The Military Police [MP] Superthread

[Dissident]

The company and Pl's are not perfect. We are working hard to train to the standard. Some platoons have had a longer way to go, as they had problems with troop retention. This as led to some troops being sub par in training, and that is why I believe that perticular res MP was stopped from going to Bosnia. We didnt want to send someone else overseas that was going to make us look bad. This goes towards my raising the standard and weeding out or training up the weaker elements.

Can anybody deny that the curent QL3 leaves recruits sitting idle to much? How about adding in total time of training before actually being accepted and badge? BMQ\SQ, QL3 and then the probationnary period.

My point is, the standard is not the lenght of time that you're on course. The standard is being able to demonstrate retention of the knowledge necessary to accomplish the job. All you have to accept is that it is possible to do this without going through the 6 month long QL3. Like you pointed out yourself, different municipalities have different ways of attaining that. Not everyone has the same formula. Why is it so hard to accept that the reserve can be just as proficient without going throught the exact same course?

Christ, if I could, I would take the damn course. I would go through MPAC. But its not an option, especially for most people who are students and don't have a flexible schedule.

 

[canadianblue]

Since I'm applying to college and most of the other reservists are it would be a question of time. Would the reserves have enough time to get all trained up, or is it better to just retain the status as a combat MP.

 

[Dissident]

Oh...and to throw the ball into the Reserve's court, how about you convince "us" of the requirement to have Police Ops training.  As you're trying to convince us on why this is a "good thing for the Branch" (TM), please be specific about what Police Functions you see yourself requiring training in and how that is applicable to how you envision the Reserve MPs supporting us here in Canada and overseas.  Also please detail if/how you are going to comply with the MP Code of Conduct as well as if/how you will be overseen by the Military Police Complaints Commission.

The requirement is there because there will always be a time when reservist will be needed to fill in and augment reg force units. Maybe right at the moment you don't need us, but it wasnt too long ago that you did. Not having the reserve ready to do the job is very shortsighted.

As far as police ops, the main one is use of force, isn't it? Traffic accident investigation, crime scene prevention, maybe witness depositions, more on the NDA, QR&O's. Thats all I can come up with, theres more but I am not familliar with the whole spectrum just yet.

Maybe all this, and more, would allow us to have credentials, maybe not. But it would for sure help us suppport the regs better when deployed, and even in canada. It would make us usefull partners, instead of being a body, or a sandbag if you will.

The best way to support the reg's, IMHO, is to be an effective jeep team partner. Someone who knows what to do, when to do it and when not to do it. Someone who knows what he is and not allowed to do. Someone smart enough not to pull rank when his subordinate is more qualified and has more experience, regs or res.

Maybe have a regular plan, where the most suitable res MP are sent to the garrison MP's on week ends. Even if they do nothing, they could learn how to interract and how they work. By being more patient with the reseve MP, the regs have a lot to gain, even on the short term. Or at least some sort of interaction on a regular basis, to help keep up whatever training we get. I don't know, maybe thats me.

Finally, I don't see why we shouldn't be upheald to the MP code of conduct. For a while I thought we were. I was wrong. But we wear the same red beret, we are just as big a target/representative. I am fully commited to my responsabilities and I am willing to submit myself to all the obligations attached to it, while in uniform or not. The people I want serving alongside of me would not have an issue doing the same.

 

[S McKee]

Can anybody deny that the curent QL3 leaves recruits sitting idle to much? How about adding in total time of training before actually being accepted and badge? BMQ\SQ, QL3 and then the probationnary period.

My point is, the standard is not the lenght of time that you're on course. The standard is being able to demonstrate retention of the knowledge necessary to accomplish the job. All you have to accept is that it is possible to do this without going through the 6 month long QL3. Like you pointed out yourself, different municipalities have different ways of attaining that. Not everyone has the same formula. Why is it so hard to accept that the reserve can be just as proficient without going throught the exact same course?

Christ, if I could, I would take the darn course. I would go through MPAC. But its not an option, especially for most people who are students and don't have a flexible schedule.
Good Lord where do I start? How about with all that pesky training time and that probationary period...what up with that? What police force does that? So we should give all the "smart" Res MP a bye on all that training and probation because...? How do we determine who the "smart" ones are? Oh rights it's the guys who can't do the training because their students.


As far as police ops, the main one is use of force, isn't it? Traffic accident investigation, crime scene prevention, maybe witness depositions, more on the NDA, QR&O's. Thats all I can come up with, theres more but I am not familliar with the whole spectrum just yet.

Maybe all this, and more, would allow us to have credentials, maybe not. But it would for sure help us suppport the regs better when deployed, and even in canada. It would make us usefull partners, instead of being a body, or a sandbag if you will.

The best way to support the reg's, IMHO, is to be an effective jeep team partner. Someone who knows what to do, when to do it and when not to do it. Someone who knows what he is and not allowed to do. Someone smart enough not to pull rank when his subordinate is more qualified and has more experience, regs or res.
If all I needed in a jeep team partner was "someone who knows what to do, when to do it and when not to do it....." and all the rest of that jibber jabber I'll take my cat.  I don't need a sandbag as you put it sitting next to me I need a POLICEMAN. In order to be a POLICEMAN you need to have POLICE skills. Lets look at the simple traffic accident you eluded too. First if it's a fatal you have to protect the scene, that's a learned POLICE SKILL. Then you have to properly collect evidence, maintain continuity over that evidence, and properly store that evidence, a POLICE SKILL. If alcohol was involved you may have to get a warrant for a blood sample which requires, you guessed it, POLICE SKILLS. Then you may want to take witness statements and believe you me I'm not letting some weekend warrior to that. Then there's that whole subject interview thingy with rights and cautions and lawyers, gotta be cop to do that. Then if you are overseas you will have to interact with the local constabulary, believe me a badge and police ID helps when you are trying to pry reports out of them.

So I'll put this all in one great big package. To properly do all this policey type of stuff  and if you want to called a policeman you first have to go on a crse and be tested,(that's six months). Then you have to go through a probationary period so the rest your fellow policemen and your boss can be sure that you are competent enough to do the job (that's one year, it's called pep). Then you have to be subject to a code of ethics so in th eyes of your fellow servicemen and the public your profession is seen to have credibility. Because my reserve friend when the commander at home or in the field has a problem that needs an MP he doesn't give a rat's ass  if you can sign route or cook IMPs or drive a jeep, or shine a shovel, he wants you to solve a crime. THAT is your job and THAT is the skill (along with your soldier skills) you must have. 

 

[Dissident]

How about with all that pesky training time and that probationary period...what up with that? What police force does that? So we should give all the "smart" Res MP a bye on all that training and probation because...?

Smart ass comments asside, I am sure we can have the same training, it just wont be over the same time frame. The probationnary period is another matter. but then, what about the ones that don't make it through PEP , or the ones that are sent to field platoons for extended periods? Do they get less of a status when they go overseas? Are they just not sent overseas? No they don't, not the field platoon people anyway. How can you be so sure of their professionnal competence. You just accept it.

...

Allright, so what would be the difference if we got the police training? You said: police training=policeskills=policemen. Maybe we wouldnt practice it as much, and I admit that would be a big factor, would we be good enough for you? Oh, what about all the reserve guys that are civi cops, or corrections agents, sherrifs and the like? What do you make of them? Most of them see action and get experience that the regs would kill for.

Thats what I am fighting for. I want the training(and reg force cooperation). You can be as beligerent and nasty as you want. We are here to stay. You need us. You can help us be better partners or you can stonewall and be stuck with morons.

If you give us the training, I bet we can be just as good or better than the regs. Thats what scares you, isn't it? Give me half the training time, double the scrutiny and none of the support. I'll still make it.

You can sit back and say we will never be good enough. I answer: give me a chance, I'll be the best partner you'll ever have.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Gentlemen, keep this thread civil....make this a "us vs them" thread and I will lock it down, which would be a shame, it has been most enlightning.

 

[Dissident]

You may not know but is there a plan in place to quailify all Militia MP to QL3B standards?  Also, any news on who is going to teach it?

Yes, we are supposed to go throught a conversion course, from Pte to CWO. I could speculate as to whom might teach it, but I do not know.

 

[Kurhaus]

As there have been alot of posts (almost too many to read   at times) on this thread about Res MP Training, can someone bring me up to speed (MacDonald's express version is OK) on where the problems with training the Res MP mostly revolve around.   I have worked with many Res MP's over the past 14 years and their problems seem to vary from unit to unit. (i.e troop retention, money, training time period, etc).   One of the main problems that seems to be a common denominator is their civilian employer not supporting their reserve employment.  

I believe the US has a system in place where the reserves are guaranteed their jobs, so they are free to deploy on exercises/tours.   (Not really sure, comments?)

I am a Reg F MP with 24 years of service (10 Infantry, 14 MP), so I am rather a newbie when it comes to the reserve world.

Securitas        

 

[Dissident]

The reserve courses for the last 10 years had no law enforcement in it. They had security duties( DCAAR'S ISDR), Mobility support and PW handling.

From this year on, reserve MP courses will have an equal time law enforcement/use of force versus everything else. Only QL3 has been written so far. QL3A will be the field part(22days, I think) and QL3B will be the law enforcement part(another 22 days, I believe). QL5 should recieve the same treatment, but has yet to be written. Its not much, but its a start.

The bone of contention is that the army reserve is not willing to put its member through the 6 month long QL3, for various reasons. One of which is, even after doing the course, a reg force member still has to go through a 1 year in PEP. Something that would be impractical for reserve and unwelcome by reg force. Without the year in PEP, it is no yet possible to get credential and status as either a peace officer or a MP uder 156.

And members with MP and peace officer status seem to be the only thing acceptable to reg force MP's to serve along side them. Nothing else is respected or even accepted.

edit: And thats the part that I don't understand. For sure, its better to have a reg force MP than a reserve one. But when thats not possible, what is so wrong with having one that might not have the credentials, but has almost the same training? You don't need 2 badged MP's to arrest someone. One MP with credentials is enough.

In my world, a reserve MP should be able to assist seemlessly a reg force MP enforcing his authority. While not allowed to arrest someone, we should be able to effect the arrest, ie handcuffing, searches, handling etc. We should have the same knowledge as a reg does, we would just be lacking in experience and credential.

In the end, I want to be trusted. If you can't trust your (fire/jeep)team partner, who can you trust? Thats why I want the training, but could care less about the credentials.

 

[S McKee]

The reserve courses for the last 10 years had no law enforcement in it. They had security duties( DCAAR'S ISDR), Mobility support and PW handling.

From this year on, reserve MP courses will have an equal time law enforcement/use of force versus everything else. Only QL3 has been written so far. QL3A will be the field part(22days, I think) and QL3B will be the law enforcement part(another 22 days, I believe). QL5 should recieve the same treatment, but has yet to be written. Its not much, but its a start.

The bone of contention is that the army reserve is not willing to put its member through the 6 month long QL3, for various reasons. One of which is, even after doing the course, a reg force member still has to go through a 1 year in PEP. Something that would be impractical for reserve and unwelcome by reg force. Without the year in PEP, it is no yet possible to get credential and status as either a peace officer or a MP uder 156.

And members with MP and peace officer status seem to be the only thing acceptable to reg force MP's to serve along side them. Nothing else is respected or even accepted.

OK Dissident I'll be more civil in this responce. First I don't have a personal grudge against Res, I used to be in the Res Inf. Secondly my frustration should be directed to the Officers in this branch who have let your organization slide, not you, as you obviously have a great desire to learn as much as you can and get out there and do your thing. However, I'll let you in on a little secret...not all of your reg force counterparts have it together. We have guardhouses full of PEPs and because of piss poor planning there are Cpls overseeing PEPS who have no idea what their doing. Read some of the branch technical directives that come out and you'll see that not all is rosy. The last one I read spoke to major problems with AV interviews (basic cop stuff). My point is this; if we have problems with the "trained" guys (and believe me outside the NIS I wouldn't let many of these young guys and even some of the older ones who have been out of it for awhile roam around without a tight leash)  I have even less confidence in a part-timer. I've worked both sides of the street civi and military and just because a guys a full time cop on the outside doesn't count for much either, if he's spent his whole career in traffic.
Remember when we screw up we just don't up before the old man for "a blast" they can conduct a Parliamentary Inquiry.

 

[Stirling N6123]

Good day, new to the site, wanted to find out some info on my current situation and was told this site might be a good place to start.

I submitted an application to CFRC Kingston August 13th for 3 Airforce trades, Aircraft tech, 514, ATIS, and the last one was a Traffic tech, well 6 months has come and gone with no word from the Recruiting center. Yes I should have called. But when I went into the office, I handed in the application and the SGT. told me about military police as a side note, I said then I was not interested not having the post secondary education, but he gave me the info anyway, and he kinda struck a chord with me. I went home, and gave it some serious thought.

So, right now, I am enrolled, Part-time(as I have a family to look after and the full time job has priority) in Police Foundaions with Loyalist College. And I have not really intended to follow up on my application as I am wanting to do military police. First, Does the application sit around gathering dust? Or would they bin it after a few months? And military police, will they still be looking for meatheads 3 years from now? Any Projections? Also, I am 31, will be 34 by the time I receive a Police Foundations Diploma. I am in top shape, never has been an issue. So before anybody gives me a hard time about going against 20 year olds, you needn't bother.

So should I call the recruiter up, let them know my intentions? Or will they (maybe they have already) trash my current application? Is the Policing trade gonna still be open a few years from now? (if you know that answer, can you pick me out next weeks 649 numbers too) But an educated guess would not hurt.

Thanks much.

 

[Poppa]

Alot of the stuff we seem to be disagreeing on are the same thing.
Once I've had some sleep time (getting old) I'll try to post something that sounds intellegent. Or, if someone has a specific question ask and I'll try to answer as a hardcorps PRes member who has his own ideas of what we should do.

Night

 

[S McKee]

Looking forward to more debate! J

 

[MILPO]

My point is, the standard is not the lenght of time that you're on course. The standard is being able to demonstrate retention of the knowledge necessary to accomplish the job. All you have to accept is that it is possible to do this without going through the 6 month long QL3. Like you pointed out yourself, different municipalities have different ways of attaining that. Not everyone has the same formula. Why is it so hard to accept that the reserve can be just as proficient without going throught the exact same course?

Christ, if I could, I would take the darn course. I would go through MPAC. But its not an option, especially for most people who are students and don't have a flexible schedule.

Your right about that...for example the Ontario Police College is 13 weeks long from start to finish.  Most police services run their own in-house training before and after the police college and basically tell you to forget all that you have learned and to do it their way......it's up to the individual to learn and retain this info and I don't believe it is a reflection on the training.

From what i've been seeing on this forum about the reserve MP's is that, and correct me if i'm wrong, they seem to be looked upon as what civi. officers may perceive their auxilary officers as...that they are not provided with adequate enough training to fulfill a support role.  Aux. officers receive inhouse training as well, probably less to the extent to what res. MP's are trained and the fact reserves receive bmq training would be seen as a bonus on top of the QL3 training, acheiving some level of discipline not seen in the civi. field.

Regs and res. should work together and respect the duties and roles they fill.  Personally, I had no idea that there was this much debate over this subject before coming to this forum.  We all do the jobs we do for our own reasons and hopefully the differences can be worked out and the training for reserves can be made more in depth and to the extent of reg . force and the reg. force can appreciate the extra help, which i'm sure they do!

Just my .02 cents....

 

[canadianblue]

Well, from what I've heard the reserve MP's primary role is that of a combat MP. So basically route recce, POW detention, refugee handling, etc. As far as I'm concerned I don't have much of a problem with that. I would like to work alongside the Regular force MP's, but if I don't have the necessary training then it is understandable. Right now I have two choices for the reserves, first choice is MP, second is Infantry, I would be more than happy doing anyone. :warstory:

 

[garb811]

Gentlemen, keep this thread civil....make this a "us vs them" thread and I will lock it down, which would be a shame, it has been most enlightning.

A non-MP has made it through 6? pages of this stuff?   You, sir, are a glutton for punishment.    ;D

 

[Lawrence]

I've worked both sides of the street civi and military and just because a guys a full time cop on the outside doesn't count for much either, if he's spent his whole career in traffic.

Woah that wasn't just a shot at us traffic junkies was it

But seriously even though Ive had limited experience in the CF (4 years MP Res) I want to put my $.02 in.  First off a background on myself.  I finished my policing diploma two years ago have worked for UofA 5-0 and West Edmonton Mall Security(Ha ya I'm a rent a cop but you should see the fun the bars bring me).  Anyways long story short my goal in life is to be a member of the Edmonton Police Service.  Actually I just want to be a cop....quite frankly I'm getting to the point in the game where I'll go anywhere. 

I have asked several times for a Reg force QL3 course, and every time I've been told "no" as a Reservist we cant go on that course.  I then talk with some people at the school when I go down for courses and I'm told that every course has a billet for at least 1 Res MP but we never fill them.  Why don't we start filling these spots? I think that ultimately this would be the best route to go to bridge the gap between Reg and Res.  Either that or turn us completely into an auxiliary type police force.  Make potential recruits go through the guardhouse at the base for recruiting and only have a certain number of spots.  I would also like to see the Reg Force take over the Res Training so that they can train us to a standard they want.  Lets be serious how much training do most RCMP Aux Cst have?  I'm sure that by the time you include BMQ/SQ/QL3 you would have blown the RC's training time out of the water. 

Biggest problem with that is there has been a lack of understanding of the MP trade from Recruiters in the last several years.  I know some Res MP's are there just because their Recruiter said it would fit them.  These people have NO intrest in Law enforcement or doing anything of that nature.  I think that these cases should be made to remuster as frankly I just don't trust a lot of them.....well anywhere.

In conclusion, Res MP's as Aux type people...good, Res MP's as the slow little brother who always wants to come out and play...bad.  The branch needs to set a definite goal on what they want to do with us and decide how they are going to get that done.

 

[garb811]

This as led to some troops being sub par in training, and that is why I believe that perticular res MP was stopped from going to Bosnia. We didnt want to send someone else overseas that was going to make us look bad. This goes towards my raising the standard and weeding out or training up the weaker elements.

Sorry if I sound confused and slightly astonished here but are you admitting that when your Coy ran it's own QL3 that they passed people who did not meet the standard?  Also, I'm really, really unsure of how this person was going to make the Res MP look bad, even if their ability to perform certain MP specific tasks were considered below par.  There was one criteria required for this position, and that was fluency in Serbo-Croat and that person fit the bill.  This was a win-win situation for everyone involved as it was an opportunity to get a Res MP into contact with the CI world which is probably never going to come along again and it would have given the CI guys the opportunity to "showcase" another part of our trade to the Res world.  I can only guess what the real reason was but the end result was an Infantryman was used instead and a golden opportunity was lost.

Can anybody deny that the curent QL3 leaves recruits sitting idle to much?

I don't know to be honest, how long were they actually sitting around with a bit more precision than "lots"?   I have some ideas on why this might have been occuring but until I know more I won't speculate.

How about adding in total time of training before actually being accepted and badge? BMQ\SQ, QL3 and then the probationnary period.

How is this time spent on BMQ and SQ relevant to this?

My point is, the standard is not the lenght of time that you're on course. The standard is being able to demonstrate retention of the knowledge necessary to accomplish the job. All you have to accept is that it is possible to do this without going through the 6 month long QL3.

From the Oxford Dictionary:  "Standard - A definite level of excellence, attainment, wealth, or the like, or a definite degree of any quality, viewed as a prescribed object of endeavour or as the measure of what is adequate for some purpose."  In this instance the standard IS the 6 month long QL3.

Like you pointed out yourself, different municipalities have different ways of attaining that. Not everyone has the same formula.

But I gurantee you that any recruit they accept within a given period of time will complete the training to the same standard.  

Why is it so hard to accept that the reserve can be just as proficient without going throught the exact same course?

If this was true, don't you think we would have shortened our QL3 by half?  Especially back when we were so far below the PML we were paying people to get back in?  You might be interested to know that unlike most Police forces, our training was subject to extensive independent scrutiny via the Dickson and Belzile reviews.

But we wear the same red beret, we are just as big a target/representative.

This is a subject for a conversation all it's own.

The probationnary period is another matter. but then, what about the ones that don't make it through PEP , or the ones that are sent to field platoons for extended periods? Do they get less of a status when they go overseas? Are they just not sent overseas? No they don't, not the field platoon people anyway. How can you be so sure of their professionnal competence.

Woah...you lost me here, what's the question(s) or point(s)?

The bone of contention is that the army reserve is not willing to put its member through the 6 month long QL3, for various reasons. One of which is, even after doing the course, a reg force member still has to go through a 1 year in PEP. Something that would be impractical for reserve and unwelcome by reg force. Without the year in PEP, it is no yet possible to get credential and status as either a peace officer or a MP uder 156.

Actually, your doing so would be more than welcomed by me at least.  By the way, you are normally appointed "Military Police" and receive your credentials immediately upon completion of the QL3.

And members with MP and peace officer status seem to be the only thing acceptable to reg force MP's to serve along side them. Nothing else is respected or even accepted.

Only when you desire to fulfil the Police Ops function.  You want to come out Rte signing, doing some TC and sitting at Gate W7A doing access control I'm more than happy to have you along.

In my world, a reserve MP should be able to assist seemlessly a reg force MP enforcing his authority. While not allowed to arrest someone, we should be able to effect the arrest, ie handcuffing, searches, handling etc.

And who then is legally responsible if something goes wrong while doing said handcuffing, searching and "handling"?  Please do some research on this one before answering.

In the end, I want to be trusted. If you can't trust your (fire/jeep)team partner, who can you trust? Thats why I want the training, but could care less about the credentials.

Who says we don't trust you?  I'll be quite frank, I would be more wary of a partially trained Reservist than one who had no training at all.

Personally, I had no idea that there was this much debate over this subject before coming to this forum.

Unfortunately on this specific topic what you're seeing here is an anomoly.  It does remind me of the ol' days in the T-Bird though.

I then talk with some people at the school when I go down for courses and I'm told that every course has a billet for at least 1 Res MP but we never fill them.  Why don't we start filling these spots?

If I'm not mistaken, these may be ARAF spots.

While the idea of an "auxiliary MP" may seem appealing and may be workable in some situations in Canada, it doesn't solve the issue of what to do with Reserve MPs who go overseas.   As I stated before, there are some specific instances when they are employable without impacting on the Reg Force MPs but once you push them into positions other than those, it becomes a problem.   As soon as the position becomes one where Police Ops are conducted you need someone with Sec 156 and in case you're wondering, NDHQ doesn't look at it and go "OK, we need 15 MPs to do these tasks but we'll bump that number up to 18-19 so they can add 3-4 reservists to meet the 20-25% quota".   Each tour has a strictly controlled maximum manning level which cannot be exceeded and these positions are fought over quite intensely so even if the desire was there to add some â Å“freebieâ ? MP positions it's just not going to happen.   So now I'm wondering, how are these 3-4 Res MPs â Å“helping us outâ ??  

EDIT:  Deleted a bunch of bumf that I was using to illustrate the a/m but which, in hindsight, didn't really contribute to the discussion at hand.

 

[Poppa]

Crap..took to long to post and I lost probably the best post I've ever written
I'll try to regroup and put it up later.

 

[garb811]

Call the CFRC and tell them of your decision, if nothing else this is simple courtesy.   Not being with a CFRC I can only assume they will close your file and tell you to come back down when you have the pre-req at which time they will start fresh.

Will the MP trade be open in 3 years?   If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on it.

As for age, we've had some mid-late 30's guys go through with little problem and if I'm not mistaken an ex-Reg Force Sgt who had transfered to the Reserves went back through his QL3 in the last year or two and my guess would be that if he wasn't over 40 he was pushing it.