you can erased my post ... )

 

[armyvern]

One question I have would be why has the CF not gotten into FR items for the basic soldiers -- many troops have suffered horrible burns due in part to the material (which dries easier) of the combat clothing.  Now I took both stats and economics at univeristy - and I can remember the factors affecting consumer recalls - was based on whether or not the expected lawsutis for negligence would outweight the costs or the recall.

I totally agree with the above. The Army lags way behind in this area as compared to the Air Force. The CF, in general, has a very far way to go regarding FR.

And, for OPSECs sake, I won't post any of the testing results or videos of those side-by-side blowing ups of gucci next to CTS gear either ... some people would be shocked to see the money they'd wasted on certain items.

 

[Fusaki]

What the CF needs to do is wise up and create a definitive list of "approved" COTS gear for soldiers to buy, if they want to spend their money on it.

I'm not sure this is a viable solution.

The industry moves so fast and the bureaucracy is so slow that by the time good COTS gear is approved by the big army it will be outdated.

I suggest that we open the floodgates to everything CADPAT and let the decision making be done at the lowest levels.  Let the section commanders, PL WOs, CSMs and RSMs shut down the really dumb pieces of kit on an individual basis.  If a young Pte wants to spend his own money on COTS gear, let him. But if he's right outv'er, his section commander will shut that down and he'll suffer the expense of buying gear he can't use.

I have faith that a sort of non-issue "natural selection" will prevail.  Guys will police each other and good ideas will thrive while bad ideas die out.  Things will be constantly tested and evaluated and tactical thought will be stimulated as guys analyze problems and look for solutions.  Scenarios will be war-gamed and guys will start thinking outside the PAM at the lowest levels.

In the grander scheme of things, I believe in democracy and a free market because it reflects a survival of the fittest in political ideology in the former and economics in the latter.  These systems work because the free masses will always take the path of least resistance.  Good businesses are allowed to prosper and poor business die out, trimming the fat and streamlining our economy.  The majority vote wins allowing a government that most people can at least live with.  One person will make mistakes, but 10 people will make fewer. 80,000 people all testing gear will show trends in what equipment works and what doesn't.  The odd person might do something stupid, but overall the group will be better off.

This is demonstrated in the success of websites like wikipedia. Everyone knows of a case where some anonymous writer posted something on wikipedia that was way out to lunch, but it is usually caught pretty quick by 10 other people who know better.  As everyone contributes together the end result is an largely unbiased source of mostly accurate information.  Because it is policed by it's own freedom it avoids the mistakes a single author would make. It is survival of the fittest applied to knowledge.  It's not perfect, but its fast and it's accurate enough - as shown by it's popularity.

Now, just because an idea is popular doesn't make it right.  But in our environment with our operational tempo as it is and the amount of training that we do, we have the opportunity to test popular opinion against real world conditions.  As more and more troops figure out what works and what doesn't in places like Kandahar and Helmand popular opinion changes to reflect real life.  I don't care how many studies you do, a Canadian Battlegroup given free reign over their equipment will figure out what works best in Kandahar faster then a handfull of R&D types in NDHQ.  R&D can conduct trails and surveys to try and see what the troops want, but the bayonets on the ground will always evolve faster.

War as I see it is a race of adaptation.  The faster we can share information, identify goals, and focus on those goals the better chance we'll all come home alive.  The faster we can fuck up the bad guys OODA loop and keep it fucked up the sooner the war will be over.  It's about taking the initiative to throw the enemy off balance and aggressively exploiting those holes faster then he can plug them.  If we adapt to the situation faster then he does, we will win.

So how do we do survive?  The same way every other species fights for survival. Natural selection.  It's defined life on earth up to this point and any species that had it's priorities elsewhere has died off.  Free economy has brought financial prosperity, free democracy has brought political stability, and if given the chance a free thinking army will find the path of least resistance and choose the right gear for the job.  It will adapt faster, fight smarter, and win wars.

 

[aesop081]

One layer of FR would be better then none would it not?

No. Not in my experience anyways.

I wear a nomex-type flight suit. Under it im am supposed to wear 100% cotton long underwear. One without the other is utterly useless.

All of you boys and girls out there who have seen the pictures from that AH-64 crew that did a ground egress in Iraq wearing only the flight suit will knwo what i mean.

And for you army types, FR clothing takes alot more care in the wash that CADPAT.....again if done properly. It is not supposed to be washed with anything else (i.e. flamable fabrics),you cant use dryer sheets either. The material tends to be thicker and not breath as well as CADPAT so you would sweat alot more.........

 

[KevinB]

It depends.  For flash - as when something like and RPG enters a vehicle and sets the air on fire a single FR can help immensly as opposed to shrink rap when flame exposed garments.

For direct contatc with fire -- Nomex will char and burn --

Like armoured vehicles and personal body armour -- its can buy you time to act.

 

[daftandbarmy]

One layer of FR would be better then none would it not?

Rip stop cotton would probably be just fine, like other armies have their soldiers wearing right now.  :

A pal of mine recently returned from KAF and said "We have two armies right now: one in the theatre of operations that gets all kinds of stuff issued that the army at home will never see". Now, this makes good sense because lots of lives are at stake, so why not make sure that the troops on the ground in Central Asia right now get the fighting kit they need to do the job right, and safely. The other 99% of the CF, like me, can get by with the CTS stuff (which is far better than the old stuff for exercises in Wainwright or wherever). I mean, if we can have Leo 2, Nyalas and 155mm, etc etc in theatre, why not issue a few hundred sets of the best quality fighting kit to the very pointy end of our CF spear, who are spending more time outside the wire than in, to make sure that they have the world class gear they need to do the job right first time and come home safely. What would that cost? No idea, but I'm betting it's less than a single Leo 2. And if it happens to save even one life I, for one, think it's worth it.

This would also be a good opportunity for these pointy end folks to inform upgrades to the current range of CTS kit based on their experience with the good stuff. It would also be one hell of a good competition for suppliers to come up to the standards expected. Our 'troops in contact' would then be leading the rest of us by example, as it were, in more ways than one.

 

[a78jumper]

.

I wear a nomex-type flight suit. Under it im am supposed to wear 100% cotton long underwear. One without the other is utterly useless.

Interesting . I wear Nomex everyday as part of my PPE on the job and I  never knew that.

 

[Gunner98]

Frostnipped Elf - the intial ACU's had problems with the *** ripping out -- it has since been fixed.  Keep in mind the US Mil is at WAR, troops in combat will wear out clothing (amongst other things) at a much fast rate than garrison.

I6,

My anecdotal evidence regarding ACU/BDU came from a recent 3-week crse at NNMC Bethesda with TSgt-Lt(N)-LCol from all 4-branches (HSS folks) with recent combat experience - 3 branches expressed dissatisfaction with their BDU/ACU clothing, the Marines were the only exception.  Pockets, velcro and bungee-type closures, and the dreaded elastic wrist/ankle cuffs were some of the issues expressed.

 

[BinRat55]

Please I will make you a deal -- I wont tell you how to run a supply system -- you dont talk about gear - EVER!

"Gear" is what I do. And as far as telling me how to run a supply system is concerned, what good is a supply system is no one recognises it?My apologies if i've offended anyone.

 

[Farmboy]

"Gear" is what I do.

"Gear" is what you organize and handout.

"Gear" is what I-6 and some of the others use on a daily basis.


It's like the two guys in my regiment who thought they were experts on CQB/FIBUA just because they helped build the FIBUA site at Denison.

 

[BinRat55]

"Gear" is what you organize and handout.

"Gear" is what I-6 and some of the others use on a daily basis.


It's like the two guys in my regiment who thought they were experts on CQB/FIBUA just because they helped build the FIBUA site at Denison.

Isn't that special. So I have been reduced to "organising and handing out"? I'm not claiming to be an expert on "gear", i'm stating that if WE are issued it, we should be wearing it. We have a perfectly good Trials and Evaluation unit who goes through great lengths to put this stuff through it's paces and report on it - favorably or otherwise. Read Vern's posts here - some like it for some reasons, some hate it for others. We (we meaning CF) can't suit everyone, no matter how hard we try.

I am, however, an expert on the supply system - this is MY job. If for one moment you believe that I, and other Supply Techs are nothing but kit pushers, think again. I've been overseas four times, as with many other purple trades, and i've used our "gear" for my protection. I have volunteered and gone on foot patrols outside the wire, air sentrys and sat on many gate guards. Don't get me wrong here, i'm not saying that I do what the brave men and women within our combat arms trades do on a daily basis, but we supply techs are much more than organisers and pushers. We wear the stuff too.