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The Canadian Peacekeeping Myth (Merged Topics)

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"The members of 3 PPCLI BG were well recognized at the time for their efforts.  Having said that, some 3 years later it seems that an admittedly small but significant piece of Canadian Army history is all but forgotten - at least in the infamously attention-deficit minds of the Canadian media. " MarkC

I believe that the PAOs have a duty and an obligation to correct the media, during the many interviews conducted before during and post missions. I have yet to see any PAO correct any media on any issue. In there press releases and briefings they have a duty to remind Canadians what the CF role is and that as MarkC pointed out earlier has conduct many successful combat operations in the not to distant past.

IMHO, I think PAOs are many times a hindrance in getting this message out.  :salute:
 
Is going to Afghanistan to hunt down the al-quadea not peacekeeping/making ??

People always seem to think that just because you use force and/or there are casualites that it is no longer a peacekeeping mission...
 
in my opinon, peace keeping means avoiding deaths as much as possible, not killing people  but peace Making does require you Kill whatever is in your way, to achieve your objective
 
SeanPaul_031 said:
Is going to Afghanistan to hunt down the al-quadea not peacekeeping/making ??
No.  It is not peacekeeping.  It is war and there is an enemy.  "Peacekeeping" would imply that the theater contained two or more opposing beligerents and we were there to prevent thier continued use of force.
 
Jaxson said:
in my opinon, peace keeping means avoiding deaths as much as possible, not killing people   but peace Making does require you Kill whatever is in your way, to achieve your objective
    In many cases, killing is the only way to save lives.  To keep the peace in fact is to use force on those who would break the peace, to apply the weapons and training to eliminate the abiltiy of beligerants to make war.  In Rwanda, the UN avoided killing anyone.  Thousands died because the UN was sent in without the force, or the mandate to kill to keep the peace.  If the UN would have had the force and will to kill hundreds, thousands more would be alive today.  Whose deaths do you wish to avoid?  Do you wish to save the unarmed innocents, or the armed combatants?  To keep the peace in truth, you must be willing to kill those who wish to break the peace.  The UN has lost the will to fight to save lives, its peackeepers are too often prevented from using their weapons to prevent hostilities, and attrocities.  Peace at all cost is a childs dream, and cynical politicians lie.  Peace at the cost of genocide, at the cost of opression, banditry, and barbarism is not worth having.  To be a soldier is to know that sometimes the problem is not that peace must be kept, but that war must be fought and won.  It has been said that justice flows from the sword, or gun in todays world, that is not always true.  It is true that those who cherish justice, have been able to see it restored only after the triumph of their guns.  How many lands live under laws today, because we didn't keep a peace, but fought for something better?
 
even though your right.... for making me doubt myself and my opinion i do not like you anymore    jokes man,    but yes you do have a point  :D
 
I think this answers the original question, and that blithering idiot Carolyn Parrish, too.

From today's Ottawa Citizen:

http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=2626f528-61b1-496d-a0f3-50782e2b5a3a
Casualties of war

Andrew Cohen
Citizen Special

Tuesday, July 26, 2005

The first of hundreds of Canadian soldiers are leaving for Afghan-istan, where they will become part of a "provincial reconstruction team" in the southern city of Kandahar. Although they are well-led, well-trained and well-equipped, they are going to a dangerous neighbourhood. Some will be hurt. Some will be killed. Our military is ready for this.

Are we?

That Canadians are reluctant to have their troops go into harm's way is reflected in the response to the artlessly frank comments of General Rick Hillier, the chief of the defence staff. He calls the terrorists "detestable murderers and scumbags" and warns that there will be deaths on both sides.

"They want to break our society -- I believe that," he says. "And I believe that therefore we are going to be a target in their sights."

It is an unusual declaration for the top soldier in Canada, where we no longer think of soldiers as professional killers. Over the last generation, we have come to see them less as warriors than as peacekeepers, when it was a "safe" international vocation.

So, when Gen. Hillier talks the truth in clear, compelling English, the tender, weak-kneed souls who find this language offensive call him belligerent, trigger-happy, aggressive, and -- the unkindest cut of all -- American.

For example, Maude Barlow, the chairwoman of the Council of Canadians, hoped that "Canada would play a thoughtful, moderating position in this." Stephen Staples of the Polaris Institute said he found the comments "rather alarming," fearing that Canada is becoming a legion in George Bush's army. In newspapers, critics decried Gen. Hillier "as a street punk looking for a fight on a Saturday night," a tribune in the American "simplistic war on terror" and a "self-serving military opportunist."

All of this reflects an enduring skepticism about the military in Canada. For years, skittish governments have played down the dangers of peacekeeping (as in 1993, when Canadian blue berets were in an intense fire-fight in the Medak Pocket in Croatia. Their courage would go unrecognized until Gov. Gen. Adrienne Clarkson acknowledged them in a ceremony nine years later.)

This great delusion -- soldiers as boy scouts and do-gooders -- has taken root in the Canadian psyche. We have fallen in love with the idea of Canada as peacekeeper. It has become a cherished part of our iconography, celebrated on the $10 bill and in that imposing granite monument on Sussex Drive in Ottawa.

But peacekeeping was always just a part of our international military commitments. Although Canada supplied 10 per cent of troops to the United Nations, more than any other nation, our commitment to NATO in the Cold War was greater.

Yet, so important is peacekeeping to us -- in a 2002 survey, 73 per cent of Canadians said peacekeeping was one of those things that defined them as a people -- that many do not know that we have fought real wars. Or that 100,000 men and women died in Korea and the two world wars.

Now, it seems, we're just nice guys, congenitally incapable of pointing a gun or dropping a bomb. We are mediators and conciliators rather than gladiators or warriors. "No death, please," we say. "We're Canadian."

We have a military, yes, but we do not have a military culture. The military isn't part of the national consciousness as it is in Russia, Israel or Indonesia. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it has made us naive about this unpleasant world and our responsibilities to it. We have become so wary of our soldiers dying, accidentally or otherwise, that when they do, it fosters a ritualistic outpouring of grief from politicians, who issue condolences, lower flags and rush to funerals. However sincere, it makes our soldiers wonder about the determination of their society in the face of sustained casualties in the field.

This kind of ignorance allows us to believe that we have no enemies, that we'd never be a target of terrorists at home and that peacekeeping is really no different today from what it was in the 1960s, when there was actually peace to keep in Cyprus and the Sinai.

That's why Gen. Hillier said what he said; he's warning a complacent people about what lies ahead. His choice of words bothered some of his colleagues, and yes, he might have put things more delicately. But do not mistake the urgency of his message.

Canada is in Kandahar to do the work of nation-building, helping a shattered society rebuild itself. It is honourable work, shared by the Norwegians, the Japanese, the Germans and other high-minded democracies. But there will be a cost. Gen. Hillier understands this. Canadians should too.

Andrew Cohen is a professor of journalism and international affairs at Carleton University.

E-mail: andrew_cohen@carleton.ca

© The Ottawa Citizen 2005

The great delusion, highlighted above, is a major Canadian blind-spot, it ranks right up there with free healthcare and our deeply ingrained thoughtless anti-Americanism.  Canadians who believe this drivel, and a majority do, are ill educated and incapable of making mature decisions about their country and its place in the world - that's probably why we elect so many, many quite third rate people to parliament and why we are, broadly, afraid of any politician who challenges the fat, dumb and happy national status quo.

 
What the hell is the Polaris Int.? don't they make snowmoblies there? We as Canadians and i mean people not in or have family in the military live a very sheltered and : that can't happen to us" lives!
 
Gee there are some pretty dumb Canadians out there...
 
I think we have to bear in mind that the Canadian public, short of Sidane Arone and broken submarines, are quite content to go on with with life not caring a whit for the CF. It sucks, but we are not in the periscope of most(99%) Canadians. We get minor tips of the hat for ice storm rescues, or filling sand bags on the Red River, but lip service, from the public, and the federal government is a long sad tradition. The Pearsonian concept of peacekeeping(Cyprus, Iran Iraq 88, Golan Heights) was a cheap, no risk of loss method of inserting troops into areas that the opposing forces had already demarcated, giving Canadian politicians an opportunity to deploy forces they were loath to sustain, missions they could exploit for their own politcal ends, "punching above our weight", so to say. The illusion of putting on the line, without really doing so.
 
What people don't understand is we don't want to be weak, nor do we want to be overly aggressive.

So if you think of it terms of a school ground:

being the bespeckled brainiac, while noble, will get you beat up,

Being the bully, will get you no friends, and eventually gets you beat up,

But what we need to be is the tough guy everyone knows will kick their butt if they piss him off, but is still friendly enough to have many friends...

Occasionally the tough guy needs to get into scraps to reinforce to everyone he is not to be messed with.
:cdn:

This is how we as a Canadian Armed Forces and as a country need to be thought as.  Not the gentle giant nobody respects we have become
:salute:
 
Alot of people i know are talking about how if we send troops over there its only a matter of time before we get hit over here... I will sit there, and listen to what they have to say respectfully, not saying what i am thinking... And at the end of the conversation all i have to say is that its alot harder for them to plan their attacks when theres a large group of Canadian Commandos knocking on their door :D
 
Well, I read this with some dismay this morning (emphasis added):

Peacekeepers leave Canada for Kandahar: Team will join U.S. forces facing Taliban resistance

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDMONTON - The main contingent of <Canadian> peacekeepers heading for Afghanistan left Edmonton yesterday for a region where U.S.-led attacks on Taliban warlords and al-Qaeda operatives are expected to intensify before September elections.

Canadian Defence Minister Bill Graham and Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier watched the 110 soldiers from the 1 Canadian Mechanized Brigade take-off at the Edmonton International Airport.

The total contingency of 250 troops will help form the Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT) travelling to Afghanistan's Kandahar province, where American-led troops have recently encountered a stepped-up Taliban resistance.

Across Afghanistan, coalition troops have killed hundreds of insurgents in recent weeks in an attempt to secure the country in the lead-up to the Sept. 18 parliamentary elections.

Mr. Graham says the role of Canadian troops in Afghanistan over the next six months will be to aid coalition forces and bring stability into the lives of Afghanis.

"They have to be combat-ready to do that, to provide stability," Mr. Graham said. "That's what Afghans want, that's what [Afghan] President Hamid Karzai wants, and that's what they need."

Upon arrival, the PRT will work with local police, the Afghan army, provincial politicians and bureaucrats to stabilize the nation's government and thwart a growing insurgency.

As recently as six months ago, Afghanistan was viewed as the prototypical result of President George W. Bush's nation-building policy.

But the progress Afghanistan had made on peace since holding democratic elections last October has deteriorated. Near-daily suicide bombings, ambushes and execution-style killings are threatening almost three years of progressive state-building as the deposed Taliban regime has intensified attacks against coalition troops in an attempt to regain their stronghold on the country.

Gen. Hillier expects Taliban and al-Qaeda terrorists to continue attacking coalition forces, which could include <Canadian> troops, with land mines, vehicle-born explosives and rifle fire.

"Kandahar and southern Afghanistan is a risky and dangerous region. [The Taliban] has been much more active in the past month than it has in the past year," Gen. Hillier said.

Recent casualty numbers support Gen. Hillier's claim. With yesterday's killing of at least 40 Taliban militants by U.S. soldiers in Uruzgan province, the death toll resulting from political violence in the country in 2005 is more than 800, compared with 850 in all of 2004.

Gen. Hillier sparked controversy earlier this month when he told reporters that Canadian troops will go to Afghanistan to fight "detestable murderers and scumbags" and their role in the upcoming deployment is "to be able to kill people."

Yesterday, Gen. Hillier softened his comments by telling reporters he simply meant that Canadian troops will have to be combat-ready.

"[Our troops] are still peacekeepers. They're making lives better but they're also realizing that in order to move to that level, they have to make the place secure, and they'll do what they have to do to do that," Mr. Graham said in support of Gen. Hillier.

The PRT also consists of soldiers from the Third Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry and 1 Service Battalion.

The six-month mission will be bolstered by members of the Canadian International Development Agency, Foreign Affairs Canada, the RCMP and other aid organizations and Canadian diplomats.

Although this was the CP story this morning, which reads a lot better:

Tough-talking military chief defends blunt remarks: Brushes off criticism after saying soldiers' job is to be able to kill

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDMONTON - Canada's top military officials are brushing off criticism from Independent MP Carolyn Parrish over the blunt language of Chief of Defence Staff Rick Hillier.

The maverick MP, a former Liberal, has called Hillier "dangerous" and "testosterone-fuelled" for saying the job of Canadian soldiers is to be able to kill people.

Hillier was in Edmonton yesterday with Defence Minister Bill Graham to see off about 110 soldiers who are on their way to Afghanistan for a reconstruction mission. The plain-speaking general said he hadn't seen Parrish's comments but wasn't particularly concerned about them.

"I'm part of ensuring that Canadians understand and appreciate just what these fine men and women ... just what fine work they do on their behalf," Hillier told reporters at Edmonton International Airport. "I'm not offended at all. I have a job to do, and I'm concentrated on doing that job."

Parrish is rumoured to be negotiating to return to federal Liberal caucus after being banished for criticizing Martin and his team and stomped on a George W. Bush doll as part of a TV skit satirizing her opposition to the U.S. president's ballistic missile defence scheme.

Graham described her as "a person with strong opinions an strong views," but stopped short of censuring her over her latest remarks.

If Parrish could see the work the Canadian Forces are doing in Afghanistan, he said, she could appreciate that the mission is dangerous and potentially deadly.

"To bring stability to a place like Afghanistan, they're risking their lives and they have to take measures," Graham said. "They have to be combat-ready to do that.

"They're still bringing Canadian values in making lives better, but they're also realizing that in order for them to move to that level, they have to make the place secure first. That's what Gen. Hillier has been saying, and I have to say I back him up 100 per cent."

The soldiers who left yesterday are part of a 250-member provincial reconstruction team that also includes representatives from the Canadian International Development Agency, Foreign Affairs, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and various non-governmental organizations.

Most of the troops are from 1 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group, mainly members of Edmonton Garrison's 1 Combat Engineer Regiment, 3 Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry and 1 Service Battalion. Another 50 from other Canadian bases will provide specialized skills such as satellite communications.

In Kandahar, the southern Afghan region that was once a stronghold of the Taliban, the reconstruction team will assist in defence, diplomacy and development. Members have been prepared for direct combat with Taliban fighters as insurgents promise more - and more sophisticated - attacks on foreign troops.

I wonder what the terminology will be when TF 01-06 goes in in Feb...?
 
Rick Hillier vs. Carolyn Parrish ... hmmm ... I'm guessing that's a matchup the government will be quite happy with.
The chief is fighting a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
 
"Alot of people i know are talking about how if we send troops over there its only a matter of time before we get hit over here... I will sit there, and listen to what they have to say respectfully, not saying what i am thinking... And at the end of the conversation all i have to say is that its alot harder for them to plan their attacks when theres a large group of Canadian Commandos knocking on their door" -hunter911


as wrong as this will sound but it would almost be a good thing if a bomb went off in Canada from a terrorist, i believe the army would undoubtedly get an extremely enhanced Budget and the Canadian public would get a little slap in the face of a wake up call that would bring HUGE support to the Canadian forces (hopefully). although don't get me wrong i don't like to hear or see of innocent people dying.
 
Jaxson said:
as wrong as this will sound but it would almost be a good thing if a bomb went off in Canada from a terrorist, i believe the army would undoubtedly get an extremely enhanced Budget and the Canadian public would get a little slap in the face of a wake up call that would bring HUGE support to the Canadian forces (hopefully). although don't get me wrong i don't like to hear or see of innocent people dying.

First of all, yes, it sounds horribly wrong, and you should probably think about re-phrasing it.

Secondly, I think the Canadian public would be more likely to stick it's collective head in the sand, and insist we pull out of Afghanistan.
 
Jaxson said:
"Alot of people i know are talking about how if we send troops over there its only a matter of time before we get hit over here... I will sit there, and listen to what they have to say respectfully, not saying what i am thinking... And at the end of the conversation all i have to say is that its alot harder for them to plan their attacks when theres a large group of Canadian Commandos knocking on their door" -hunter911


as wrong as this will sound but it would almost be a good thing if a bomb went off in Canada from a terrorist, i believe the army would undoubtedly get an extremely enhanced Budget and the Canadian public would get a little slap in the face of a wake up call that would bring HUGE support to the Canadian forces (hopefully). although don't get me wrong i don't like to hear or see of innocent people dying.

How quickly your hope for something like that would change if your friends or family were those that were hurt or killed. Grow up!
 
well i dont know how to rephrase it other wise id of never said it that way in the beggining so let me just say, im sorry to everyone it offends and in no way do i mean we should infact be bombed or anything such as that.. im just saying if people THOUGHT it was an actual threat to canada, the millitary would probably have more support... in my opinion.


dragoon, like i just re-said i dont mean we shoudl actually be bombed, perhaps i said the Very wrong thing, i meant, if people didnt think it could never happen to us...
 
Jaxson...........I'll try another approach and see if I'm getting your drift........

In a fist fight, a guy generally get's much more motivated after getting popped in the nose that first time...........

I think your point was, the Canadian public would become much more engaged if they did get that pop in the nose.....

Was this what you were getting at?
 
yes, but i didnt mean that i WANT it to happen, by far that is the complete opposite of what i meant to say or want to happen.
 
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