"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[Scoobie Newbie]

I know its a tangent but any non-issued helmet liners are forbidden, pants must be bloused at all times, Oakelys are not allowed anymore.  I guess hundreds of thousands of SOF have been wrong all along.  TF 1-08 have been allowed to "trial" about 10 different rigs including usage overseas.  The new cocking handle is absolute junk and break often.  I would hate to be in the middle of a high intensity battle and have my cocking handle bust on me.  There is a tech bulletin authorizing the Wpn tech's to swap the new handles with old ones.

 

[OldSolduer]

We are off on a tangent, but lets go that way. What can it hurt?
Discussion and debate is a healthy thing, as long as you don't get personal or call someone a stupid f&*$head.
The kit issue is a contentious one. As a CSM I have a duty to ensure that the dress policy conforms with higher's intent. I also have a duty to do what's is best and right for the troops. This can often conflict. I won't make up stupid excuses (like you can't adopt a prone position with non issue rigs) to correct someone. Its an order, and soldiers do what they are told.
Having said that, it is also the Sergeant Majors duty to inform his higher of problems with kit and his recommendations that may alleviate or solve the problem. Not enough mag capacity in the issue Tac Vest? Authorize the troops to purchase their own, with the provisio that it must conform to the environment (ie desert) and it be durable enough to with stand at least 6 months of operations.
And, in my opinion, if you ever get eviscerated, it won't matter what you are wearing, but I'm no expert in that field.

If anyone from NDHQ reads these threads, let common sense prevail.

 

[paraflare]

So you heard rumors?!?!  About Wiley X, please, by all means post the tests.

They pass the MIL-V-43511C, MIL-PRF-31013, all shatterproof changeable styles meet or exceed ANSI Z87.1-2003. 

Shall we start a long list of who is issued Wiley X, Oakley, ESS compared to Revision?

God forbid our guys use gear that is approved for use with US Special Forces.  This whole ******* concept of the CF having a approve everything again is stupid.

Take for example the BLSS / Skydex pads.  Approved for use in the US and is helping to prevent huge numbers of head injuries, but no not in Canada, we have to wait for it to be tested again, BUT, it won't be tested until a unit buys it, BUT WAIT, the units won't buy it until it's approved!!!!

Ok, I usually just check out posts here but this thread strikes a cord with me. Ill try to give some up to date real world info as to whats going on *here*. BEW - Yes the issued ballistics work, but I, and alot of guys, find them uncomfortable. And they do scratch, and the optical clarity is garbage. Alot of guys use Oakley M Frames, including myself. The Oakleys show scratches alot less, the frames are comfortable, and the lenses are crystal clear. Canadians cant order off US Standard Issue but if you email Oakley Canada they can hook you up with thier rep for mil/leo sales. Needless to say after you send some paper work in you can get an M Frame array(black, clear and orange shooting lens) for $140, which is a steal.

As for the rigs, at the end of the "trial" we overwhelmingly said we wanted a Warlord style rig, like the JTF one they gave out. Now, the Warlord coms in modular and non modular configurations so if they try telling you that the PPCLI said we want non mod then theyre wrong. The rifleman Warlords(versions 1, 2 and 3) are perfect for the rifleman loadout. Theyre also modular on top of the sewn on pouches. The Version 4 is completely modular and more suitable for mgs. Anything CLS or DLR says is RTF out of er. Most guys are either running HSGI or Tactical Tailor(mav or molle tac vest), and the CPGear rig is used. I saw some people saying that a CIRAS style rig would be perfect... No. Having plates/  kevlar on and being able to take off the vest is crutial for mounted guys . I dont even think they should try developing a new vest. The tacvest *can* work in every job, you just have to try real hard to make it. What they should do is have an authorized list of manufacturers that troops can use. I.E. HSGI, TT, CP, Blackhawk. This way guys arent using some chinese sweatshop knock off rigs, but still have the option to get what they need.

Helmet upgrades: I have a Oregon Aero BLSS kit on my skull. If anybody has a problem with it they can fist themselves. If Im willing to drop my cash to protect my head and they want to bitch about it, then send me home cause Im not taking it off. But anyways this isnt a problem as so many guys have it. And for anybody deploying, And Oregon Aero or Skydex kit is DEFINITELY worth investing in.

CP Gear OTW Shirt: This thing is amazing. Been using it for weeks now. Used in front of high high higher ups and not one second look. The guys at CP Gear aced this thing hard. This shirt allows the rare breeze to go right through your armour, man it's bliss. One suggestion, maybe throw zipper pulls on the sleeve pockets cause grabbing that little zipper with gloves on is tough. Other than that it's the cats ass.

But anyways to conclude, these people that sit back and bitch about non issued kit arent the ones who need the kit that works. So if they rag you out, take it off then throw er back on as theyre walking away.

 

[mudgunner49]

Oh I agree but some pers don't have $1000 bucks kicking around, add in the fact that it takes a General to charge you.

I don't buy the money angle.  I have young soldiers who think nothing of going out and dropping 2-300 bones on a weekend of drinking, or several thousand dollars on stereo/entertainment equipment - the need to do a bit of prioritizing here is pretty obvious to me.  I support a family and still manage to feed the monkey on my back...


blake

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

YOU may not buy the angle but that doesn't mean it isn't true for others.  I don't have $1000 to spend in one shot on that sort of thing and I don't drink or smoke.

 

[RHFC_piper]

YOU may not buy the angle but that doesn't mean it isn't true for others.  I don't have $1000 to spend in one shot on that sort of thing and I don't drink or smoke.

(just before I go into this, please understand I don't mean to slag any one... so don't take it the wrong way)

I guess it comes down to weather or not you believe you require it or not.  Plenty of guys on my tour didn't feel they needed anything more than the issued kit, and they seemed to get by just fine, even in combat.  But, with that said; The former RSM of my unit once made a very good point; "You choose to be uncomfortable."  If you think you can get by with issued kit, by all means, do it.  But, I personally found the extra kit I bought made my job easier and more effective, and thus, more comfortable.

I dropped about $1500 easy on all the gear I picked up before deploying; Forward grip, rails, Chest rig, Knee pads, Shemagh, etc.  And some of it (some expensive stuff) never came home with me... due to damage, destruction or use by others (who needed it more than me after I left)...  But, with that said, and considering that I was only there for 3 weeks and will probably never go back, I consider it a good investment.  The kit helped me be a more effective soldier by making my job easier or more comfortable... and in hind sight, had I known then what I know now, I would have purchased a hell of a lot more.  (I have a large wish list for if I ever go back.)

So, while spending $1000+ in one go seems like a lot of bling, in the long run, how much is it worth when you get there and find you need something else to do your job more effectively or easily? 
I too was on a restricted budget (thanks to the Residential Sergeant Major - aka. Niner Domestic), so I purchased these items a bit at a time.  When you think about it, how often do you buy stuff you really don't need?  Coffee, junk food, fast food, video games, booze, etc.  That stuff adds up, and when you think about it; some of these tactical items, while making your job easier, may also save your life... possibly.

But, with this in mind, there are also those soldiers who are just Kit sluts and buy everything weather they need it or not, so it really does come down to prioritizing in many ways; not just for operation, but for personal finance as well.

Just my $0.02

 

[MG34]

Any cash spent on kit is recovered on the first tour pay. Just because of rank I am no more immune from prosecution than anyone else, it still only requires an MWO to refer the charges. Then again I have yet to hear of anyone ,anywhere get charged for "illegal kit"there have been threats of it biy I have not heard of any charges sticking.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Heck, I had a no hook private go out and buy a brand new 2008 Nissan Altima four days BEFORE we left for the tour.. talk about sensible spending.  Priorities?  Fail.

 

[BinRat55]

I've been following this thread for a few months now, albeit with a little frustration. Oldsoldier, you almost hit it on the head for me. While I AM a supply tech, I (much like Vern) have a little common sense.  But you know, common sense only goes so far!! Suitable or not, there is a REASON this kit was purchased. Yes, some of the underlying factors were associated with cost, but not all. Every piece of protective kit you are wearing can either be attributed or not attributed to your injury, should it happen. DND is faithfully aware of the underwriters policy which is covered by all "actual, issued kit". Should you get injured and you're NOT wearing the kit you were issued, good luck because there is yet another battle you will have to fight.

It's not up to you to decide - period.  There was a thread over and up one where a high ranking individual allowed his members wear a civilian pattern holster for the 9 mm. First, he went through the proper channels. Second, he was the commanding officer - an informed commanding officer. Third, he mandated it into his dress policy for travel outside the wire. It was a mag pouch. You people are here talking about helmets, knee pads, LBV configurations - where does it stop? When is it EVER acceptable to do what you want when you're in the CF? The ones with more time in need to set an example here. I had a young Cpl come up to me with a "Soldier of Fortune" magazine a few weeks ago and show me (all excited) a pair of pants and glasses that he had ordered, hoping very much to have them before we went to the range next month...THIS IS FRICKING GANDER!! And it's contagious.

There is a way. You, those who train with the "issued" kit - address your concerns. You feel that a certain piece of kit that is on your head or around your body is inadequate, learn to write a memo. Some people in here have absolutely wonderful writing skills. For the sake of others, write a memo. In the mean time, if too many people just randomly decide that they would rather wear protective gear NOT approved by DND, we will not look uniform anymore and we will be just like other nations who can't afford uniforms - or better yet, a band of merry men, trying to rob from the rich and give to the poor.

Better yet, give NDQAR a call and ask them why we wear the helmet we wear.

Sorry for the rant, I just can't believe that with the kind of kit we now have compared to the kit we (my father) issued 50 years ago we STILL have kids ordering kit from a Go&%$@# magazine.

 

[armyvern]

DND is faithfully aware of the underwriters policy which is covered by all "actual, issued kit". Should you get injured and you're NOT wearing the kit you were issued, good luck because there is yet another battle you will have to fight.

There will be no fight. VAC & SISiP have already stated the kit being worn/or not ... will not play a factor in decision determination. They care only that the incident/injury is in-theatre attributable.

 

[KevinB]

I've been following this thread for a few months now, albeit with a little frustration...

snip  While I AM a supply tech,

snip

Sorry for the rant, I just can't believe that with the kind of kit we now have compared to the kit we (my father) issued 50 years ago we STILL have kids ordering kit from a Go&%$@# magazine.

Please I will make you a deal -- I wont tell you how to run a supply system -- you dont talk about gear - EVER!

 

[PuckChaser]

There's always COTS kit that is better, from boots to holsters to vehicles and weapons. What the CF needs to do is wise up and create a definative list of "approved" COTS gear for soldiers to buy, if they want to spend their money on it. I think it was said before in this thread: "Only a fool is uncomfortable in the field."

 

[Fishbone Jones]

There will be no pile ons here.

INFORMED opinions and discussion only, please.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[armyvern]

Canadian kit has passed destructive testing.

I don't mind the bitching about the kit, because some of it does suck ...

But constant postings about it being less safe than "gucci" kit are bullshit, seeing as how our kit has outperformed a heck of a lot of the kit being "pushed" around here in blast, frag and other testing.

Don't hold our kit to ANSI levels either -- our kit is tested to and exceeds ANSI standards.

Don't mingle erroneous information into bitchs about kit if you want to stay in lanes.

Not liking something -- does not mean it's unsafe. Something that works for you --- does not mean it will work for someone else -- and that includes gucci gear.

CTS makes one bad item doesn't automaticlly mean that ALL their items are bad ... unlike what some would like to have others believe. Personal grudges sometimes come out in ones viewpoint. That's quite obvious.

 

[medaid]

CTS has thus far made crappy boots, crappy LBE, crappy small pack system... To just name a few. So ar there aren't that many great kit that came out of the CTS program. The ones I thinks are great off of the top of my head are, mortar gloves, neck gaiter/ninja mask, boonies and the NEW raingear. Even the new rain gear needs maasive improvements.

The BEW like boots are individual preferences. Incase you haven't noticed everyone's face is shaped differently. I will NEVER EVER encourage or condone troops to purchase personal BA. Never ever. Even though there are better stuff out there, but that is one part along with helmet that I will not stand by and let the troops go wild on. If you want to make the helmet more comfy by using a BLISS or BLU kit? Then by all means, but you WILL wear that ugly thing and your heavy as hell armour too . That's my compromise. I know many people won't agree with me, but the way I look at it, you need to be comfortabke to be effective. But there is a line, and the line that I draw is at the helmet and BA.

 

[armyvern]

CTS has thus far made crappy boots, crappy LBE, crappy small pack system... To just name a few. So ar there aren't that many great kit that came out of the CTS program. The ones I thinks are great off of the top of my head are, mortar gloves, neck gaiter/ninja mask, boonies and the NEW raingear. Even the new rain gear needs maasive improvements.

The BEW like boots are individual preferences. Incase you haven't noticed everyone's face is shaped differently. I will NEVER EVER encourage or condone troops to purchase personal BA. Never ever. Even though there are better stuff out there, but that is one part along with helmet that I will not stand by and let the troops go wild on. If you want to make the helmet more comfy by using a BLISS or BLU kit? Then by all means, but you WILL wear that ugly thing and your heavy as hell armour too . That's my compromise. I know many people won't agree with me, but the way I look at it, you need to be comfortabke to be effective. But there is a line, and the line that I draw is at the helmet and BA.

No actually. Let's get this correct:

SOME people don't like CTS boots. SOME do.
SOME people don't like CTS LBE. SOME do.
SOME people don't like CTS SPS. SOME do.
SOME people don't like the new rain gear. SOME do. (and they all bitched and screamed "when are we getting ours??" right here on this very site).

The EXACT same thing can be said about EVERY brand of Gucci gear. SOME like it. SOME do not.

How come, for SOME of you, "SOME" for CTS gear therefore equals "NO ONE likes it", "EVERYONE" hates it, and "NONE of it works, and "ALL" of it is dangerous??

That's complete and total bullshit.

My problem with all the bitching about CTS --

Is that all the detractors LOVE to slam the individuals and the system. Yet, documented ballisitics testing etc shows the CTS to outperform the Gucci gear. So, keep the bitching to the facts.

If it's uncomfortable -- that's one thing. Unsafe is totally another. And, for every one of you who finds "Gucci armour XXX" "comfortable and therefore ultimately better and safer and more effective for the soldier" ... there's another soldier out there who does NOT think that about the same Gucci item. Exactly the same as CTS gear.

 

[Yrys]

How come, for SOME of you, "SOME" for CTS gear therefore equals "NO ONE likes it", "EVERYONE" hates it, and "NONE of it works, and "ALL" of it is dangerous??

That's complete and total bullshit.

My problem with all the bitching about CTS --

Is that all the detractors LOVE to slam the individuals and the system. Yet, documented ballisitics testing etc shows the CTS to outperform the Gucci gear. So, keep the bitching to the facts.

I would say that it is in the human nature to generalise one position to make it more valuable, and make one dislike more strong.
As a DS here, ArmyVern, you have already encounter it.

add :

It's the "Everyone think so, so I'm right!"

 

[Gunner98]

I agree with Vern.  The rationale that "the US Army, Rangers or Seals have it" therefore it must be great is risky.  Just look at their CBRN gear.  They use 1/100th as much CS Gas as we do in the Gas Hut training so that the troops do not get a whiff and doubt their equipment. 

There will always be different gear that an individual prefers, the challenge is buying 50,000 or 100,000 sets of it at a time given the Cdn Supply ad Svcs requirements. Buying for one item that meets your individual style, needs, wants and/or comfort desires from $ in your own pocket will always be easier.

Yes, the US military can buy in bulk but just look at their new BDUs that last about 6 months versus the old pattern that lasted 2 years or more.  Same clothing allowance, quadruple the replacement rate.

 

[medaid]

Vern, I never said that it's all dangerous and all crappy and everyone hates it. Infact I pointed out the ones that I did like, and maybe I didn't specify at the beginning but it's only my opinion. Sure there'll be people who love CTS kit, and those who hate it. But when I have a large percentage of troops that I see on a range ex or Bde ex modify or out right not use issued kit because of their non-serviceability, I begin to wonder the effectiveness of the issued kit that was given to our troops.

Now like I said before I think CTS has made some pretty good stuff, and I won't budge on the armour and helmet issue, because I believe that despite its bulkiness and other down falls the current issued armour isn't too bad, and once the inserts have been changed the helnet is an excellent piece of kit. But I have to wonder how come we (The CF) has yet to engage in a helmet modernization program like the one they have in the States? The Advanced Combat Helmet System? Where BLISS and BLU type kits have been installed and are authorized and even encouraged to be done so on the existing helmets that the troops have?

Here again is my own personal opinion with regards to why some people still prefer issued kit.

1) Exposure: they haven't used it, seen it, touched it or what ever. It comes directly from our mentality of the CF has given you all the kit you will ever need and it's great! You won't ever need anything else. It's been the mentality for the longest time and was still widely accepted even till today. It stems from bothe the garison army mentality and the fact that we have a wish to be un American.

2) Cost: as we all know cost is a major factor in non-issued kit. They are more expensive and that's mostly because of quality and durability. Obviously If you're gonna get shot or blown up no kit's gonna help you, but good kit can help you stay alive ina firefight or on a long retrograde action. Cost is prohibitive to some if not many troops, and hence they'"l use what's been issued to them with some or extensive modifications made so that it's as serviceable as possible.

The US has learned that much of their issued equipment aren't as good as some of the civi manufactured stuff, so there are 2 things that they won't bidge on, and those two things are the helmets and their IBAs. Why can't we be the same?

 

[KevinB]

If it's uncomfortable -- that's one thing. Unsafe is totally another. And, for every one of you who finds "Gucci armour XXX" "comfortable and therefore ultimately better and safer and more effective for the soldier" ... there's another soldier out there who does NOT think that about the same Gucci item. Exactly the same as CTS gear.

Okay I will offer some logic in this arena -- I will offer that as far as an PBA end user I am a SME (feel free to argue this).
Canada does not yet have a releaseable armour system.
Now for those who think this is gucci
I once attended a Naval boarding event (this was early 90's) the Naval folk had the Vietnam flack vests -- (see where I am going on this one?)
Now I dont have a clue what the NBP folk wear now - and its not really relavent to my topic -- other than getting the reader thinking about why a releaseable armor system would be nice.

*By releasable I mean one pull and it drops into different pieces - and you are free.

If you are in a vehicle roll over (and way to many of them both here in Iraq, and in Afghan) - your vehicle rolls into a drainage/irrigation canal (again more of an issue in Iraq) - without releaseable armor - your going to die upside down in the vehicle (and yes the US mil had this happen way to many times prior to getting the newer armor)  Same goes for a vehicle fire -- troops shot or otherwise injured under the armour -- the conventional armour releaseable vest that started showing up was a direct resutl of combat surgeon and medics - complaining about troops dying when they did not need too
  Now releaseable armour is not new -- the CF has been giving to SOF folk for a while, it took the US Big Army to look at the reasons that SOF was doing something to get them doing it.

A vast majority of people like to decry that people want it since XXX uses it -- well in some cases hero worship is the case.  I would say the vast majority its because an SOF looked at the Big Army issue stuff -- said this is junk for this role, and went and got Y to issue.  Now all of a sudden this Big Army unit finds itself doing urban combat, FID, SR and other "hard" SOF skill missions - and they find their kit not ideal...

  I can test gear under a given parameter to either make it pass or fail.  The question is whether or not it is a valid test.  

One question I have would be why has the CF not gotten into FR items for the basic soldiers -- many troops have suffered horrible burns due in part to the material (which dries easier) of the combat clothing.  Now I took both stats and economics at univeristy - and I can remember the factors affecting consumer recalls - was based on whether or not the expected lawsutis for negligence would outweight the costs or the recall.

I could add more and more armour to a soldier - and increase his protection level.  However will that same soldier - be able to move his/her head to keep SA...  Will he/she be able to bring their weapon to bear as easily.  Can the soldier hop a fence and run down an insurgent that just planted an IED?  The issue is one needs to have enough operational knowledge to base the trade off between mobility and armor.

I have seen people wearing arm protectors with plates in them - a neck guard that came up over their chin - leg panels with plates.

For OPSEC issues I wont blow a big hole in some other stuff.


Frostnipped Elf - the intial ACU's had problems with the ass ripping out -- it has since been fixed.  Keep in mind the US Mil is at WAR, troops in combat will wear out clothing (amongst other things) at a much fast rate than garrison.