The FN C1 - Service Rifle of the Past (and C7A1 vs FN C1A1)

[SeanNewman]

Nothing is "Free".

Hence the reason I put "free" in quotation marks.  It would cost less than the others, and the literature already exists (although probably on a stone tablet which would have to be scanned to a PDF).

It's all a moot point anyway because it would never happen.  Retro-fitting the rifles with modern rails and optics would not be worth it when there are better alternatives out there.

While one of the lesser criteria, the need to look generally the same as the general purpose rifle must be considered (in order to have that person not stand out any more than necessary).  The rifle + optic + peripherals must look generally the same, which is to say that a massive silencer/scope is frowned upon (as is something made out of wood or bolt action).

 

[BernDawg]

It's all a moot point anyway because it would never happen.  Retro-fitting the rifles with modern rails and optics would not be worth it when there are better alternatives out there.

While I agree with you that it's a moot point I have an interesting side note...  I seem to recall guys buying after market reciever covers for the FN that would, of course, fit on our C1's that had scope rails on them and "coyboying up" on ex with their own optics.  Never live but had fun while snoopin' n' poopin' during RV and the like.  :warstory:

 

[SeanNewman]

Yes I agree that it would be interesting to do, and I'm still curious to see how it would perform in the rest of the tests.

I realize that it has some strengths (as does the Ross Rifle for that matter), at the end of the day we're talking about rifles that are 50 years newer that it would be going up against.

Yes a 1964 Mustang may have been great for its day, it's kind of silly to compare it to a 2011 Mustang.

And just to be my own devil's advocate...say that it could shoot better, truer, and more reliably than anything else today, the giant cons going against it are weight, visual profile, and ease of learning.  A rifleman used to a C7 should be able to pick one up off the ground and be able to figure it out in no time.

Universality of systems and learning and all that jazz.

 

[medicineman]

I seem to recall the British had an optical sight unit that could be used on their L1A1's - the Trilux I believe, could be bolted on over the rear sight.  Yeah, I know we don't have them, but had to toss that out there as an option since you're getting nostalgic.

MM

 

[SeanNewman]

... but had to toss that out there as an option since you're getting nostalgic.

You joke, but you seriously have to watch what you ask for from DLR when you request "600m, pierces ____ armour, ____ accuracy, and ____ rate of fire" lest you end up Iroquois Indians with a Longbow firing carbon fibre arrows using a MaxiKite.

 

[a_majoor]

You joke, but you seriously have to watch what you ask for from DLR when you request "600m, pierces ____ armour, ____ accuracy, and ____ rate of fire" lest you end up Iroquois Indians with a Longbow firing carbon fibre arrows using a MaxiKite.

I'd go for a company of Welsh longbowmen myself.

 

[medicineman]

You joke, but you seriously have to watch what you ask for from DLR when you request "600m, pierces ____ armour, ____ accuracy, and ____ rate of fire" lest you end up Iroquois Indians with a Longbow firing carbon fibre arrows using a MaxiKite.

I guess I came across the wrong way (the nostalgia comment - most of the weapons you were alluding to were a little older, C1, M14, etc), but I used a C1 for a couple of years and really don't have many bad things to say about it.  The query was about optical sights and the C1 - I'd say the option is there based on what I mentioned about the Trilux - just have to either tweek our weapon for a sight or get some on the Brit L1's with their sight rails/receivers.

MM

 

[1feral1]

Two points,

The UK rifle optics for the L1A1 SLR was the SUIT (Sight Unit Infantry Trilux). I had one for many years. I was a QD affixed to a long body cover, and once removed one could use the L1A1 or C1A1 rear sight not a problem. It fitted supurbly on the C1A1 rifle.

I had taken it on many Ex's just as a novelty. It was large and often in the way, and was easlier bashed about.

It had an inverted pointer and a GLTS source, and was 4X power. They are often around on sale now, but usually without the GLTS bit. I sold mine for $750 here in Australia back in about 1996.

Nomenclature: Sight Unit Infantry Trilux L2A2
NSN: 1240-99-964-7647
Dimensions:
Length: 18.8 cm
Width: 7.6 cm
Height: 6.9 cm
Weight: 340 gm
Reticule: Illuminated inverted post.
Range Settings: 300m (rear), 500m (forward)
Magnification: 4X
Objective Aperture: 25.5 mm
Field of View: 8 degrees (140 mils)
Light Transmission: 86%
Exit Pupil Diameter: 6.6 mm
Eye Relief: 35 mm
Environment: -75deg to +90deg
Active Element: 0.22 curies of Tritium gas
Illumination color: Red
Manufacturer: Avimo Ltd.

In regards to the L1A1/C1A1 being brought back into service. Even when there was many thousand SLRs still in war stocks in western Sydney, adn a smaller abundance of parts, the semi-automatic Springfield Armory M1A Scout was picked, and is currently in the system here to fulfill any requirement for such a rifle.

The M1A Scout is shorter, packs the 7.62mm NATO punch, has 20 rd mags, semi-auto, and is a combat proven system (Daddy M1 Garand - oh, its inventor John Garand was a Canadian), and is new not made in the 50s, 60s, 70s or 80s, but in the past few years. There are also some unique add ons too. That being said there is also some new add ons for the FAL family too, but possibly too little too late, at least for Australia anyways.

Regards,

OWDU

 

[NavyShooter]

There ARE 0L-7L rifles in Canada.

I have a friend who has a 0L rifle in his collection, right next to his EX1 series rifle.

Back in the day, CAL used to be able to sell them to DCRA members, and I believe the Stevens book shows a photo of one of the tags or receipts for sale of them to DCRA shooters.

I have in my safe one of the 8L ex OPP rifles.  The "tale" of these rifles, as I understand it is thus:

Every OPP det had two rifles.

In the early-mid 80's, they were deemed surplus, and gathered for disposal. 

They were sold to a company in the UK.  (Hence the UK import and proof marks.)

That company sold approximately 300 of them to Commonwealth Militaria in Ontario, some of them sequentially serial numbered. 

CM sold them for between $750 and $1400 per rifle (prices went up over the years)

Thus, there are approximately 300 of these rifles in Canada.

Plus a few DCRA rifles. 

Assuming that there's perhaps 300 DCRA rifles, that's maybe 600 FN C1's that remain.  I heard a number bandied about that DND saved less than 500 of the C1's from the smelter for historical/display purposes.

That means there's about 1100 of these rifles remaining.    Ish.

There are a FEW FN C2's around as welll, I'm aware of at least one in private hands, as a Converted Auto (class 12-3).

I'm proud to have a rather rare piece of Canadian history in my safe at home, and I shared a photo library comparison between the C1A1, the L1A1, and the 1A1 (Brit and Indian respectively) on milsurps.com 

I also have the SUIT sight, and like it's QD system.  Very simple....almost un-British.

NS

 

[NavyShooter]

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=4317

http://imageevent.com/badgerdog/cgnmilsurpknowledgebase/fn1a1vsfnl1a1vsfnc1a1

 

[medicineman]

Thanks Wes, knew you'd come through with that  ;D.

MM

 

[1feral1]

There ARE 0L-7L rifles in Canada.

I have a friend who has a 0L rifle in his collection, right next to his EX1 series rifle.

Back in the day, CAL used to be able to sell them to DCRA members, and I believe the Stevens book shows a photo of one of the tags or receipts for sale of them to DCRA shooters.

I have in my safe one of the 8L ex OPP rifles.  The "tale" of these rifles, as I understand it is thus:

Every OPP det had two rifles.

In the early-mid 80's, they were deemed surplus, and gathered for disposal. 

They were sold to a company in the UK.  (Hence the UK import and proof marks.)

That company sold approximately 300 of them to Commonwealth Militaria in Ontario, some of them sequentially serial numbered. 

CM sold them for between $750 and $1400 per rifle (prices went up over the years)

Thus, there are approximately 300 of these rifles in Canada.

Plus a few DCRA rifles. 

Assuming that there's perhaps 300 DCRA rifles, that's maybe 600 FN C1's that remain.  I heard a number bandied about that DND saved less than 500 of the C1's from the smelter for historical/display purposes.

That means there's about 1100 of these rifles remaining.    Ish.

There are a FEW FN C2's around as welll, I'm aware of at least one in private hands, as a Converted Auto (class 12-3).

I'm proud to have a rather rare piece of Canadian history in my safe at home, and I shared a photo library comparison between the C1A1, the L1A1, and the 1A1 (Brit and Indian respectively) on milsurps.com 

I also have the SUIT sight, and like it's QD system.  Very simple....almost un-British.

NS

Thanks NS for the reminder about the 0L's, truly a gem in anyone's collection. I do have the North American FAL book, and failed to remember that, its been many years since I had a squizz at it.

I knew a collector in northern Saskatchewan who had a C2, but it was made up, sure a C2 marked upper, but a parts gun, no genuine 'LA' series CFR. It too was SA, just like the Aussie L2A1 I once used to own, an AD63.

In Regina armouries they at one time had a C2, CFR 0LA003.

Cheers,

OWDU

 

[Haletown]

or really old farts that remember how to take a piece of foil liner paper from a pack of Export A's, fold it just the right way, place it around the trigger sear just the right way . . .  and turn your semi-auto C1 into a fully Auto C2, without the heavy barrel & bipod.

Ahh the old days . . .  me & C823192  (if memory serves me well)

 

[medicineman]

or really old farts that remember how to take a piece of foil liner paper from a pack of Export A's, fold it just the right way, place it around the trigger sear just the right way . . .  and turn your semi-auto C1 into a fully Auto C2, without the heavy barrel & bipod.

Ahh the old days . . .  me & C823192  (if memory serves me well)

My dad told me of a guy that did that with live rounds - a bit of barrel warpage occured, followed shortly thereafter by career warpage.  I've seen it done on exercise with blanks, but I don't think it would be smart with the lighter barrel for much live stuff, especially if you're having a Rambo sustanined fire moment  :.

MM

 

[Retired AF Guy]

While I agree with you that it's a moot point I have an interesting side note...  I seem to recall guys buying after market reciever covers for the FN that would, of course, fit on our C1's that had scope rails on them and "coyboying up" on ex with their own optics.  Never live but had fun while snoopin' n' poopin' during RV and the like.  :warstory:

There was actually a "sniper" version of the FN C1A1 which consisted of a modified top cover with a scope mounted on it. Cannot remember the scope designation, magnification, or who made it. I only seen it once and that was at a rifle range in Cyprus.

 

[kkwd]

There was actually a "sniper" version of the FN C1A1 which consisted of a modified top cover with a scope mounted on it. Cannot remember the scope designation, magnification, or who made it. I only seen it once and that was at a rifle range in Cyprus.

Look familiar?

 

[NavyShooter]

OWDU,

I got curious, and now that I'm at home can refer to my Stevens book.

Page 133.

Bottom right corner.

Bill of sale from CAL.

Rifles 8L 5006 to 8L 5012 were sold together....in 1972 to a "qualified group of civilian shooter" along with 14 magazines, and a free replacement "Carrier assembly"....at No Charge.

Total price for the 7 rifles and 14 mags?  $1934.52. 

Having a C1 in your collection? 

Priceless.

And knowing that so few have or can have them, that's part of why I did up the photo montage on Milsurps.com.

NS

 

[1feral1]

WRT the'Sniper' version you mentioned.

A scope called the Scope, Sniper, C1 was produced by Leitz Canada.

In my 18 yrs, 11 months in the CF, I had never seen one in service, and a good collector friend in Estevan Saskatchewan has one, with original case.

As for the rifle, there was no special stock selection, just a generic C1. There was no 'sniper' modifications allowed to the rifle, unlike the competition mods (as per CFTO instruction) to the hammer and change lever.

I have no idea how many scopes were contracted to the CF during it's period of service, nor the scale of issue per Infantry Coy/Bn.

Cheers,

OWDU

 

[Danjanou]

KKwd you remember when a certain overeager M/Cpl (not me) found a case of those body covers and scopes in the asbestos/lead encrusted basement and wrote a proposal to DW that they be issued one per section and each section have a trained designated marksman. The CSM went ballistic.  8)

 

[SeanNewman]

...one per section and each section have a trained designated marksman...

If you stay around long enough your wish will come true.