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Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle - RG-31, LAV Coyote, and (partial) G-Wagon Replacement

Kirkhill said:
Agreed entirely. And we (Canadians broadly and the CF in particular) are just going to have to suck up the logistics bill as a cost of doing business.

Good. With a hard cap of the Reg F at 68000 and reductions to planned defence expenditures, an increased support bill means money and people to provide that support will have to come from somewhere else.  So, with mulitple fleets requiring multiple spares and multiple sets of different tooling and multiple maintainers, where will we find other divestments to pay for them?

It's glib and ignoring reality to say "Well, that's just a cost of doing business."  Someone has to pay those costs - and no one, to date, has identified where the money and people to pay the bill will come from.  Option B, of course, is to have fleets of vehicles broken, rusting and unusable...
 
dapaterson said:
Good. With a hard cap of the Reg F at 68000 and reductions to planned defence expenditures, an increased support bill means money and people to provide that support will have to come from somewhere else.  So, with mulitple fleets requiring multiple spares and multiple sets of different tooling and multiple maintainers, where will we find other divestments to pay for them?

It's glib and ignoring reality to say "Well, that's just a cost of doing business."  Someone has to pay those costs - and no one, to date, has identified where the money and people to pay the bill will come from.  Option B, of course, is to have fleets of vehicles broken, rusting and unusable...

Which is why we have massive amounts of vehicles sitting in VOR right now.  It seems that some people forget that "Administration" is in fact a Principle of War.  Mind you I think what is needed is less *****ing and whining and more proactive approaches to things.  I know when I first arrived at the 3rd Bn people were commonly complaining about various equipment deficiencies, supply problems, etc.  However, nobody was taking the actual time to address any of these issues with paperwork i.e. UCRs or having any focus groups to come up with ideas to solve the problems.  Their has been a significant change over the past year initiated by the leadership at my Bn and their is a new sort of Can-Do attitude in how we as an organization approach things and the results speak for themselves.

This biggest problem with any large organization is that often times higher ups are unaware of the problems faced by subordinate units, commands, organizations, etc.  Their needs to be two-way communication all along the chain of command.  This is why following the administrative process is so critical because its the only way to identify deficiencies and sort them out.

Truth be told, as a young officer, before the current chain of command under Col Quick at my Bn came in I and my peers had no idea what a UCR was or how to properly staff one.  We would simply say "This is Junk" the CO really pushed down the importance of administration and it had a very positive effect IMO.  Its up to us to provide recommendations on this stuff to the leadership.  If they don't take our recommendation for whatever reason then tough but I think part of the problem is people aren't following through with this process when identifying deficiencies and are simply saying, like you said dapaterson, "Well, that's just the cost of doing business".
 
DAP ... it is not JUST a cost of doing business.  It is THE cost of doing business.

Just like politicians would rather open a new hospital than staff, maintain and keep existing ones technically relevant so they would rather buy Leo2s and CC-177s than staff, maintain and upgrade old Lynxes.

(Why Lynxes you ask? Because an air transportable, LAPESable, Chinookable, amphibious vehicle that was as useful in the Canadian North as it was in the Fulda Gap is as relevant now as it was in 1964.  Add a modern Cat engine to it for fleet commonality, beef up the suspension and add band tracks and you have done to the M114 exactly that which has been done to its equally aged sisters the M113s.  Curiously the Old M113s at 9 to 12 tonnes weight were more deployable, and thus more useful than the New M113s at 15 to 18 tonnes weight and the New LAV-Hs which are going to drive towards 25 tonnes, or even the TAPVs at 14 tonnes.  New and Improved does not always equal better.  It may just mean that the old screw driver was damaged when it was used as a hammer).

If there is a cap on PYs and Dollars, and I know there is, then the solution, for a peacetime army, is to do less of everything.  Not to start ditching capabilities.

Also, the solution, can be found in part by putting Reg Force personnel into the most highly skilled trades that need to be performed in the face of the enemy,  in part by outsourcing to the civilian world fleet maintenance (with DND QC on-site - just like a federal meat inspector at a packing plant), and in part by tasking the reserves with tasks that they can learn in the very limited hours available to them.  I would suggest that transport drivers, basic infantry skills and basic vehicle patrol/command and gunnery skills are all possibilities.

As Stymiest says Administration is a Principle of War. 

For a Peace Time army, Administration has to be emphasized.

The Operational Force will never be big enough.  It will always have to be augmented, from national resources like the Reserves, by co-operation with Allies, and by having the civilian world engaged where and when necessary.

One of the world's most successful campaigns ever, "Corporal Jack" Churchill's march to Blenheim from the Netherlands was predominantly supported by civilian suppliers and transport.

Churchill earned his nickname with the troops precisely because they felt that he understood and cared for their needs as well as their Corporals.  They appreciated new shoes at regular intervals on the march so that the weren't marching barefoot, as happened to many other armies, including British ones, as much as 150 years later (heck 250 years if you include the Chindits in Burma).

 
Kirkhill:  You still haven't identified what to stop and what to change to free up the needed resources.  Even doing less of X,Y and Z is a capability divestment - you can do less of those things, or your skills in doing so are not as great.  Pretending otherwise is intellectual dishonesty.

We cannot afford the Army we want; I'd argue we can't even afford the Army we have.  Something has to give.  And continuing to add additional equipment with supporting it erodes existing capabilities and does not provide the capability promised when the shiny new items were acquired.  Support considerations should be part of the plan before contracts are signed, not an afterthought once new equipment shows up.


(I suspect that we are more or less in violent agreement, just using different terms.  "Divestment" is laden with emotion, but it is the best word I know of to describe the conscious decision to stop doing one thing, or to do less of another.)
 
Kirkhill said:
If there is a cap on PYs and Dollars, and I know there is, then the solution, for a peacetime army, is to do less of everything.  Not to start ditching capabilities.
Sun Tzu warned that "to be prepared everywhere is to be weak everywhere."  If we choose to spread all our resources only 1 inch thick in order to cover every capability, then we can expect our capacity in each of those areas to be comparatively weak.

dapaterson said:
I suspect that we are more or less in violent agreement, just using different terms.  "Divestment" is laden with emotion, but it is the best word I know of to describe the conscious decision to stop doing one thing, or to do less of another.
Perhaps "trade-off"?  We need to trade-off in some areas in order to develop strength in other areas.
 
I can see the TAPV being a range safety vehicle. A staff car.  A fake LAV...

I'd like to see it used as a battlefield transport, moving troops around under protection quickly (including moving recce teams).  Force protection for convoy security.

We use the MSVS for transport all the time but we will never use it overseas so we need to train how we fight.  We don't have anything to use instead of the MSVS though and I'm sure we won't get enough TAPVs to move around whole companies at a time.
 
dapaterson said:
Kirkhill:  You still haven't identified what to stop and what to change to free up the needed resources.  Even doing less of X,Y and Z is a capability divestment - you can do less of those things, or your skills in doing so are not as great.  Pretending otherwise is intellectual dishonesty.

We cannot afford the Army we want; I'd argue we can't even afford the Army we have.  Something has to give.  And continuing to add additional equipment with supporting it erodes existing capabilities and does not provide the capability promised when the shiny new items were acquired.  Support considerations should be part of the plan before contracts are signed, not an afterthought once new equipment shows up.


(I suspect that we are more or less in violent agreement, just using different terms.  "Divestment" is laden with emotion, but it is the best word I know of to describe the conscious decision to stop doing one thing, or to do less of another.)


We are in violent agreement DAP. 

I agree we can't afford the army we want, not on the budget available.  Therefore we will have to divest ourselves of something(s).

And McG you and Sun Tzu are equally correct.

However I suspect that even Sun Tzu would have accepted that a tradesman does better work with a full toolbox, even if he doesn't need all of them every day.  There is nothing wrong with cleaning and oiling them and putting an edge on them and then storing them against the day they might come in handy.  Maybe you don't need 200 Torx wrenches but it would be nice to have a couple on hand, especially since you already paid for them.

Warehousing isn't that expensive.

My next suggestion is probably heretical.  A smaller percentage of the trigger pullers in the Regular Force (and yes, less means less, fewer operations, shorter duration, smaller objectives) and more reliance on the youngsters in the militia to beef up numbers when and as required... but again that means two things:

Give the Reserves realistic training mandates that can be accomodated within the time and dollars available (basically Yes Sir, No Sir, Three Bags Full Sir and can you hit that target?).

When sustained operations are anticipated start moving Reserve Volunteers into the long term training cycle early.

What that model suggests is maintain all of the command structure, all the way down to the section level but decrease the size of the Peace Time section and beef it up on Operations.

As to the employment of the TAPV, isn't it essentially complementary to the existing wheeled fleet, to be inserted into the same theatres and requiring the same logistic effort to deploy it and support it?.




 
In fact part of the military's problem was not lack of money but lack of ability to spend it. I think you all recall having to lapse money back to the TB?
Not to mention having to do things like a a CEAA screening for each exercise. There are lots of non-pointy end things that can be carefully trimmed and hopefully empowering the unit commanders with more authority to spend their budgets as needed and being able to source locally stuff. The annoyance of having to wait months for parts not in the system for a our 3 ton stake truck, when we finally used regimental funds to buy the parts at local parts store and rebuilt the engine ourselves.
 
How about sticking a light bar on top, and pawning them off on the MP's? ;D
 
cupper said:
How about sticking a light bar on top, and pawning them off on the MP's? ;D

The TAPV that Textron is selling Canada is a lengthened version of the M1117 Armored Security Vehicle that they (Textron) have supplied over 1800 to the US Army's Military Police.
 
Well, if it has brakes that are proportionate to the size/weight of the vehicle and axle tubes that don't bend because of the weight being greater than they can handle it is already going to be better then the RG.
 
Tango2Bravo said:
Armoured recce Troops will be composite (a Patrol will have one LAV and one TAPV)

I have been following this thread with interest for some time. What role exactly would the TAPV play in a composite patrol? A dismount bus? Most of the Armd SME's on here don't seem too impressed with the choice of vehicle, so I'm just trying to get my head around how it would actually be employed in conjunction with a LAV/Coyote. So the Coyotes are still on the way out, but will be replaced by a LAV UP with an improved surv suite?

Thanks.
 
Spectrum said:
I have been following this thread with interest for some time. What role exactly would the TAPV play in a composite patrol? A dismount bus? Most of the Armd SME's on here don't seem too impressed with the choice of vehicle, so I'm just trying to get my head around how it would actually be employed in conjunction with a LAV/Coyote. So the Coyotes are still on the way out, but will be replaced by a LAV UP with an improved surv suite?

Thanks.

Each Patrol will have a LAV UP with the Surv Gear. How the TAPV and LAV will work together will depend on the situation. I expect each will have a four man crew. The Recce TAPV will not just be a dismount bus, although of course Armd Recce Patrols always have the option of kicking out a dismounted element.

The TAPV could take the lead bound, or could observe while the LAV advances. I'd have to actually go out and play with a TAPV to make definitive recommendations, but I did run mixed Coyote/LUVW troops for a few exercises.
 
But what advantage is there to having dissimilar vehicle types within a patrol? Isn't there the risk that if the TAPV has inferior cross country mobility and the LAV is slower on the road that the patrol is held to the worst of both worlds when selecting routes?

To my mind mixing vehicle types within a patrol makes no particular sense. Now complete LAV or TAPV troops or squadrons make more sense, assigning areas according to which platform is more suitable.
 
Ostrozac said:
the LAV is slower on the road

After chasing them around Kandahar for 7 months, I can say that LAVs will never be slow on the road, at least when they're driven by Canadians. I can see the TAPV being not as mobile x-country, but that remains to be seen once we get them and bash them around Gagetown/Wainwright/Petawawa.
 
Ostrozac said:
But what advantage is there to having dissimilar vehicle types within a patrol? Isn't there the risk that if the TAPV has inferior cross country mobility and the LAV is slower on the road that the patrol is held to the worst of both worlds when selecting routes?
More likely, the LAV becomes a mobility casualty, and the TAPV cannot recover the bigger vehicle.
 
MCG said:
More likely, the LAV becomes a mobility casualty, and the TAPV cannot recover the bigger vehicle.

In that case, 5C's come into play and the Ech is sent up in a conventional context. The ARV will move anything that requires it.

Ostrozac said:
....and the LAV is slower on the road that the patrol is held to the worst of both worlds when selecting routes?

Don't know where you're getting your info, but they are faster than a Coyote.

Also, all that is taken into consideration by the Ptl Commander and his estimate.
 
Nerf herder said:
In that case, 5C's come into play and the Ech is sent up in a conventional context. The ARV will move anything that requires it.



Hopefully there is a Tank Sqn deployed or there is no ARV for you, bring out flatbed truck and cross your fingers you don't get bumped again while your waiting or during the recovery.
 
Tank Troll said:
Hopefully there is a Tank Sqn deployed or there is no ARV for you, bring out flatbed truck and cross your fingers you don't get bumped again while your waiting or during the recovery.

MRV then. Again, we're talking a conventional context and if it's bad enough, they'll either have to hold tight and wait or BiP it and carry on.

49C should have something in the Ech that can take care of a recovery in a somewhat timely fashion, depending on how bad it is.

Regards
 
Nerf herder said:
MRV then. Again, we're talking a conventional context and if it's bad enough, they'll either have to hold tight and wait or BiP it and carry on.

49C should have something in the Ech that can take care of a recovery in a somewhat timely fashion, depending on how bad it is.

Regards

Your right 49c has to have something to haul deadheads back. If the Engineers are there with their leopard fleet then some one will have an ARV, there was one in Bosnia till 2000.
 
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