The Military Police [MP] Superthread

[S McKee]

I was talking to a member of the Loyal Edmonton Regiment, and I told that member that I was applying to the military police. His response was, why in the heck would you ever want to get into that! The reasoning was that in his experience the reserve MP's only set up signs around base, and all the fulltime MP's ever did was "dick around in their patrol cars and set up speed traps all day". I think that perhaps the attitude of the entire Canadian Forces has to change towards the military police.

First I wouldn't listen to the opinions of some infantry militia mbr on the role and function of MP. Having said that, unfortunately that seems to be prevailing attitude of the vast majority of CF mbrs especially the rank and file. And it's do to ignorance more than anything else. While Res MP are not "police officers" Reg force MP are, there is a vast difference between the two and this is where some people get confused. What most people do not realize is that we (Reg Force MP) ARE trained to and in some cases a higher standard than our civilian counterparts. In fact the branch has a WO as a full time instructor with the RCMP Academy in Regina teaching RCMP recruits. Moreover, all of the NIS Dets have secondment positions with RCMP GIS or Major Crimes units throughout Canada. The MP has an oversight body (like the civilian police) and a code of ethics which we must abide by. Hope this helps. J

 

[MILPO]

First I wouldn't listen to the opinions of some infantry militia mbr on the role and function of MP. Having said that, unfortunately that seems to be prevailing attitude of the vast majority of CF mbrs especially the rank and file. And it's do to ignorance more than anything else. While Res MP are not "police officers" Reg force MP are, there is a vast difference between the two and this is where some people get confused. What most people do not realize is that we (Reg Force MP) ARE trained to and in some cases a higher standard than our civilian counterparts. In fact the branch has a WO as a full time instructor with the RCMP Academy in Regina teaching RCMP recruits. Moreover, all of the NIS Dets have secondment positions with RCMP GIS or Major Crimes units throughout Canada. The MP has an oversight body (like the civilian police) and a code of ethics which we must abide by. Hope this helps. J

MP's also get the same training for specialized courses that their civilian counterparts get, from OPC, CPC and so on....  CF members should feel safe and confident in having a specialized police service that is trained specifically for their needs and not having civi. services deal with issues that they are not trained for.

 

[Dissident]

Allright there MP 00161, you almost drowned me.

Your argument sounds almost word for word what a reg force SGT was telling me during prairy ram 04. Throw in professionnalism here and there and you have it.

Between you and me the reg force QL3 is bloated. What you do in 6 months can be acheive in half the time. No, I never took the course myself, but I do have a few friends that did. With recruits spending half their day under the nice Borden sunshine(diong nothing), its not hard to see how the course can be done, while keeping the same standard, in half the time or less. Oh my god! how can I say such horrible things? 3 training months for a peace officer!? Thats ridiculous. Well actually thats allready more then most police force out there. And thats without adding in basic training. So your own self imposed standard is poppycock. Its an excuse, as simple as that.

You can come up with all the negativism you want. You need the reserve. You're having a hard time finding people to send overseas, problably cause no one wants to get pulled away from their cushy garrisson postings. You can sit back, find all the excuses and reasons why reserve will never be as good as the reg force. Chances are we will never be, overall. Rare are the reserve trades that are on par with the reg ones, especially in CS. But instead of putting so much energy into not letting us help you, how about finding some comon ground?

I for one would be in favor of raising the bar for recruiting res MP's. Make our standards just as high as the regs recruiting standards. And making sure reservist learn how to be flexible. Or at least doing some sort of screaning process once inside, very thouroughly, to find out who's a sand bag and who you can trust.

 

[canadianblue]

I for one would be in favor of raising the bar for recruiting res MP's. Make our standards just as high as the regs recruiting standards. And making sure reservist learn how to be flexible. Or at least doing some sort of screaning process once inside, very thouroughly, to find out who's a sand bag and who you can trust.

So are you then in favor of reserve MP's having full fledged law enforcement duties. As for the screening process, I nearly have all of my paperwork done, just have to get the full name's of all my supervisors. But I don't think that the bar should be raised since I will probably not be doing any law enforcment related duties. However I think it would be nice to act akin to auxilary officers for the regular force MP's.

 

[Dissident]

Oh, and what are you reffering too when you say that PRes MP's were use in a capacity that they were not trained or mandated for? Any examples? I have not done, or heard of anyone doing, anything outside the perview of their training.

 

[Dissident]

No, I am not interrested in doing full law enforcement as part of the reserve. I just think that being treated like retarded cousins by the regs is very counter productive.

I don't want a badge. I don't want peace officer status. But both are unecessary for overseas deployement police duties. I do want training and capabilities reg force MP's can count on. Which is as much a problem beacuse of our training and their contemp.

And as far as being auxiliary peace officers, that would be along the lines of what I think. But that does intail a bit of a higher standard from the recruits and of the testing.

 

[S McKee]

No, I am not interrested in doing full law enforcement as part of the reserve. I just think that being treated like retarded cousins by the regs is very counter productive.

I don't want a badge. I don't want peace officer status. But both are unecessary for overseas deployement police duties. I do want training and capabilities reg force MP's can count on. Which is as much a problem beacuse of our training and their contemp.

And as far as being auxiliary peace officers, that would be along the lines of what I think. But that does intail a bit of a higher standard from the recruits and of the testing.

Dissident maybe you can explain to me what the difference is between "overseas deployment police duties" and domestic police duties? Because once the troops are in place, once the road moves are done etc. you start policing i.e. law enforcement.  How can you do that with out peace officer status?

 

[JIMBOBAL]

hi jumper being a member of the reserves who has served overseas you do not require peace officer status to arrest or detain on DND property as long as you have the appointment as a security guard in which case a reserve mp is classed as a security guard we work alongside our regular force counterparts and do the job. some aspects of the military police trade mostly the field duties are learned and mastered by the reserves moreso then the reg force because we are doing it all the time were reg force learns it on there 3's course and never touchs it again unless posted to a field platoon. and i must say the field platoons do a excellent job at the field work. so as you might beable to see now the reserves and the reg force in this trade need each other to Babel to function as a whole i learned alot from the regforce during my tour and i hope that i was able to pass some things on to them as well. all in all ONE TRADE ONE TASK

 

[Kurhaus]

The army needs to adopt something similar to the Air Force ARAF MP concept.  

The ARAF MP's are trained to the same level as their Reg Force counter parts (many pers are Ex Reg Force MP), carry badges and hold the same powers of arrest under NDA Section 156.   The badges and powers only come into effect while on duty and unlike their Reg Force counters parts (at 17 Wing anyway) had to leave their credentials at work when off duty.  

One draw back was that the ARAF MP's could only be employed for a limited time period every month depending on their class of service.  

Like it or not, (IMO) the militia MP's play an important part on deployed ops as the assistance they provide to the Reg Force MP's is invaluable.

Having Res MP's in my Det during Bosnia Roto 12 provided greater flexability, allowing the Reg Force MP's to be deployed to different incidents simultaneously (1 X Reg and 1 X Res jeep teams). The Reg MP's were responsible for the file, however, the Res MP provided an extra pair of hands, security and some valued experience from previous Roto's (were my Reg F MP's were on their first tour).

After all the role of the Military Police (short version) "is to provide security and police support to commanders".  

Operational deployments are our bread and butter.   The police support provided at the base level in Canada is only continuous training for future ops.

With or without powers of arrest, the Res are needed.

 

[canadianblue]

I'm just wondering, would you MP's reccomend applying for a reserve MP position if your goal is to become a regular force MP. Or would it not matter in the long run when applying to the Military Police whether the reserve position was with the infantry, armoured, medics, etc.

 

[Dissident]

Like Jimbobal said, you don't need peace officer status overseas. Your police officers badge means nothing outside of canada anyway, aside maybe for professionnal courtesy. Thats why the badge doenst matter to me. All I want is training. Really, you could have any trade enforcing base policies overseas. Its just counter productive to take someone away from what may be a valuable trade/occupation, and put him into a job where he has no training. If you take a reserve MP and send him to augment the regs, you have the double benefit of not bothering someone else with a job they probably don't want and having someone that has at least some training(and hopefully some better training from now on).

If you want to join reg force, it is better for you to join the reserve MP than other trades. As a reserve, I work with reg force once or twice a year. Its a good way to see what they are like, what they do and so on.

 

[garb811]

Your argument sounds almost word for word what a reg force SGT was telling me during prairy ram 04. Throw in professionnalism here and there and you have it.

Interesting that two different people would say almost the exact same thing, no?   It should give you an indication of the concern with which we, the direct supervisors in the trade view the current situation.   In case you are wondering, no I was not at Prairie Ram 04 but I know who it was you spoke to.  

Between you and me the reg force QL3 is bloated. What you do in 6 months can be acheive in half the time. No, I never took the course myself, but I do have a few friends that did. With recruits spending half their day under the nice Borden sunshine(diong nothing), its not hard to see how the course can be done, while keeping the same standard, in half the time or less. Oh my god! how can I say such horrible things? 3 training months for a peace officer!? Thats ridiculous. Well actually thats allready more then most police force out there. And thats without adding in basic training. So your own self imposed standard is poppycock. Its an excuse, as simple as that.

OK, lets look at this a little more in depth shall we?   A quick survey of training times posted on the web shows the following:   OPP â “ 17 weeks;   Toronto â “ 19 weeks; RCMP â “ 24 weeks; BC â “ 22 weeks (not counting the 13-17 week at the home Service portion); Edmonton â “ 35 weeks; Halifax â “ 40 weeks; Saskatchewan â “ 18 weeks; Winnipeg â “ 37 weeks for an average of 26.5 weeks.   I think this is a pretty fair representation of most of the "major" police services out there, feel free to rebut with your extensive list of "most police force out there" which, if I'm reading your contention correctly, have an initial training period of LESS than 3 months to reach sworn status.

You need the reserve. You're having a hard time finding people to send overseas, problably cause no one wants to get pulled away from their cushy garrisson postings.

While you're partially right in that there were some difficulties filling positions for a period when the Branch was severely below PML, this is no longer the case and Reg Force Cpls are being left behind in order to allow the Reserves to fill 20-25% of the TO&E.   As for "cushy garrisson" postings, I wouldn't know as I don't know any MPs who have ever been posted to a garrisson.

hi jumper being a member of the reserves who has served overseas you do not require peace officer status to arrest or detain on DND property as long as you have the appointment as a security guard in which case a reserve mp is classed as a security guard we work alongside our regular force counterparts and do the job.

Uhh...you have a very serious misunderstanding of what being appointed as a "security guard" allows you to do and you need to read these ASAP before you get yourself into very deep water, and I'm not saying this to be facetious.   DCAARs and ISDRs.   While you're at it, please point out to me where these two Regulations give you any kind of authority overseas, even if you're appointed as a "security guard".

some aspects of the military police trade mostly the field duties are learned and mastered by the reserves moreso then the reg force because we are doing it all the time were reg force learns it on there 3's course and never touchs it again unless posted to a field platoon.

And this is what is going to happen to any "police skills" you are taught.   You will do it on your 3Bs and then most likely ever do it again.

ONE TRADE ONE TASK

How about ONE TRADE, ONE TASK, ONE STANDARD?

The army needs to adopt something similar to the Air Force ARAF MP concept.

Agreed but there are "issues" surrounding this, not the least of which is the refusal to meet the Reg Force training standard.

Like it or not, (IMO) the militia MP's play an important part on deployed ops as the assistance they provide to the Reg Force MP's is invaluable. Having Res MP's in my Det during Bosnia Roto 12 provided greater flexability, allowing the Reg Force MP's to be deployed to different incidents simultaneously (1 X Reg and 1 X Res jeep teams). The Reg MP's were responsible for the file, however, the Res MP provided an extra pair of hands, security and some valued experience from previous Roto's (were my Reg F MP's were on their first tour).

How did having non-credentialed Reservists provide more flexibility than having either a credentialed Reservist or a Reg Force MP in that position instead?

Like Jimbobal said, you don't need peace officer status overseas.

You're right and I believe Jumper may have mispoke in this instance.   You DO need the authority provided under Sec 156 of the NDA though.

Your police officers badge means nothing outside of canada anyway, aside maybe for professionnal courtesy.

Actually, it does.   It, and my Military Police Identification Card, are the credentials which identify me as being appointed "Military Police" under Sec 156 of the NDA and it is the visible symbol of the authority derived from that appointment.

All I want is training.

Ahh...the crux of the matter!   But what good is having the training if you have no authority to use it?

Really, you could have any trade enforcing base policies overseas.

You're absolutely right!   We can also have any trade enforcing base policies in Canada as well...they're called the Duty Officer, the Duty Sgt...oh, and the entire Chain of Command.

Its just counter productive to take someone away from what may be a valuable trade/occupation, and put him into a job where he has no training.

It's also counter productive to leave a trained body in Canada to fill the position with someone who has no training simply to fulfil a political aim.

I just think that being treated like retarded cousins by the regs is very counter productive.

Puleeze, we don't do that, that is so non-SHARP.   We prefer to think of you as our whinny little brother who keeps wanting to tag along when we go out to play.    

I don't want a badge. I don't want peace officer status. But both are unecessary for overseas deployement police duties. But both are unecessary for overseas deployement police duties.

Again, don't confuse peace officer status with having the authority to conduct police duties.

Which is as much a problem beacuse of our training and their contemp.

I think you're confusing contempt with a legitimate concern about credibility in the conduct of the Police function.   Of course, it could simply be the case that us Reg Force MPs are all inovlved in a plot to keep the poor reservists down and in their place...

BTW, if you do want to get any kind of respect from those of us who have thought about, discussed, researched and observed the current problems at least take the time to do some basic research prior to throwing around a bunch of half truths and misconceptions.   If you'd like I can provide some particularly useful links to start.

 

[garb811]

Oh...and to throw the ball into the Reserve's court, how about you convince "us" of the requirement to have Police Ops training.  As you're trying to convince us on why this is a "good thing for the Branch" (TM), please be specific about what Police Functions you see yourself requiring training in and how that is applicable to how you envision the Reserve MPs supporting us here in Canada and overseas.  Also please detail if/how you are going to comply with the MP Code of Conduct as well as if/how you will be overseen by the Military Police Complaints Commission.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Poppa]

Of course, it could simply be the case that us Reg Force MPs are all inovlved in a plot to keep the poor reservists down and in their place...

I knew it.

You got to him before I could and probably said it better than I could have. We have issues but this is no way to solve them.
A clear and defined role is wher we need to start in order to get this mess sorted.
Once we know what we have to do we can go about trg. as we all know trg is command driven and we need a more concrete display of leadership from the 14th floor

 

[Poppa]

Oh...and to throw the ball into the Reserve's court, how about you convince "us" of the requirement to have Police Ops training. As you're trying to convince us on why this is a "good thing for the Branch" (TM), please be specific about what Police Functions you see yourself requiring training in and how that is applicable to how you envision the Reserve MPs supporting us here in Canada and overseas. Also please detail if/how you are going to comply with the MP Code of Conduct as well as if/how you will be overseen by the Military Police Complaints Commission.

Thanks in advance!

I'll try. Keep in mind this is only not so humble opinion.
For Police type trg I want to see us do accident investigation. The majority of issues we dealt with in Bosnia were TA's. We'd have to get some use of force trg to provide commonality of equipment ie Sigs etc...
Another thing I'd like to see would be how to secure a crime scene. I realize we don't have the time to either learn invest or keep up the skill set but by giving us the basic knowledge so we don't contaminate a crime scene would be a good step.
I was talking to a good friend of mine who is in the reg force (don't tell anyone or they'll revoke my membership in the reg meathead haters club ) and he brought up an interesting point.
When he goes out in his CI role overseas they need another couiple of pers with him to provide protection. We could do that. If you want PM me and I'll spell it out in more deatil.

As for the code of conduct...I don't know how we'd solve that. Can we be subject to the code when the level of trg isn't up to par? Would we be only half as culpable?

I'd like to hear anyother POVs from fellow toon meatheads

cheers

 

[Kurhaus]

How did having non-credentialed Reservists provide more flexibility than having either a credentialed Reservist or a Reg Force MP in that position instead?

The Res/Reg jeep team provided more flexibility within the section for that particular Roto.  Given the choice we would have gladly traded them for a badged MP.  However, the manning for ops is done at a much higher pay grade than mine.  As NCO's, we have to work with the tools we are given.

All said and done, the experience provided by the Res MP's (from previous Rotos) complemented nicely with badged Reg F MP's on their first tour.

 

[MILPO]

I'll try. Keep in mind this is only not so humble opinion.
For Police type trg I want to see us do accident investigation. The majority of issues we dealt with in Bosnia were TA's. We'd have to get some use of force trg to provide commonality of equipment ie Sigs etc...
Another thing I'd like to see would be how to secure a crime scene. I realize we don't have the time to either learn invest or keep up the skill set but by giving us the basic knowledge so we don't contaminate a crime scene would be a good step.
I was talking to a good friend of mine who is in the reg force (don't tell anyone or they'll revoke my membership in the reg meathead haters club ) and he brought up an interesting point.
When he goes out in his CI role overseas they need another couiple of pers with him to provide protection. We could do that. If you want PM me and I'll spell it out in more deatil.

As for the code of conduct...I don't know how we'd solve that. Can we be subject to the code when the level of trg isn't up to par? Would we be only half as culpable?

I'd like to hear anyother POVs from fellow toon meatheads

cheers

So why not implement a training program and raise the standards for the reserves that is equivalent to that of a reg. force MP?  If reserves are going to be performing the same duties and carrying around a sig, then they should be trained and put throught the exact same selection process as reg. force....  then again, i'm probably just reiterating what has been beat to death here a thousand and one times...

 

[Poppa]

One of the big show stoppers is time. We don't have the time to train up to the same level. It's not just MPs who have this problem all reserve trades do. It doesn't make them less of a troop we just have different roles. There is a gap in capabilities in all trades between regs and res.
Just saying "make them do the same trg" does not address any of the raised issues. we ahve to keep in mind the unique role the reservist palys in the CF specifically the Army.

 

[Kurhaus]

So why not implement a training program and raise the standards for the reserves that is equivalent to that of a reg. force MP?   If reserves are going to be performing the same duties and carrying around a sig, then they should be trained and put throught the exact same selection process as reg. force....   then again, i'm probably just reiterating what has been beat to death here a thousand and one times...

My point exactly when I posted about the ARAF concept.

 

[garb811]

When he goes out in his CI role overseas they need another couiple of pers with him to provide protection. We could do that. If you want PM me and I'll spell it out in more deatil.

Funny you should mention this.  There had been a requirement for a CF translator in Bosnia in support of the CI team.  Although there was a Militia MP who was fluent in the language and attempts were made to get that person over both by them volunteering for the position once they found out and from higher when the person was identified, their local unit stymied every attempt.  Makes you kind of go...hmmm...