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The FN C1 - Service Rifle of the Past (and C7A1 vs FN C1A1)

Danjanou

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Guess you missed the retired part of my profile there eh Starbucks Boy.

I'm a little too long in the tooth to come back and play M/Cpl or Sgt these days. I was using this particular weapon while you were playing with cap pistols. Besides the domestic niner would probably hate the pay cut I'd have to take.


See unlike other senior persons on here, I'll answer your inane comebacks and play with you. Mind I'm old, bored and lonely.
8)
 

SeanNewman

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Danjanou said:
Guess you missed the retired part of my profile there eh Starbucks Boy.

Actually when I wrote "around" I meant alive, not serving...old man (fair retort for "boy")  ;)
 

Haletown

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medicineman said:
My dad told me of a guy that did that with live rounds - a bit of barrel warpage occured, followed shortly thereafter by career warpage.  I've seen it done on exercise with blanks, but I don't think it would be smart with the lighter barrel for much live stuff, especially if you're having a Rambo sustanined fire moment  ::).

MM

It could be a problem but as long as you were careful with short bursts & pauses it was no worse than just squeezing off mag after mag as fast as you could pull the trigger . . . .  and guys could fire off 20 rounds in just a few seconds with just trigger pulling single rounds

When you could light your Export A off the Gas Plug, you knew you were too hot.

You also knew you could cook off a round in the breech and it was a good time to drop the mag & pull back the bolt carrier , engage the empty mag catch and pause for some cooling off time.

Ahhhhh the old days & the fun you could have on a range.



 

medicineman

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Apparently he failed to understand the concept of the controlled burst; I've done some pretty rapid applications with the C1 with live rounds, but they still took a little longer than a "few" seconds to empty a magazine; mind you, if I didn't care where the rounds were going, took alot less time  ;D.

MM
 

KevinB

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The interesting thing about most of the usual sear tricks to get the gun to fire auto, was that a lot of the C1A1's had short trigger plungers installed, and only needed the C2 selector to run properly.

Years ago I saw some CAR guns where C1's and C2 had swapped the lowers and upper, to give a select fire rifles, and semi-auto bipod heavy barrel DM guns, the C7's came shortly after so I only saw it once while watching a jump/FTX at Julliet Tower when I was supposed to be doing something else.  Back as a 17yr old reserve Artilleryman, I dared not ask who/what/where least the death dealing jumpers strangle me (funny how life experiences change ones views)

I saw one of the C1's with C1 Sniper Scope in Ottawa at Connaught - never figured out where it came from, it showed up for a weapons display with C3's while on my SACC.


The chipmuch cheek -- later when I bought my own (Aussie L1A1 with mint CF furniture I added), I found if you actually got the proper stock, it pretty much dealt with that (that gun sadly was sold and deactivated by the new owner).

Later on in '94/'95 WO Tom Ahern (then freshly promoted out of JTF-2) tried to get some C1A1's as DM guns for A Coy 1VP's (he knew the CF was not going to buy HK PSG-1's or KAC SR-25's for this) upcoming deployment to Rwanda (which was scrapped after 3Pl flew to Uganda to spend 35 days in a hotel) as secuity for the DART, and it became unworkable due to few of us knew anything about the C1, and whomever had them did not want to release them (despite releasing NIB C8's and Pistols from warstock to DART, seeing mint No1 MkII* dumped in CLP and the decal pealing off them all made me want to cry as my own personally bought 9T3534 Mo1. MkII* did not have one).

In Iraq we conujured up a bunch of FAL's in various flavors (the Aussies loved to make 10-12" guns) however I sorted thru some of the full length Para ones we had to make a DM gun, and none short very well even with match ammo (it was hard to get fixed stock guns, but Para folders seemed in easy supply).  An ex-SASR buddy of mine ended up with a 16" gun that filled our DM role, until BigRed got me the Hk21A1, and I lived with a beltfed DM gun  ;) (sub MOA with belted M118LR and a S&B Short Dot).







 

NavyShooter

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I-6,

My L1A1 (Brit) would hold a 5 round group into 3/4" with match ammo. 

It is a mishmash of parts.  Somehow, the confluence of goodness imparted me with a good shooter.  Not one part matches, but it's a fine shooter.  Not every one will work so well as that, I just got REAL lucky.

My L1A1 (Aus) hasn't been range-tested, neither has my C1A1, since I can't get an SAP to take them to the range anymore.

:-(

My Ishapore 1A1 will pump in nice solid 2-3" groups, and leaves the brass all stretched, but not quite broken....a buddy of mine has an Ishapore that's got excessive headspace....he got a real pretty bulge on his brass when he used to shoot it.

NS
 

TCBF

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NavyShooter said:
... My L1A1 (Aus) hasn't been range-tested, neither has my C1A1, since I can't get an SAP to take them to the range anymore. :-( ... NS ...

- It's all about timelines. Sometimes I WISH I had tested my C1A1 with a given load, then GOLLY! It turns out I HAD, back when I COULD, and the targets to prove it are right in front of me!  No photos, though...

8)
 

Colin Parkinson

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Mine's a hybrid between a FAL and FNC1, it was owned by a Reg force weapons tech on a base known as "Sleepy Hollow" It was/is a good shooter.

The sad thing about the FN's was that many of us as young plugs and Jr NCO's were not taught the importance of maintaining the parts as whole. I remember being ordered to set up vats of Varsol and oil and the guns been stripped down with the parts tossed in and then reassembled from the pile. While it cleaned a lot guns efficiently, I am sure that did not help the reliability or the accuracy of the rifles.

I6 Being a young Reserve gunner is fine way to start a career, you now give me hope to be a Jedi warrior (4th class, Home Guard, that is.)
 

1feral1

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One thing I remember about the whole C1/C2 thing was the commonality of the breech block, and carrier where one/any breech block will do.

Although there were some breech blocks which had CFRs etched into them, they were in no means related to a CFR held in the armoury, yet alone the region. No carries had any CFRs at all.

Australia and the UK had matching carriers and breech blocks to their L1A1 rifles (L2A1 ARs [Auto Rifles]) for Aust), if not matched the rifle was classified 'XX' and repairable.

Same goes for the C7 FOW, any carrier and bolt will do, where as here in Australia, the carrier and bolt are matched to the weapon on all Armalites (M16A1/A2 and M4's).  No exceptions.

Just some freaky small arms facts.

OWDU 

 

SeanNewman

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Overwatch Downunder said:
Same goes for the C7 FOW, any carrier and bolt will do, where as here in Australia, the carrier and bolt are matched to the weapon on all Armalites (M16A1/A2 and M4's).  No exceptions....OWDU

Out of curiosity, what is your assessment of that?  Are you saying that it's procedure to keep the same bolt with the rifle, or that it wouldn't even work if you changed bolts?  I am of the opinion that any part of the rifle should be interchangeable...not so much that you'd want to because keeping matching numbers together is important.

A case where that doesn't work for us is something like the .50 cal because they're so old and have fired so many rounds that all the parts have more of less mated together and even if you wanted to change some parts you couldn't.
 

Old Sweat

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For whatever it is worth, I was taught as a recruit way back in 1958 that the C1 differed from the Lee-Enfield in that the breech block and body cover were not matched to the weapon. (I was in the first squad in the RCA Depot not to be issued a SMLE No 4 Mk 1*. Some of the squads ahead of mine were held back to convert to the C1, which included all the TSOETs and range work as well as arms drill.)

 

NavyShooter

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Petamocto,

I've assembled a couple of AR-15's (personal) and play gun-plumber as a bit of a hobby.

One thing I like to look for on an M-16 FOW rifle is the rear mating surfaces of the locking lugs.  A bit of oil, 30-50 rounds to get the rifle slightly carbon'd up, and pull the bolt out to have a look at the rear surfaces of the locking lugs.  If I see equal bits of carbon on each one, I know all are mating properly.  If I see one that's not getting contact (based on the oil/carbon) not as good, but not a big deal.  If there's more than 2 that aren't getting contact, there's something not quite right.

If you have consistent carbon/oil patterns on all 7 lugs, then IMO, you have good lockup.  (Presuming the headspace is GO.)

That's my take as an informed amateur, so those who're more in the know feel free to dissuade me of this opinion.

As an aside, my Brit L1A1 had the breech block, Breech block Carrier, and Upper Receiver with all different serial numbers, and there was no issue with headspace.  Having the different locking shoulders allowed minor headspace issues to be corrected, which is something that can't be done on an M-16 FOW.

NS
 

SeanNewman

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Navy,

Thanks for the post.

Interesting way to look at it with a relatively small collection (compared to a CF unit vault).
 

Fishbone Jones

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I'll go with NS on this one. I've probably built 15 AR platforms from scratch (buying all parts individually) and been involved in the building of maybe a dozen more. I've never experienced any fitting or headspace problems, unlike the Springfield M1A type systems we've done, where bolts, etc had to be hand fitted.
 

SeanNewman

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recceguy said:
...I've never experienced any fitting or headspace problems...

And that's how I would think that all modern weapons should be made.  We're not in the 1800s anymore when every factory made ammunition and parts that were different sizes even though to the same spec.

One would think that modern tolerances and computer-aided design would make for a 100% interchangeable parts list even if they've been used heavily.
 

1feral1

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Petamocto said:
Out of curiosity, what is your assessment of that?  Are you saying that it's procedure to keep the same bolt with the rifle, or that it wouldn't even work if you changed bolts?  I am of the opinion that any part of the rifle should be interchangeable...not so much that you'd want to because keeping matching numbers together is important.

A case where that doesn't work for us is something like the .50 cal because they're so old and have fired so many rounds that all the parts have more of less mated together and even if you wanted to change some parts you couldn't.

Hi,

Personally, I prefer the CF way of doing business. I have commented on this issue here in Australia many times here, and I find things are unnecessary when it comes to this accountibility nightmare. In the 21st century here in Australia, its now all about duty/care with HS failure, etc. The Defence Force is a business (actually referred to as an 'organisation' now), no longer a 'force'. Although I have only seen a few F88 fail HS in the past +15 yrs, and never seen an L1A1 SLR/L2A1 AR (HS set at time of assembly/bbl change WRT locking shoulders as specified previously) or M16 fail.  I would say HS at time of repair/component change, and then annually thereafter. I too appreciate the interchangability, and thats how it should be.

The M2 Browning here is QCB, and both bolts match the gun, and this however is necessary for the QCB version WRT HS and timing. The serial number and the size number of a cam are stamped on the bolt. This QCB version the the Cadillac of machine guns, very easy to maintain. Both barrels match the gun also. ATIs/prefires conducted pick up any wear/tear on the gun. if teh gun fails HS, the cam size is changed (bolt re-stamped to reflect this), and its a Unit repair

Cheers,

OWDU
 

SeanNewman

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We had a fluke here last year with .50 cals.  You know the military standard of using the last three of serial/service numbers, well we had a range with a dozen .50 cals and with 1:10,000 odds we had two with the same last four numbers.

Not matching numbers = Significant Incident Report to fill out and - 1 x .50 cal in the inventory.
 
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